User Tag List

Page 6 of 10 FirstFirst ... 3456789 ... LastLast
Results 76 to 90 of 141

Thread: Separation gone too far - the making of a secular state

  1. #76
    Over 5000 post club The Barbarian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Posts
    5,457
    Thanks
    41
    Thanked 522 Times in 364 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    159992
    For instance: Government having a Christmas party at work? Yes. Should be done.

    You'd be O.K. with it being a combination Christmas, Hanukka, Kwanza, Druidic Solstice celebration? Or is it just for your particular belief system?

    That's not a rhetorical question. I'd like to hear what you think.

    Celebrating anything is celebrating. Just don't make these mandatory. Celebrations of anything has no connection to the separation clause because they are all voluntary.
    Then you wouldn't mind if the Muslims and Wiccans brought their stuff, too? Let me know. See, the sticking point for me, is that new exclusion you want to add...

    "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, unless the establishment is entirely voluntary; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

    If you think that would be a better law, why not start a move to amend the amendment? And since the celebration would be entirely voluntary, if your boss happened to be Jewish, and decided the voluntary celebration would be Hanukka, but not Christmas, would that be O.K.?

    Who gets to decide? Can Satanists have theirs at your party, too? Tell us about it.
    Let's say that I suffer from a delusion. I will call this delusion "Fact-check Syndrome." I respond by citing facts.

    Most people online don't want to be corrected. They do not care about anything that does not agree with them.

  2. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to The Barbarian For Your Post:

    Rusha (September 6th, 2017),Town Heretic (September 6th, 2017)

  3. #77
    TOL Subscriber Lon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    8,153
    Thanks
    1,638
    Thanked 3,254 Times in 1,970 Posts

    Mentioned
    69 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    1628976
    Quote Originally Posted by Jose Fly View Post
    Surely you appreciate that what is or isn't "good and positive" is a subjective call, especially when it comes to religious belief. Even within Christianity there is a lot of disagreement over such things.
    A guy closing his eyes and saying 'thanks?' Ain't buying it. Neither are you....

    To some Muslim, Christian, and Mormon citizens, it's "good and positive" to prohibit the consumption of alcohol. To other citizens it's "good and positive" to require women to dress modestly. To some Jewish citizens it's "good and positive" to not work on the Sabbath. To Catholic citizens it's "good and positive" for people to go to confession.
    You are just playing the silly game. A guy saying thanks, or a guy bowing to Mecca doesn't hurt you one bit. "IF" you contemplated it, you'd not be a jerk about it like the guy/gal that complained in this case. It was mean-spirited complaining and stupid.

    See the point? You're saying that the government should be in the business of evaluating religious beliefs and practices and picking which ones to promote. And that comes with a flip side, where if your beliefs and practices aren't selected for promotion by the government, a reasonable person could conclude that the government has decided your beliefs aren't "good and positive".
    In my state, they even list those good traits and suggest teachers use their discernment when such comes up in curriculum, even using those religious observances 'for' the reinforcement of those good citizenry skills.


    And nothing is being eradicated.
    Hogwash, the man was fired. You are incorrect


    You're only thinking of this in terms of your faith being promoted by the government, which is a good indication of what this is really about for you. Imagine being a Christian employee in a government agency where your supervisor and most of your co-workers are Muslim. They decide to hold voluntary celebrations of every Muslim holiday. Would you feel in any way that not attending or participating might affect your status in the office or your relationship with your supervisor? Most reasonable people would.
    I disagree that 'those' people are 'reasonable.' Voluntary is voluntary.

    And what if you requested to celebrate Christmas and Easter and your supervisor said "Well, you're the only Christian in this office so it wouldn't really be worth the effort"?
    And? So I'm the only one there? Congress shall make NO law.....

    See, you can only think of this in terms of you being in the majority position and being the one whose religion is being promoted by the government.
    Nope. It is NOT your or any government's business to tell me when and when I cannot pray. You nor government are my thought police. In fact, after the game is already over? People already driving home? None-ya... You have a 'right' to walk out of the stadium.


