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Thread: Separation gone too far - the making of a secular state

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    I am Miss America because I say so, you must agree Angel4Truth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rexlunae View Post
    So, what stops you? Go do it.
    I will as soon as Jesus comes back.

    Oh, right, you won't be content unless I'm living in that hellhole with you. I understand.
    No, i actually dont think youll make it through the tribulation, since you think what God creates is a hellhole.
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    "Around the country, progressive bullies have attacked Christians for daring to put their faith ahead of the pet causes of those who feign compassion while destroying life-giving liberties. What we are seeing is a scorched-earth, take-no-prisoners approach as the wildfire burns across our land. It is not enough that Christians be quiet. Christians must be silenced and punished. Their faith cannot be respected. Legislation that ensures people are free to live and work according to their faith without fear of being punished by government must be stopped and decried as discrimination...There is one key reason that those on the Left must force their beliefs on the rest of us: if they didn't force their craziness on us, we would never embrace it." ~Erick Erickson
    Proverbs 3:5-8

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    TOL Legend Ktoyou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    God neither wants nor needs a government handout.

    The Founders specifically declared that the United States was not founded on Christianity for one very simple reason; they saw what it did to Christianity in Europe, and being predominately Christian, they wanted no part of it in their new nation.
    baloney. Don't be a pest.
    Quote Originally Posted by marhig View Post
    Christian theology isn't to be in Christ.


    So, what?

    believe it!

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  5. #33
    TOL Subscriber Lon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Town Heretic View Post
    I don't see how, given an atheist has essentially settled the question against. A secular state isn't concerned with the question. It's indifferent in form and supportive of the individual's right to any conclusion.
    No, the more a body goes secular, the more against religion it is. As to Democrats, a large government means a large godless body that already thinks it rules people rather than vise versa. To me? It looks like unwilling dupe to me. We are not better off since 1963 when prayer was removed. It was a wrong decision for our country. Every attempt, I see, is "this is the way it 'was' supposed to be." Well no. One day you may realize there is no such thing as 'unbiased' and there never has been. I defy anybody to find that government. A secular government in the United States will merely give one group power over the other, as it is doing now. The 'majority' is quickly becoming godless and moraless and perpetuating, by absence, godless atheism. We are becoming that state. Blinders will help no Christian. We are either part of the onslaught problem, blindly, willingly, or we see what is being done and can stand against it. I do NOT favor a godless society. Right now, government is a huge talking point and preoccupation in this country. As such, a godless state will effect a godless society. Separation of church and state never meant this, but that IS the direction. It is an abuse as well as brainwashing. I'm not a dupe. I see what is happening. The rest will have to figure this out on their own, and probably when it is too late. Your children and grandchildren will inherit what you leave them.
    I'm a firm believer in rights, but I don't know that I'd call any of them religious outside of the literal right to practice your faith unmolested. Mostly, it seems to me that rights work for everyone, including the religious. So the right to speak is just that. The right to assemble peacefully is just that, and so on.
    A secular government molests. You are hoping for one ideal, but you will end up with quite another. It is inevitable. My hand will show historically as being against and opposed, even if I have to give my life for these freedoms.

    Matt's wrong. Coercion is a real concern. At a public school you have to keep that in mind. Not kneeling on the field isn't denying you the right to pray, or to believe. The coach has to understand that he's acting as a representative of his school in that moment and the school can't favor any particular faith over another. That's not its role. So no praying toward Mecca with a handful of students at the end of the game.
    NOBODY has a clue what that coach was doing. It is a law based on 'presumption' and you nor I have a right to say boo. Matt was correct. Lawyers and judges are wrong. This IS the problem with this country and you've taken the Kool-Aid. You were before you became a Christian. It is my belief, this is going to be one of the last vestiges that Christ will change in you. I believe, as smart as you are, that you are just ignorant. Christ will change this in you. I'm convinced of it. I'm just giving it and Him time. You will come, eventually, to seeing what the justice system, secular and unchecked, is doing to this country. You know they are. When the vast majority is against their rulings, yet they do it anyway in spite, despite, they are no longer serving this nation by and for the people. They are serving their OWN agenda and looking for that secular utopian that CANNOT ever exist. Justice is Justice. In that sense, there is no 'blind' else it isn't true 'justice.' It is just someone's interpretation ideal at that point and it is NOT mine. That either makes me a criminal by thought, or it makes them so. One of us doesn't stand for the United States or the Constitution at that point. When you are ready to put me in jail, or release me, that is when you will have to eventually join a side and it will no longer be a 'secular' decision. It will be based upon my God-given blessings, perhaps rights. If I have a right to live, I have a right to bow on a field. It is nobody's business. It really, truly isn't. There is no freedom for me when the government says 'no.' Frankly, it has NO right to do so. I deny them that right by my own God-given right. You are thinking Government can settle everything. It cannot. I have a higher calling and in this United States, by and for me, no authority. They serve me, not vice versa.

