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Thread: Separation gone too far - the making of a secular state

  1. #91
    Over 5000 post club rexlunae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by patrick jane View Post
    Prayer in sports has always been a part of the game, at all ages. It so happens that they are mostly Christian prayers, why should that suddenly be unacceptable?
    Would you be willing to participate in a prayer that I designed, knowing that I do not share your religious perspective? Would you want your kids to be pressured to do so, and stigmatized if they don't?

    You are only ok with this because you see yourselves as gaining the greatest advantage from it.
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    TOL Legend Angel4Truth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rexlunae View Post
    Would you be willing to participate in a prayer that I designed, knowing that I do not share your religious perspective? Would you want your kids to be pressured to do so, and stigmatized if they don't?

    You are only ok with this because you see yourselves as gaining the greatest advantage from it.
    Who forces prayer just by having one?

    Apples and apples please. And no, you arent forced to pray just because others are.

    If a graduate gave thanks to allah, in their speech and offered the idol a prayer, it wouldnt bother me one bit, unless they were insisting i do it too, they have a right to their beliefs and as long as they aren't wielding a machete and shouting allahu akbar, whatever,

    Atheists are some whining babies.

    "Around the country, progressive bullies have attacked Christians for daring to put their faith ahead of the pet causes of those who feign compassion while destroying life-giving liberties. What we are seeing is a scorched-earth, take-no-prisoners approach as the wildfire burns across our land. It is not enough that Christians be quiet. Christians must be silenced and punished. Their faith cannot be respected. Legislation that ensures people are free to live and work according to their faith without fear of being punished by government must be stopped and decried as discrimination...There is one key reason that those on the Left must force their beliefs on the rest of us: if they didn't force their craziness on us, we would never embrace it." ~Erick Erickson
    Proverbs 3:5-8

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  5. #93
    TOL Subscriber Lon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jose Fly View Post
    Except that's not what happened in this case. Had the coach merely closed his eyes and said "thanks", we wouldn't even be discussing it.
    So taking a knee is an exception?

    Except that's not what happened. A government employee, while acting as a government official, went out of his way to make a very public display of his beliefs, and did so in a manner that could be coercive to the players.
    "could be." We don't make laws regarding what 'could' happen. It obviously didn't happen and really "couldn't" happen. Nobody can make you a Christian. You are proof of that (not even your wife can do that for you ).


    Quote Originally Posted by Jose Fly View Post
    Unless you're more specific, we can't really discuss that.
    You are a big boy, look up WA state RCW's and classroom guidelines. It is all public record.


    ?
    ?????? Being fired does not mean you, or your religion, have been "eradicated".
    Talking about the ACLU et al. Everything they do has eradication as goal. Eventually we'll be a Muslim-sentiment where we can't share our faith without going to jail. Many of us will go to jail because of conviction. No government can take that away. I'm tired of the inane attempts. We will have a revolution when that happens, probably my kid's, kid's kids.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jose Fly View Post
    Obviously that's a failed argument.
    You don't share 'obvious' with the rest of the population so your particular brand of 'obvious' is peculiar and all your own. You are the odd man with already obvious and disgruntled tendencies. We all expect you to be the odd man out already. We don't spend our time on atheist websites being the odd-man-out disgruntled member. That man is you.


    So you'd be in a situation where the government actively promotes and celebrates Islam, while refusing to do the same for Christianity. I'm surprised to see you be so comfortable with that.
    Nope. All of them. I'm comfortable with a government that doesn't silence religion. Bowing to Mecca and saying 'thanks' is different than killing infidels. The last Muslim I was in extensive contact with sold me a car, didn't behead me. He had the Quran next to his desk. He didn't bow to Mecca while I was there, but I wouldn't have really cared and would have thought he was sincere, rather, if he had, when one of his cars sold.
    A coach on a field bowing toward Mecca after a game? All well and good. It is HIS expression of HIS religion that he is guaranteed the right to AND that Congress shall make no law to block.


    When you're working for the government they sure can. I'm not sure where you got this idea that government policy towards employees and their religion is "anything goes", but you're sorely mistaken.
    No I'm not. It is my right regardless if you feel comfortable giving it to me or not. It is not only guaranteed by the Declaration and Constitution, it is God-given. You can't take it away, even if I work for all the people (Government is NOT a separate entity, it is by and for and made up of 'the people).


    He was still on the clock and his players were still there.
    Incorrect. He is 'salaried.' It means 'no-clock.' Have you ever coached?