    So those who say "I don't want the government coercing me to follow a religion I don't believe in, or spending my tax dollars to promote that religion" need to just learn to shut up?
    Nope, no coercing. Again you have a right to walk out on your own two feet. The right to start a frivolous lawsuit? No, I'll stand up and say not.

    This is exactly what I mean.....you're only thinking of this in terms of you being in the majority position.
    No, I'm talking about the difference between trying to shut up people's values and embrace 'no values' and worse. I'm talking about religious 'freedom' not repression.

    And to you, "getting along" means "the government promotes my religion, and anyone who doesn't like it can just shut up".
    I don't care what it promotes if it isn't against the most loving things. At this venture, we are talking about someone simply thanking God (or anybody) for a safe game, and thanking God (or anyone) for safety, etc. Is it really your intention to shut down any and all good expressions of thanks? Why? WHEN is such against your religion or lack thereof? It isn't, is it? Be honest. In the same way it doesn't offend me, it shouldn't offend you either. He/she is expressing their own thanks for a thing. Why in the world would that be a thing to be shut down? How could it be a thing to try and shut down? It is making a law respecting somebody's 'religious' sentiments against another's at that point, something our government is prohibited to do. Secular atheism is equally offensive. I'd rather see about ANY religious celebration than 'no' celebration because that doesn't support any value. The vacuum left in the wake of denial leaves us all worse off. It is why we have Columbines and more every new year: There is NO VALUE left in the wake of complaint. There is no 'this is wrong' taught in society any longer. I don't care if a Satanist comes and says "First do no harm! then do as you will..." That quote is right out of their writings. There is no opposition to that sentiment that would benefit society to shut off. It is brain-dead to think such is promoting Satanism. It is promoting society. The ACLU is just inane and the judges who allow those mindless suits are just as inept. It is NOT promoting Satanism, it is promoting 'doing no harm.' I disagree with the last half, but not so much that "Do no harm" should come off the walls. It isn't a poor quote. We have grown stupid, imho, to teach 'nothing' of values and morals. That is dumber, more inept, and unconscionable.

    I also have to wonder....if this is what you think the founding fathers truly meant for this country to be, why didn't they just write it down? Because what we have from them strongly indicates that their intent was for us to have a secular government. Surely if they actually wanted the opposite, they could have just said so in clear terms.
    They did. How ignorant of history are you? I aced these classes. It is only very recently that any government official ever thought that separation meant they couldn't even participate. That is rubbish. The ONLY thing they are prevented from doing is preventing religious expression. You know, as well as I do, that a crèche is a 'celebration' NOT something shoved down the throat. Inept and inane attacks are celebrated these days. THAT is why we have Columbines. The ACLU celebrates hate speech, not the rest of us. Think about that. Even you celebrate Christmas. Did it EVER cause you harm? Nope It never did.
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

  4. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Lon For Your Post:

    Angel4Truth (September 9th, 2017),patrick jane (September 8th, 2017)

  5. #78
    TOL Subscriber Lon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    8,153
    Thanks
    1,638
    Thanked 3,254 Times in 1,970 Posts

    Mentioned
    69 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    1628976
    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    You'd be O.K. with it being a combination Christmas, Hanukka, Kwanza, Druidic Solstice celebration? Or is it just for your particular belief system?
    Yes. A celebration is a celebration AND voluntary. Yeah, I may not want to participate, but I certainly don't want to condemn it or make it go away. We had a Kwanza celebration in one of our schools. It didn't bother me. Hanukah either.
    I'd rather see celebrations, if not participate in them, than to have all values and celebration of life eradicated from the lives of our kids. ANYTHING is better than celebrating a video game by bringing a bunch of weapons into school and shooting up classmates. Values of any kind that celebrate life are much to be preferred than the lack thereof that allows a student to shoot up his school without a thought.

    That's not a rhetorical question. I'd like to hear what you think.
    It makes it easier to get those when you use the quote feature correctly. It places a notification that helps ensure there is a response, else nobody would know you quoted them or asked for a response....