    Well, I believe all rights are God given so I'm not going to argue that. I don't think there's a conflict in that regard here. As a private individual it's entirely his business. And if anyone fires or penalizes him for his private faith I'll take it up pro bono. As an ambassador of the school? Different animal.
    No it is not. You don't have a right. The school doesn't have a right. He was basically accused regardless. NOBODY heard his prayer. We are not the thought police OR the kneel or stand police. It went too far. The court and district were wrong. It is frankly atheism AND an infringement on his rights. You don't have a right, not to be offended. School policy must be cited that "no school employee may kneel." It'd be a stupidity. What for? All because someone's WRONG sensibility is offended. His right is being obstructed. NOBODY can tell a teacher not to pray at school. Nobody. It cannot be done. Praying at commencement etc. is a bit of a different issue. This one? Dumb, frankly. Undiscerning, frankly.


    You do if it's offered by a business holding itself out to the public and you have the money to purchase it. More to the point, the baker has no right to refuse black people, or Christians, or gays the right to purchase what he's holding out for sale. Now if they aren't wearing shoes, shirts it's another thing...except in the Keys, of course.
    Er, NONE of them need a cake. It is a frivolity. Affirmative action went too far. It is time the pendulum swing come back. Note you did not post 'white' in your quote. It speaks for itself. All of this mess is simply wrong and the courts inept. I posit, you cannot make an anti-discriminatory policy without discriminating itself. It becomes 'anti-white' at its extreme, just as a secular government, at the extreme (where we are headed) is atheism, not friendly at all to religion of any kind. Did you think "don't kneel" was Christian friendly? It is 'anti-' We all should really re-examine anytime when we are anti-Christ and/or perceived as anti-Christ. I'd rather be 'politically' wrong than Spiritually wrong. My allegiance is first to Christ. Any government man or woman must ever hold that litmus constantly up to his/her own inspection for Christ. It IS the mark of the beast. As a public school teacher, I was and am ever mindful of a compromise that compromises me.


    You do in his capacity as an agent of the school.
    You are upholding the idea that expression of religion is 'favoring' that particular. Nope. ANY expression may benefit our society at large. A Muslim may bow to Mecca after a game. Does it 'force' anything? Nope. Promote it? Nope, just promote a value. Nobody is encouraged to pray to Mecca by such. The government, and sometimes you, are caught up in idiocy that says we cannot have any public display of faith. This is wrong. Imh and biblical opinion, this is from the devil. It is satanic.
    And we are a secular state.
    Getting more so.
    We always have been.
    Incorrect. You can be a Christian AND carry your Christian values into office. We still have government chaplains, etc. etc. We are at least a theocratic respecter by nation.

    "In God we Trust... One nation, Under God...Endowed by our Creator...."
    THIS is our legacy, not what is currently attempted to shove down our throats. It is time for public schools to end. We need Christian schools that are affordable and against a secular training. Economics makes it very hard for parents to raise kids against secularization (godlessness). It can happen, but effort is thrown after 'secular' (godlessness). The void has an effect, in schools and in government. A bad one. You will have to one day, eventually see that. It is NOT 'good.' Sin is a privation. Secular is a privation. Both leave God out, in the wake. Listen to your Forefathers and betters: A government without God will not stand. They said so. They knew so. The faster you realize it yourself, the better. It truly is my opinion, that God will redeem your thinking in this too. This secular sentiment is not of God. You are literally advocating for a Godless government and thus, a godless America by the absence and wake left where God SHOULD be. I am asking you to really think that over and give it prayer and due. I hope you really meditate over it.

    The difference was that we were so uniformly one thing way back when, a lot of the religious trappings bled over into that state and no one really minded. Once we got big enough and enough people of different backgrounds were in play some of those trappings/traditions were undone.
    AND we were better off for it. Granted there were problems. A secular government ALSO has problems. Frankly, these are far far worse. There is 'godlessness' in the wake of this drive for a secular government. Government doesn't need to be secular, just beneficial. Christianity is the ONLY rule that is truly beneficial to all of society. Secular government isn't beneficial, it is harmful by negligence AND by ruling against those of faith, as is the case here. It is damage, not helpful, not loving, not right. It is wrong. It hurts. It HAS to be wrong for it.
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

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  7. #34
    Silver Member patrick jane's Avatar
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    Town takes the side of the ateists
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    I am Miss America because I say so, you must agree Angel4Truth's Avatar
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    I wonder why so many ignore this part?