    You can do that all you like, but the fact remains your argument is a failed one. The coach is a government employee who has an influential relationship with students, so when he makes a deliberate spectacle of his faith he is putting students in a situation where they have to decide whether or not to go along.
    No more than the Muslim bowing to Mecca makes me Muslim It is inane to think this minimally as if we are all brainless mindless lemmings. It is wrong-headed and dumb. Did celebrating Christmas year after year harm you at all? Nope In fact, you are better and closer to your family because of it. You are the poster child against such an unfounded fear. It is merely an offense of 'something you don't like.' Worse? It is horrible. You are hating on a celebration, a thanksgiving. All of the US and ACLU should be ashamed for such wicked sentiments. It is evil, wrongheaded.

    Public school students have a right to participate in school activities without the government putting them into a situation where they have to make religious choices.
    No. This is stupid, frankly. They have no religious choice they have to make and government pushed nothing. Government is to have a 'hands-off' approach, not block who a person is, or the expression of who they are. Such is our rich heritage, or a Muslim's heritage. We are not secular clones. We ARE different. The loss of our cultures has been WHY there are Columbines. They are kids who have been stripped of identity and are now only 'secular purposeless versions' of what used to be people. That is the ACLU's and Judicial system's fault. They were inept to bow to these ugly complaining lawsuits.


    Again, what constitutes "loving things" is subjective. A coach from the Church of Satan may believe it's "loving" to tell his players that God doesn't exist. But somehow I don't think you'd be ok with that.
    Of course he wouldn't believe that. He "couldn't" believe that. I've met them. They don't believe that. Again, inane fears drive stupid laws.


    Why did the coach have to make such a public spectacle of it? Why couldn't he have just closed his eyes and said a silent prayer to himself? Why did he have to go out the middle of the field immediately after the game and kneel?
    Realized I share some of your concern. It was politically motivated at that point. HOWEVER, UNLESS there was a rule clearly given not to run into the middle of the field when he was first hired, then this became a religious attack on his rights by default. The problem is the retroactive and vindictive nature of such.
    The only purpose for such a thing is to make a public display.
    As I agree, it was political BUT it isn't the 'only' reason. Something of his faith or understanding of it, pushes that point. Rather than saying 'no' the judge could have spent a bit more time reviewing what are laws are supposed to do and what they are not supposed to do. Such may be the one of the reasons for the demonstration in the first place.


    Of course not.
    I said 'display' so good on you!


    It's not a matter of offense, it's a matter of government promotion of religion in a manner and setting that is coercive to students.
    Yes, but this wasn't coercive. If the coach made kids stay or made prayer in the locker room mandatory, I'd be on page.

    Not everyone is limited to such binary thinking. It is possible to appreciate neutrality for what it is.....neutrality.
    All atheist nations have persecuted any show of faith to death. Muslim nations persecute Christians to death. Any of them you want to move too offhand? Or do you enjoy these United States mostly and always has been, of Christians? Is there a 'benefit' to Christian expression and values for you?


    Your opinions are noted.
    Cause/effect. You can't ignore them. My 'opinion' matters not.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jose Fly View Post
    Where? Show where the founding fathers specifically stated that we are to be a non-secular state.
    "In God We Trust...we are endowed by our Creator...one nation under God" etc. etc.
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    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

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  7. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    I'm comfortable with a government that doesn't silence religion.
    So am I...as long as the government gets it right:

    http://theologyonline.com/showthread...=1#post5078908

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    Out of Order Town Heretic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angel4Truth View Post
    Who forces prayer just by having one?
    The teacher looking directly at you as you don't participate. The kids around you who notice you aren't a part of the group. There are enough pressures on children in school.

    Because that's how it works. That's how human beings are built and that's how a good impulse can lead to bullying and the wrong act in the hands of an individual who desires to use it, or a group who feels informed and empowered by it, maybe even for what they believe is in your best interest.

    Apples and apples please. And no, you arent forced to pray just because others are.
    No, said, the officer, you have a right to remain silent. But when you are we're going to assume you're hiding something.


    Atheists are whining babies.
    That sort of simplified thinking is precisely why this is an issue, but you don't see it.
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    TOL Legend patrick jane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rexlunae View Post
    Would you be willing to participate in a prayer that I designed, knowing that I do not share your religious perspective? Would you want your kids to be pressured to do so, and stigmatized if they don't?