    Then you wouldn't mind if the Muslims and Wiccans brought their stuff, too? Let me know. See, the sticking point for me, is that new exclusion you want to add...
    No, but again, I said 1) a shared value and 2) one that was voluntary.

    "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, unless the establishment is entirely voluntary; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
    Again, you read that that religion has no rights in government, I read it that government can't make a law restricting anything religious. We have VERY different expectations regarding the way we interpret that law. Until very recently, it was ALWAYS interpreted the way I do. It is only abuse and harmful reinterpretation of secularists that has about ruined my and other's constitutional rights. "No, a coach should not be fired when he silently prays thankfully on a football field." That is separation taken to the absurd and ridiculous. He was hurting nobody AND it was nobody else's business but his own. The game was over and I don't care who you are, you have no right 'to just not see that.'

    If you think that would be a better law, why not start a move to amend the amendment? And since the celebration would be entirely voluntary, if your boss happened to be Jewish, and decided the voluntary celebration would be Hanukka, but not Christmas, would that be O.K.?
    Nobody is talking about usurping one for another. Why not two or combined? But yeah, I'd rather see somebody expressing values that we all share, if even in a different way. That doesn't mean I want a 'worship' service out of either.

    Who gets to decide? Can Satanists have theirs at your party, too? Tell us about it.
    Ther aren't many Satanists. I'm not sure how much we'd hold in common as far as values are concerned. That said, if they threw one and invited me, we are still talking voluntary attendance, no? Sure. Let them if they desire. Satanists don't pray to Satan, so there'd be no bow to him on the field. If there was, how would you know? If he is silent about it, why would you care? What business is it of yours or mine?
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

  6. The Following User Says Thank You to Lon For Your Post:

    Angel4Truth (September 9th, 2017)

  7. #79
    Out of Order Town Heretic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Within a whisper of rivers...
    Posts
    18,494
    Thanks
    2,681
    Thanked 5,964 Times in 3,500 Posts

    Blog Entries
    15
    Mentioned
    27 Post(s)
    Tagged
    3 Thread(s)


    Rep Power
    2147790
    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    "No, a coach should not be fired when he silently prays thankfully on a football field."
    No coach was...Kennedy was disciplined for deciding to disregard the district holding on point, after initially going along with it. His punishment? He was put on paid leave until his contract expired and it wasn't renewed.

    That is separation taken to the absurd and ridiculous. He was hurting nobody AND it was nobody else's business but his own. The game was over and I don't care who you are, you have no right 'to just not see that.'
    Disagreed for the reasons stated prior, regarding agency and coercion.

    Nobody is talking about usurping one for another.
    They don't have to, since the country is still mostly Christian. It follows that most displays will be Christian ones and that most coaches will be in the Christian prayer group.

    Why not two or combined? But yeah, I'd rather see somebody expressing values that we all share, if even in a different way. That doesn't mean I want a 'worship' service out of either.
    Once you open that door what you want won't really control anything.
    You aren't what you eat, but you're always what you swallow.

    Pro-Life







  8. #80
    Over 5000 post club The Barbarian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Posts
    5,457
    Thanks
    41
    Thanked 522 Times in 364 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    159992
    Again, you read that that religion has no rights in government,
    I just showed you that religion has the rights. It's government that doesn't. Government is prohibited from promoting a religious event, rightly so.

    This is not an imposition on anyone. For example, my daughter was an officer of the Fellowship of Christian Athletes. Since the school allowed private clubs of students to use rooms for meetings, so her group was able to meet and worship in school. It's just that the school was not allowed to sponsor or interfere.

    What's wrong with that? It seems to me as it seemed to the founders, to be perfectly fair and reasonable.

    Until very recently, it was ALWAYS interpreted the way I do.
    No, until recently, it was interpreted exactly as written. Madison and Jefferson argued that there should be a wall of separation between church and state. Madison pointed out that the wall protects religion.

    Yes, in the last century, there were a lot of violations by various governmental entities. But we've moved back toward the intent of the founders.