    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.

    So many leave that part off.

    There is a difference in a coach kneeling to pray (freely exercising their religion) and a coach forcing others to also - then we have that the local government isnt congress (states rights and locality law rights).

    Whats its really about is choose today who you will serve. God or man (or money in fear of lawsuit cost even though you know you will win)
    <a href=http://theologyonline.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=23146&d=1455650224 target=_blank>http://theologyonline.com/attachment...6&d=1455650224</a>

    "Around the country, progressive bullies have attacked Christians for daring to put their faith ahead of the pet causes of those who feign compassion while destroying life-giving liberties. What we are seeing is a scorched-earth, take-no-prisoners approach as the wildfire burns across our land. It is not enough that Christians be quiet. Christians must be silenced and punished. Their faith cannot be respected. Legislation that ensures people are free to live and work according to their faith without fear of being punished by government must be stopped and decried as discrimination...There is one key reason that those on the Left must force their beliefs on the rest of us: if they didn't force their craziness on us, we would never embrace it." ~Erick Erickson
    Proverbs 3:5-8

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    TOL Legend Ktoyou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angel4Truth View Post
    I wonder why so many ignore this part?

    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.

    So many leave that part off.

    There is a difference in a coach kneeling to pray (freely exercising their religion) and a coach forcing others to also - then we have that the local government isnt congress (states rights and locality law rights).

    Whats its really about is choose today who you will serve. God or man (or money in fear of lawsuit cost even though you know you will win)
    Yes, it meant one does not have to be part of Church of England; other denominations were permitted for all citizens. They do not consider non-Christian religions, yet did consider the irreligious.
    Quote Originally Posted by marhig View Post
    Christian theology isn't to be in Christ.


    So, what?

    believe it!

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    Over 5000 post club The Barbarian's Avatar
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    Barbarian observes:
    The Founders specifically declared that the United States was not founded on Christianity for one very simple reason; they saw what it did to Christianity in Europe, and being predominately Christian, they wanted no part of it in their new nation.

    baloney.
    Well, let's take a look...

    Because the Bill implies either that the Civil Magistrate is a competent Judge of Religious Truth; or that he may employ Religion as an engine of Civil policy. The first is an arrogant pretension falsified by the contradictory opinions of Rulers in all ages, and throughout the world: the second an unhallowed perversion of the means of salvation... Because experience witnesseth that ecclesiastical establishments, instead of maintaining the purity and efficacy of Religion, have had a contrary operation. During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution. Enquire of the Teachers of Christianity for the ages in which it appeared in its greatest lustre; those of every sect, point to the ages prior to its incorporation with Civil policy. Propose a restoration of this primitive State in which its Teachers depended on the voluntary rewards of their flocks, many of them predict its downfall. On which Side ought their testimony to have greatest weight, when for or when against their interest?

    James Madison Against Religious Assessments

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    Let's say that I suffer from a delusion. I will call this delusion "Fact-check Syndrome." I respond by citing facts.

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    TOL Legend Ktoyou's Avatar
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    The Federalist Papers, James Madison is not the Constitution. Do not be so presumptious1
    Quote Originally Posted by marhig View Post
    Christian theology isn't to be in Christ.


    So, what?

    believe it!

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  16. #39
    Over 5000 post club The Barbarian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angel4Truth View Post
    I wonder why so many ignore this part?

    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.
    As I pointed out earlier, the first clause provides freedom from religion, if you don't want it, and the second provides for you to worship as you will.

    It's just common sense. If people don't want to worship, then they have the perfect right to be left alone, if they want to worship, they have the perfect right to be left alone.

    If they decide they need government to worship, or to not worship, then too bad for them.

    There is a difference in a coach kneeling to pray on his own time, (freely exercising his religion) and a coach representing the school, "asking" his players to join him in a prayer at a practice or a game.

    In the former case, he's exercising his God-given right. In the latter, he's trying to impose his beliefs on others. No one with an ounce of sense doesn't realize that a coach in such a case is pressuring his players to comply.

    then we have that the local government isnt congress (states rights and locality law rights).
    Until 1868, it was legal for states to violate religious freedom. Then the 14th Amendment made the states comply with the Bill of Rights.

    Whats its really about is choose today who you will serve.
    What does God says about it?

    Matthew 6:5 And when ye pray, you shall not be as the hypocrites, that love to stand and pray in the synagogues and corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men: Amen I say to you, they have received their reward.


    [6] But thou when thou shalt pray, enter into thy chamber, and having shut the door, pray to thy Father in secret: and thy Father who seeth in secret will repay thee. [7] And when you are praying, speak not much, as the heathens. For they think that in their much speaking they may be heard. [8] Be not you therefore like to them, for your Father knoweth what is needful for you, before you ask him.