    You are only ok with this because you see yourselves as gaining the greatest advantage from it.
    Christians rule the world !!!
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  12. #97
    TOL Subscriber Lon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Town Heretic View Post

    But it isn't leaving religion alone. It's promoting it, and a particular form of it, in the person of its agent. And that it should not and cannot do.
    Government is interfering. If he doesn't use it to proselytized, there is no foul, at least here in WA. Our own RCWs encourage any expression of mutual values. "Thanksgiving" is an expression of mutual values. Next, and again, it depends on the purpose AND that purpose better be CLEARLY shown for such conviction in a court of peers, not 3 misguided judges making poor pronouncements on their own. It is time the justice system be reeled in. They serve us, we don't serve them. When that happens, it is time as a people and nation to tell them to knock it off. They are not an aristocracy or oligarchy. We are a Republic, the power of the entire nation lies only in our decisions and votes. A hand-me-down directive from the Judicial system is an abuse of and to those rights and powers.
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
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    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

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    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

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  14. #98
    TOL Subscriber Lon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Town Heretic View Post


    That sort of simplified thinking is precisely why this is an issue, but you don't see it.
    No, she sees it. It really is the difference of our expectation. I 'expect' a state that see I have 'unalienable' rights, and further 'irrevocably given by my Creator." Such is a 'deistic' state at the VERY least, not a secular one. So no, we see what juyou are saying but very much disagree with a secular state and believe very strongly our nation has NEVER been secular nor is it preferable. A secular state will not and cannot carry the high values that a deist/Christian state will. It is an issue. We both agree with you on that. We are standing on the opposite side of the issue. A secular state CANNOT serve us nor does it have a desire to do so. I pray one day that will finally click and you'll understand why. I yet think it the one thing that must change in your thinking and honestly HAS to change in your thinking. There is no such thing as 'blind' justice. It never existed nor is it a very good system of justice. It frankly, isn't justice. It trounces on the wrong people sometimes because of it.
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

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    Out of Order Town Heretic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    No, she sees it.
    Well, that would make it worse. "Atheists are whining babies" is emblematic of a certain over generalized mindset that promotes bullying and the sort of relentless group pressure that I was speaking to.

    It really is the difference of our expectation. I 'expect' a state that see I have 'unalienable' rights, and further 'irrevocably given by my Creator."
    All rights are balanced against your neighbors in exercise. That's why you can't stand up in church and let loose with a stream of profanity.

    Such is a 'deistic' state at the VERY least, not a secular one. So no, we see what juyou are saying but very much disagree with a secular state and believe very strongly our nation has NEVER been secular nor is it preferable.
    You have to be able to distinguish between the government and the social order. The former is and the latter needn't be.

    A secular state will not and cannot carry the high values that a deist/Christian state will.
    In terms of moral compass and expectation relating, if a people are God fearing the law is redundant. If they aren't the law is a locked gate on a burning building.

    A secular state CANNOT serve us nor does it have a desire to do so.
    History teaches us that a religious state will only serve a fairly narrow band of people. Even purely Christian states persecuted those within its own belief system for variances. A religious state is like a communist state, pure in intention, rarely less than horrible in execution.

    Our state serves your right to believe and worship. One way it does this is by removing itself from the endorsement of any competing notion. It was never intended to serve our particular faith as an instrument.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    Government is interfering.
    The moment it promotes one over the other it is interfering, establishing. And that it simply can't be allowed to do.

    If he doesn't use it to proselytized, there is no foul
    It is inherently that very thing. That's what I was speaking to. When a room full of young boys sees the authority among them do X then X becomes the pressure point for the group.

    We are a Republic, the power of the entire nation lies only in our decisions and votes.
    No, that's a pure democracy. A Republic reserves protections, rights that can't be taken away. Among those protections is the bar of our state to establish a religious order for itself.
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  18. #100
    Over 3000 post club Jose Fly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    So taking a knee is an exception?
    An exception to what?

    "could be." We don't make laws regarding what 'could' happen.
    ??????????? We do all the time. A government employee at the Social Security office isn't allowed to make racist comments because they could be offensive to someone. You have to wear a seat belt and have car insurance because you could get into an accident.

    It obviously didn't happen and really "couldn't" happen. Nobody can make you a Christian. You are proof of that (not even your wife can do that for you
    Again, public school students have a right to play sports without the government putting them in a situation where they have to make religious choices.

    Apparently you disagree and feel the government should be putting students in such situations.