    And that's a good thing.
    Let's say that I suffer from a delusion. I will call this delusion "Fact-check Syndrome." I respond by citing facts.

    Most people online don't want to be corrected. They do not care about anything that does not agree with them.

  9. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to The Barbarian For Your Post:

    Rusha (September 9th, 2017),Town Heretic (September 9th, 2017)

  10. #81
    Over 3000 post club Jose Fly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    3,761
    Thanks
    25
    Thanked 515 Times in 361 Posts

    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    171233
    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    A guy closing his eyes and saying 'thanks?' Ain't buying it. Neither are you....
    Except that's not what happened in this case. Had the coach merely closed his eyes and said "thanks", we wouldn't even be discussing it.

    You are just playing the silly game. A guy saying thanks, or a guy bowing to Mecca doesn't hurt you one bit. "IF" you contemplated it, you'd not be a jerk about it like the guy/gal that complained in this case. It was mean-spirited complaining and stupid.
    Except that's not what happened. A government employee, while acting as a government official, went out of his way to make a very public display of his beliefs, and did so in a manner that could be coercive to the players.

    In my state, they even list those good traits and suggest teachers use their discernment when such comes up in curriculum, even using those religious observances 'for' the reinforcement of those good citizenry skills.
    Unless you're more specific, we can't really discuss that.

    Hogwash, the man was fired. You are incorrect
    ??????? Being fired does not mean you, or your religion, have been "eradicated".

    I disagree that 'those' people are 'reasonable.' Voluntary is voluntary.
    Obviously that's a failed argument.

    And? So I'm the only one there? Congress shall make NO law.....
    So you'd be in a situation where the government actively promotes and celebrates Islam, while refusing to do the same for Christianity. I'm surprised to see you be so comfortable with that.

    Nope. It is NOT your or any government's business to tell me when and when I cannot pray.
    When you're working for the government they sure can. I'm not sure where you got this idea that government policy towards employees and their religion is "anything goes", but you're sorely mistaken.

    In fact, after the game is already over? People already driving home? None-ya... You have a 'right' to walk out of the stadium.
    He was still on the clock and his players were still there.

    Nope, no coercing. Again you have a right to walk out on your own two feet. The right to start a frivolous lawsuit? No, I'll stand up and say not.
    You can do that all you like, but the fact remains your argument is a failed one. The coach is a government employee who has an influential relationship with students, so when he makes a deliberate spectacle of his faith he is putting students in a situation where they have to decide whether or not to go along.

    Public school students have a right to participate in school activities without the government putting them into a situation where they have to make religious choices.

    I don't care what it promotes if it isn't against the most loving things.
    Again, what constitutes "loving things" is subjective. A coach from the Church of Satan may believe it's "loving" to tell his players that God doesn't exist. But somehow I don't think you'd be ok with that.

    At this venture, we are talking about someone simply thanking God (or anybody) for a safe game, and thanking God (or anyone) for safety, etc.
    Why did the coach have to make such a public spectacle of it? Why couldn't he have just closed his eyes and said a silent prayer to himself? Why did he have to go out the middle of the field immediately after the game and kneel?

    The only purpose for such a thing is to make a public display.

    Is it really your intention to shut down any and all good expressions of thanks?
    Of course not.

    In the same way it doesn't offend me, it shouldn't offend you either.
    It's not a matter of offense, it's a matter of government promotion of religion in a manner and setting that is coercive to students.

    Secular atheism is equally offensive. I'd rather see about ANY religious celebration than 'no' celebration because that doesn't support any value.
    Not everyone is limited to such binary thinking. It is possible to appreciate neutrality for what it is.....neutrality.

    The vacuum left in the wake of denial leaves us all worse off. It is why we have Columbines and more every new year: There is NO VALUE left in the wake of complaint. There is no 'this is wrong' taught in society any longer. I don't care if a Satanist comes and says "First do no harm! then do as you will..." That quote is right out of their writings. There is no opposition to that sentiment that would benefit society to shut off. It is brain-dead to think such is promoting Satanism. It is promoting society. The ACLU is just inane and the judges who allow those mindless suits are just as inept. It is NOT promoting Satanism, it is promoting 'doing no harm.' I disagree with the last half, but not so much that "Do no harm" should come off the walls. It isn't a poor quote. We have grown stupid, imho, to teach 'nothing' of values and morals. That is dumber, more inept, and unconscionable.
    Your opinions are noted.

    They did.
    Where? Show where the founding fathers specifically stated that we are to be a non-secular state.
    "The way to deal with superstition is not to be polite to it, but to tackle it with all arms, and so rout it, cripple it, and make it forever infamous and ridiculous." --H.L. Mencken

  11. The Following User Says Thank You to Jose Fly For Your Post:

    Rusha (September 9th, 2017)

  12. #82
    Over 4000 post club rexlunae's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    The high desert
    Posts
    4,730
    Thanks
    859
    Thanked 1,821 Times in 1,161 Posts

    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    733549
    Threads like this are a wonderful reminder that, for many religious people, even in the majority, they can't help but feel insecure. Your religion is 80% of the population? Not good enough! It's got to be 100%. It's got to dictate everything! Everyone else has to pay Jizya or convert.

    Well, keep in mind, if you withdraw from the secular consensus in this country, the system that protects your religiosity and my irreligiosity, you invite an attack on your religion. If we're going to live in a theocracy, I'm going to insist on one that's to my liking. You haven't seen or heard of persecution yet.

    Or we could just leave each other alone.
    Global warming denialists are like gravity denialists piloting a helicopter, determined to prove a point. We may not have time to actually persuade them of their mistake.

  13. The Following User Says Thank You to rexlunae For Your Post:

    Rusha (September 9th, 2017)

  14. #83
    Silver Member patrick jane's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Location
    homeless
    Posts
    26,922
    Thanks
    11,610
    Thanked 13,579 Times in 10,928 Posts

    Blog Entries
    27
    Mentioned
    47 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    2147787
    Quote Originally Posted by rexlunae View Post
    Threads like this are a wonderful reminder that, for many religious people, even in the majority, they can't help but feel insecure. Your religion is 80% of the population? Not good enough! It's got to be 100%. It's got to dictate everything! Everyone else has to pay Jizya or convert.

    Well, keep in mind, if you withdraw from the secular consensus in this country, the system that protects your religiosity and my irreligiosity, you invite an attack on your religion. If we're going to live in a theocracy, I'm going to insist on one that's to my liking. You haven't seen or heard of persecution yet.

    Or we could just leave each other alone.
    Prayer in sports has always been a part of the game, at all ages. It so happens that they are mostly Christian prayers, why should that suddenly be unacceptable?
    1 Corinthians 15:1-2 KJV - 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV -


    Colossians 1:13-14 KJV - Colossians 1:15-16 KJV - Colossians 1:17-18 KJV -

    Colossians 1:19-20 KJV - Colossians 1:21-22 KJV - Colossians 1:23 KJV -

    Colossians 1:25-26 KJV 27, 28, 29 - Ephesians 1:7 KJV - Ephesians 1:12-13, 14 -



  15. #84
    Out of Order Town Heretic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Within a whisper of rivers...
    Posts
    18,494
    Thanks
    2,681
    Thanked 5,964 Times in 3,500 Posts

    Blog Entries
    15
    Mentioned
    27 Post(s)
    Tagged
    3 Thread(s)


    Rep Power
    2147790
    Quote Originally Posted by patrick jane View Post
    Prayer in sports has always been a part of the game, at all ages. It so happens that they are mostly Christian prayers, why should that suddenly be unacceptable?
    The way you can know that's not a good defense is when you realize the other things that would be covered by it, like slavery. Tradition isn't an argument and prayer isn't being outlawed. But you shouldn't have a coach, or a principle or the teacher in your kids classroom leading it.
    You aren't what you eat, but you're always what you swallow.