    Talking about the ACLU et al. Everything they do has eradication as goal. Eventually we'll be a Muslim-sentiment where we can't share our faith without going to jail. Many of us will go to jail because of conviction. No government can take that away. I'm tired of the inane attempts. We will have a revolution when that happens, probably my kid's, kid's kids.
    Your paranoid conspiracy theories are noted.

    You don't share 'obvious' with the rest of the population so your particular brand of 'obvious' is peculiar and all your own. You are the odd man with already obvious and disgruntled tendencies. We all expect you to be the odd man out already. We don't spend our time on atheist websites being the odd-man-out disgruntled member. That man is you.
    It's obvious that your argument is a failed one because every court in which it's been tried has rejected it.

    I'm comfortable with a government that doesn't silence religion. Bowing to Mecca and saying 'thanks' is different than killing infidels.
    But some Muslims firmly believe that killing infidels is "good and proper". According to your previous arguments, the government cannot restrict that, otherwise they'd be infringing on their religious rights.

    A coach on a field bowing toward Mecca after a game? All well and good. It is HIS expression of HIS religion that he is guaranteed the right to AND that Congress shall make no law to block.
    And you don't think Christian parents would be up in arms, objecting that the coach was influencing their kids? If you honestly believe that, you're more delusional than I thought.

    It is my right regardless if you feel comfortable giving it to me or not. It is not only guaranteed by the Declaration and Constitution, it is God-given.
    No it's not.

    Incorrect. He is 'salaried.' It means 'no-clock.' Have you ever coached?
    Nope. Read the court ruling....he was acting in his capacity as a government employee.

    No more than the Muslim bowing to Mecca makes me Muslim
    This isn't about "making them Muslim"; it's about a public school official putting students in a situation where they have to make religious choices. That's illegal. You can stamp your feet and wave your arms all you like, but the reality remains the same.

    Did celebrating Christmas year after year harm you at all? Nope In fact, you are better and closer to your family because of it. You are the poster child against such an unfounded fear. It is merely an offense of 'something you don't like.' Worse? It is horrible. You are hating on a celebration, a thanksgiving. All of the US and ACLU should be ashamed for such wicked sentiments. It is evil, wrongheaded.
    I'm sure that's what you believe, but again it is a failed argument.

    No. This is stupid, frankly. They have no religious choice they have to make and government pushed nothing.
    When their coach goes out of his way to make a public spectacle of his faith, the players are faced with a choice.....do they go along with it, ignore it, or object? The government is not supposed to put public school students in that situation.

    Government is to have a 'hands-off' approach
    Exactly! And when he is in his capacity as a coach, he is a representative of the government. His actions were hardly "hands off", were they?

    Of course he wouldn't believe that. He "couldn't" believe that. I've met them. They don't believe that.
    You're missing the point, but that's hardly surprising.

    Realized I share some of your concern. It was politically motivated at that point.
    Exactly. This wasn't about some poor, humble coach just trying to pray to God; this was a deliberate political act.

    HOWEVER, UNLESS there was a rule clearly given not to run into the middle of the field when he was first hired, then this became a religious attack on his rights by default. The problem is the retroactive and vindictive nature of such.
    That government officials are not to use their positions to promote religion is well-known and long-standing. Plus, the coach was given a warning and rather than comply, he continued the behavior.

    Yes, but this wasn't coercive.
    Yes it was. That's why the coach has lost at every level in the legal system.

    If the coach made kids stay or made prayer in the locker room mandatory, I'd be on page.
    You seem to be unable to differentiate between "coerce" and "force".

    All atheist nations have persecuted any show of faith to death. Muslim nations persecute Christians to death. Any of them you want to move too offhand? Or do you enjoy these United States mostly and always has been, of Christians? Is there a 'benefit' to Christian expression and values for you?
    None of that relates at all to what I posted.

    "In God We Trust...we are endowed by our Creator...one nation under God" etc. etc.
    That's it? That's the best you have to show that the founders intended us to be a non-secular state? A motto, a misquote, and a 1950's era addition to a pledge?

    Thank you for proving my point.
    "The way to deal with superstition is not to be polite to it, but to tackle it with all arms, and so rout it, cripple it, and make it forever infamous and ridiculous." --H.L. Mencken

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    No, she sees it. It really is the difference of our expectation. I 'expect' a state that see I have 'unalienable' rights, and further 'irrevocably given by my Creator." Such is a 'deistic' state at the VERY least, not a secular one. So no, we see what juyou are saying but very much disagree with a secular state and believe very strongly our nation has NEVER been secular nor is it preferable. A secular state will not and cannot carry the high values that a deist/Christian state will. It is an issue. We both agree with you on that. We are standing on the opposite side of the issue. A secular state CANNOT serve us nor does it have a desire to do so. I pray one day that will finally click and you'll understand why. I yet think it the one thing that must change in your thinking and honestly HAS to change in your thinking. There is no such thing as 'blind' justice. It never existed nor is it a very good system of justice. It frankly, isn't justice. It trounces on the wrong people sometimes because of it.
    Amazing how you went for a whole couple of sentences before you transitioned your demand from "deistic" to "deist/Christian". How long before you drop the "deist" and just let your imam write all the laws? Why don't you just admit you want the state to impose your beliefs on everyone else?
    Global warming denialists are like gravity denialists piloting a helicopter, determined to prove a point. We may not have time to actually persuade them of their mistake.

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    Out of Order Town Heretic's Avatar
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    If we could trust the empowered to do what they ought and be what they claim, then I would be fine with a Christian Republic. But that simply isn't how it plays out, which is why, I suppose, we need grace (and government) to begin with...our founders knew the lessons of history more intimately than we do, though we have ample reason in our acclimated cynicism to nod and agree. Religion infused into government confuses some. They begin to see the moral good as an instrument of power instead of standard or bar. And among the scoundrels who begin with no other notion it quickly becomes an active tyranny.

    One day I believe Christ will govern men. Today, I think he leads us by example and within our relationship to him. And that should be enough. What in the world can overcome a man who follows that lead, not into the corridors of power, where Christ only went in chains, but along the byways and paths of our lives, where humility, love, patience, and the uncompromising truth of grace, of our need for reconciliation and fulfillment can have a far more meaningful impact. A man in love with his wife doesn't need to be told to be kind to her. A nation in love with God won't need to be told to love one another.

    Imagine that.
    You aren't what you eat, but you're always what you swallow.

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    Over 5000 post club The Barbarian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by patrick jane View Post
    Christians rule the world !!!
    At least he's honest about his motives.
    Let's say that I suffer from a delusion. I will call this delusion "Fact-check Syndrome." I respond by citing facts.

    Most people online don't want to be corrected. They do not care about anything that does not agree with them.

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  26. #104
    TOL Subscriber Lon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Town Heretic View Post
    Well, that would make it worse. "Atheists are whining babies" is emblematic of a certain over generalized mindset that promotes bullying and the sort of relentless group pressure that I was speaking to.


    All rights are balanced against your neighbors in exercise. That's why you can't stand up in church and let loose with a stream of profanity.


    You have to be able to distinguish between the government and the social order. The former is and the latter needn't be.


    In terms of moral compass and expectation relating, if a people are God fearing the law is redundant. If they aren't the law is a locked gate on a burning building.
    No, they are either reinterpreted according godless men, or are eradicated. Both are happening else we'd not have had prayer removed from school in the first place nor would we have had religious quotes removed from school walls. Why in the world would a good sentiment from Gandhi or the Lord Jesus Christ be removed from the wall? Why would "In God we Trust" be removed from a classroom? It makes no good sense because these do express most of our values. The one or two oddballs it doesn't? Too bad. One or two oddballs think they should be able to kill whoever they want to without reprise too. When we bow to the inept and inane instead of 'We the People," Someone is making decisions against the rest of us. Law has to have a concrete moral standard and ONLY an agreement upon which those are CAN make for a moral society. We have been reducing down to the lowest common denominators more and more and it is mindless and horrible.
    History teaches us that a religious state will only serve a fairly narrow band of people. Even purely Christian states persecuted those within its own belief system for variances. A religious state is like a communist state, pure in intention, rarely less than horrible in execution.
    History teaches us that a monarchy does that. It absolutely doesn't show that religion will do that. If you are holding angst against Catholicism, it is only one case study and I'm still not sure I agree with you. I don't see religion as the culprit.

    Our state serves your right to believe and worship. One way it does this is by removing itself from the endorsement of any competing notion. It was never intended to serve our particular faith as an instrument.
    AND insodoing, it has made harsh decisions against us and our freedoms, many of them wrong and wrong-headed. Government 'serves me' not the other way around.