    Pro-Life







  16. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Town Heretic For Your Post:

    rexlunae (September 9th, 2017),Rusha (September 9th, 2017)

  17. #85
    Silver Member patrick jane's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Location
    homeless
    Posts
    26,922
    Thanks
    11,610
    Thanked 13,579 Times in 10,928 Posts

    Blog Entries
    27
    Mentioned
    47 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    2147787
    Quote Originally Posted by Town Heretic View Post
    The way you can know that's not a good defense is when you realize the other things that would be covered by it, like slavery. Tradition isn't an argument and prayer isn't being outlawed. But you shouldn't have a coach, or a principle or the teacher in your kids classroom leading it.
    That last sentence seems very un-American to me.
    1 Corinthians 15:1-2 KJV - 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV -


    Colossians 1:13-14 KJV - Colossians 1:15-16 KJV - Colossians 1:17-18 KJV -

    Colossians 1:19-20 KJV - Colossians 1:21-22 KJV - Colossians 1:23 KJV -

    Colossians 1:25-26 KJV 27, 28, 29 - Ephesians 1:7 KJV - Ephesians 1:12-13, 14 -



  18. #86
    Over 3000 post club Jose Fly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    3,761
    Thanks
    25
    Thanked 515 Times in 361 Posts

    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    171233
    Quote Originally Posted by patrick jane View Post
    Prayer in sports has always been a part of the game, at all ages. It so happens that they are mostly Christian prayers, why should that suddenly be unacceptable?
    No one is saying there can't be any prayer by anyone at sporting events.
    "The way to deal with superstition is not to be polite to it, but to tackle it with all arms, and so rout it, cripple it, and make it forever infamous and ridiculous." --H.L. Mencken

  19. The Following User Says Thank You to Jose Fly For Your Post:

    Rusha (September 9th, 2017)

  20. #87
    Out of Order Town Heretic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Within a whisper of rivers...
    Posts
    18,494
    Thanks
    2,681
    Thanked 5,964 Times in 3,500 Posts

    Blog Entries
    15
    Mentioned
    27 Post(s)
    Tagged
    3 Thread(s)


    Rep Power
    2147790
    Quote Originally Posted by patrick jane View Post
    That last sentence seems very un-American to me.
    Then you probably didn't understand one of the words you're using. Because nothing is less American than pressuring kids to conform. If you want your kid to get religious instruction at school send him to a religious school. The nuns are waiting.

    And man are they handy with rulers.
    You aren't what you eat, but you're always what you swallow.

    Pro-Life







  21. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Town Heretic For Your Post:

    Arthur Brain (September 9th, 2017),Rusha (September 9th, 2017)

  22. #88
    TOL Subscriber Lon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    8,153
    Thanks
    1,638
    Thanked 3,254 Times in 1,970 Posts

    Mentioned
    69 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    1628976
    Quote Originally Posted by Town Heretic View Post
    No coach was...Kennedy was disciplined for deciding to disregard the district holding on point, after initially going along with it. His punishment? He was put on paid leave until his contract expired and it wasn't renewed.


    Disagreed for the reasons stated prior, regarding agency and coercion.
    No coercion BUT to desist from practicing what congress shall make no law for doing.
    Fancy legal dances notwithstanding. The government is wrong.


    Quote Originally Posted by Town Heretic View Post
    They don't have to, since the country is still mostly Christian. It follows that most displays will be Christian ones and that most coaches will be in the Christian prayer group.
    Doesn't matter. I'll ask "Jose Fly" (not his real name) if celebrating Christmas with his family was a benefit or a hindrance to his life. He won't be able to debate this point, neither you. Celebration of human values is always a benefit to the US.


    Quote Originally Posted by Town Heretic View Post
    Once you open that door what you want won't really control anything.
    Exactly. "No Law." If a religion doesn't attack anything of our nation, leave it completely alone.
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

  23. #89
    I am Miss America because I say so, you must agree Angel4Truth's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Somewhere between heaven and hell
    Posts
    16,767
    Thanks
    25,324
    Thanked 17,626 Times in 11,134 Posts

    Blog Entries
    52
    Mentioned
    22 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)


    Rep Power
    2147720
    Quote Originally Posted by jgarden View Post
    “If I could conceive that the general government might ever be so administered as to render the liberty of conscience insecure, I beg you will be persuaded, that no one would be more zealous than myself to establish effectual barriers against the horrors of spiritual tyranny, and every species of religious persecution.”
    ~ Founding Father George Washington, letter to the United Baptist Chamber of Virginia, May 1789


    “The Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion.”
    ~ 1797 Treaty of Tripoli signed by Founding Father John Adams


    “Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, then that of blindfolded fear.”
    ~ Founding Father Thomas Jefferson, letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787


    “The civil government functions with complete success by the total separation of the Church from the State.”
    ~ Founding Father James Madison, 1819, Writings, 8:432, quoted from Gene Garman, “Essays In Addition to America’s Real Religion”


    “Persecution is not an original feature in any religion; but it is always the strongly marked feature of all religions established by law. Take away the law-establishment, and every religion re-assumes its original benignity.”
    ~ Thomas Paine, The Rights of Man, 1791


    “No religious doctrine shall be established by law.”
    ~ Founding Father Elbridge Gerry, Annals of Congress 1:729-731


    http://www.addictinginfo.org/2013/07...ans-will-hate/

    You do know those quotes are about one christian denomination, trying to be in front of another and have nothing to do with lack of religion or other faiths?

    They wanted universalism, which back then, meant all christian denominations were equal (
    Baptists, Methodists, Lutherans, Catholics, etc..

    It meant something different then, then it does today.
    <a href=http://theologyonline.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=23146&d=1455650224 target=_blank>http://theologyonline.com/attachment...6&d=1455650224</a>

    "Around the country, progressive bullies have attacked Christians for daring to put their faith ahead of the pet causes of those who feign compassion while destroying life-giving liberties. What we are seeing is a scorched-earth, take-no-prisoners approach as the wildfire burns across our land. It is not enough that Christians be quiet. Christians must be silenced and punished. Their faith cannot be respected. Legislation that ensures people are free to live and work according to their faith without fear of being punished by government must be stopped and decried as discrimination...There is one key reason that those on the Left must force their beliefs on the rest of us: if they didn't force their craziness on us, we would never embrace it." ~Erick Erickson
    Proverbs 3:5-8

  24. The Following User Says Thank You to Angel4Truth For Your Post:

    Tambora (September 10th, 2017)

  25. #90
    Out of Order Town Heretic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Within a whisper of rivers...
    Posts
    18,494
    Thanks
    2,681
    Thanked 5,964 Times in 3,500 Posts

    Blog Entries
    15
    Mentioned
    27 Post(s)
    Tagged
    3 Thread(s)


    Rep Power
    2147790
    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    No coercion BUT to desist from practicing what congress shall make no law for doing.
    Fancy legal dances notwithstanding. The government is wrong.
    No, he isn't being stopped from praying. He was prohibited from joining in or leading prayer with his players. And the reasons for that are good ones. They're the same sort that keep a teacher from leading my son in an Islamic prayer, by way of illustration. It's the thing that makes coercion, intimidation, or other forms of pressure to conform to a particular less likely.

    Doesn't matter.
    Of course it does. I'm reasonably certain if Christians were in the pronounced minority on the topic most of the same voices decrying this treatment would be on the other side of it, outraged (as so many were when Islam made itself an object of study in some classrooms) by the intrusion into their decision about what religious instruction their children receive.

    Exactly. "No Law." If a religion doesn't attack anything of our nation, leave it completely alone.
    But it isn't leaving religion alone. It's promoting it, and a particular form of it, in the person of its agent. And that it should not and cannot do.
    You aren't what you eat, but you're always what you swallow.

    Pro-Life







Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
About us
Since 1997 TheologyOnline (TOL) has been one of the most popular theology forums on the internet. On TOL we encourage spirited conversation about religion, politics, and just about everything else.

follow us