    The moment it promotes one over the other it is interfering, establishing. And that it simply can't be allowed to do.
    OR upholding an American Ideal. I was, afterall,"created" by my "Creator" with unalienable rights in these United States where we "Trust in God" and are "One nation, Under God." Whether you know it or not, you are against all of these godly values in our nation and government.


    It is inherently that very thing. That's what I was speaking to. When a room full of young boys sees the authority among them do X then X becomes the pressure point for the group.
    No, especially not in high school. It because an expression that either relates to me, or doesn't. There is no pressure. It is an expression AND an appropriate one. Shoot, I have OFTEN heard my fellow teachers say incredibly more PURPOSEFULLY offensive things to students that SHOULD be cause for firing (but it ain't ). Something like this? IRONY! and horribly so. You are really going to have to rethink. The other is allowed 'because' it isn't religious but it IS religiously offensive. That's my point. You eventually will have to see who's throat is getting cut and whose is not. You are on the wrong side. I think by 'hope' and optimism, I see your point, but the world doesn't work that way. Your 'optimistic' view of government is killing us. It doesn't work.


    Quote Originally Posted by Town Heretic View Post
    No, that's a pure democracy. A Republic reserves protections, rights that can't be taken away. Among those protections is the bar of our state to establish a religious order for itself.
    BUT that Republic should represent us ALL well. I don't see us "ALL" being well represented. As I said, the secular teacher gets away with language, by instance, that is greatly offensive and at times against the Lord "Jesus Christ" and "God" our Father. When the laws no longer are blind and hurt us, you need to choose sides because it becomes "us/them" at that point. The Us/them is happening often these days, and you really are going to have to make some godly choices concerning them.
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jose Fly View Post
    Your paranoid conspiracy theories are noted.
    As is your inept ability to functionally summarize a paragraph


    It's obvious that your argument is a failed one because every court in which it's been tried has rejected it.
    Fail. That's what's 'obvious.' You are the odd-man-out as an atheist.


    But some Muslims firmly believe that killing infidels is "good and proper". According to your previous arguments, the government cannot restrict that, otherwise they'd be infringing on their religious rights.
    Or a secular atheist who sees us all as animals, such that death is of no real consequence. It isn't the religion we are attacking, but the wrong-headed sentiment. See the difference?


    And you don't think Christian parents would be up in arms, objecting that the coach was influencing their kids? If you honestly believe that, you're more delusional than I thought.
    Your inane attempts at slander and mindless side-stepping not-with-standing. I could give a care less about mutual disdain here. When you try three times to make it somehow 'personal' you bore me. It evidences a guy unable to discuss matters intelligently. Step up to the plate and be a bigger man, or just a man.


    No it's not.
    Yeah? You gonna try and take it away???


    Nope. Read the court ruling....he was acting in his capacity as a government employee.
    So? The separation clause is not nor ever was about that. To think it is or did, is inept. The courts are wrong.
    Nobody leaves his religion or lack thereof at the door. Never gonna happen lest we become a communist/atheist state. It was tried and in EVERY instance failed.


    This isn't about "making them Muslim"; it's about a public school official putting students in a situation where they have to make religious choices. That's illegal. You can stamp your feet and wave your arms all you like, but the reality remains the same.
    Baloney. Nobody had to do anything, not even sit and watch if they didn't desire. These are high school students. Most of them can drive or ride with a friend who does.


    I'm sure that's what you believe, but again it is a failed argument.
    This and the rest of this is simply your inept personal slams. I'm sure they amuse you to make them and show you've turned off your mind. I don't really care about your 'assessment of me.' Leave them at the door. Nobody cares what you think of me. I certainly don't value your opinion because of it.


    When their coach goes out of his way to make a public spectacle of his faith, the players are faced with a choice.....do they go along with it, ignore it, or object? The government is not supposed to put public school students in that situation.


    Exactly! And when he is in his capacity as a coach, he is a representative of the government. His actions were hardly "hands off", were they?


    You're missing the point, but that's hardly surprising.


    Exactly. This wasn't about some poor, humble coach just trying to pray to God; this was a deliberate political act.


    That government officials are not to use their positions to promote religion is well-known and long-standing. Plus, the coach was given a warning and rather than comply, he continued the behavior.


    Yes it was. That's why the coach has lost at every level in the legal system.


    You seem to be unable to differentiate between "coerce" and "force".



    None of that relates at all to what I posted.


    That's it? That's the best you have to show that the founders intended us to be a non-secular state? A motto, a misquote, and a 1950's era addition to a pledge?


    Thank you for proving my point.
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

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