    Of course, the pharisees had a different opinion. The founders seem to have generally gone with Jesus on this one. You should, too.
    Let's say that I suffer from a delusion. I will call this delusion "Fact-check Syndrome." I respond by citing facts.

    Most people online don't want to be corrected. They do not care about anything that does not agree with them.

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    Over 3000 post club Jose Fly's Avatar
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    Again, if the founders didn't intend for us to be a secular state, what did they intend?
    "The way to deal with superstition is not to be polite to it, but to tackle it with all arms, and so rout it, cripple it, and make it forever infamous and ridiculous." --H.L. Mencken

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    Silver Member patrick jane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jose Fly View Post
    Again, if the founders didn't intend for us to be a secular state, what did they intend?
    Obviously, they intended for America to be a Godless, atheist, secular state with transgender bathrooms and open borders
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  20. #42
    I am Miss America because I say so, you must agree Angel4Truth's Avatar
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    Since i see flys post in your response pj, to his question, the intent was that all christian sects could follow their own beliefs without government interference (england had state and government mixed and they didnt want that here, to be told how to worship the Lord), then once here past puritanism, since methodists, catholics, baptists, etc were already clamoring for the state to enforce one or the other it was needed to separate government from state to protect the CHURCH, not the state.

    Universalism back then wasnt what it is now, then it was that all christian denominations were equal, now its that all faiths are equal.

    So you basically need to know your history and puritan jurisprudence, which is what American law evolved from.

    Loads of people to today have poor history knowledge and havent a clue what they speak about.
    <a href=http://theologyonline.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=23146&d=1455650224 target=_blank>http://theologyonline.com/attachment...6&d=1455650224</a>

    "Around the country, progressive bullies have attacked Christians for daring to put their faith ahead of the pet causes of those who feign compassion while destroying life-giving liberties. What we are seeing is a scorched-earth, take-no-prisoners approach as the wildfire burns across our land. It is not enough that Christians be quiet. Christians must be silenced and punished. Their faith cannot be respected. Legislation that ensures people are free to live and work according to their faith without fear of being punished by government must be stopped and decried as discrimination...There is one key reason that those on the Left must force their beliefs on the rest of us: if they didn't force their craziness on us, we would never embrace it." ~Erick Erickson
    Proverbs 3:5-8

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  22. #43
    Over 5000 post club The Barbarian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ktoyou View Post
    The Federalist Papers, James Madison is not the Constitution.
    The cited comments are not from the Federalist Papers, but Madison did write the Bill of Rights as well; it's hard to make a case that he didn't understand what it means, or why it was written as it is.

    Not to say that some people won't try.
    Let's say that I suffer from a delusion. I will call this delusion "Fact-check Syndrome." I respond by citing facts.

    Most people online don't want to be corrected. They do not care about anything that does not agree with them.

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    TOL Legend Ktoyou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    The cited comments are not from the Federalist Papers, but Madison did write the Bill of Rights as well; it's hard to make a case that he didn't understand what it means, or why it was written as it is.

    Not to say that some people won't try.
    Nevertheless, it is discussed in the Federalist Papers.

    All of this is very obvious to anyone with the equivalent to a BA in History.
    Quote Originally Posted by marhig View Post
    Christian theology isn't to be in Christ.


    So, what?

    believe it!

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    Out of Order Town Heretic's Avatar
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    I'm leaving off a few things I noted before about agency as opposed to individual and I won't address what you think I need to be instructed in or what I've had to drink.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    No, the more a body goes secular, the more against religion it is.
    I respect your right to hold the position, but I fundamentally disagree with it. If our earlier society was an illustration of faith then it's not much of one. And our former errors are a match for our present ones.

    We are not better off since 1963 when prayer was removed.
    You mean the society that was still a couple of years removed from giving black people essential rights within that formerly God fearing republic? All sorts of people are better off these days. But we can do better. I hope we continue to try. The unborn, by way of. We're continuing to fail them. And it wasn't the Democrats you mistrust who gave us Roe.

    I do NOT favor a godless society.
    Me either. But souls aren't won by Congress, or flags, or monuments or words on coins. They aren't lost by them either.

    NOBODY has a clue what that coach was doing.
    We know exactly what he was doing. And I set out exactly why that can't be allowed. If that same coach bowed to Mecca with a handful of kids the clamor would be mostly in support of the school system.

    You are thinking Government can settle everything. It cannot.
    I'm knowing that the law is what stands between me and every well intentioned (or otherwise) guy with a different set of beliefs about what he should be permitted to do.

    I have a higher calling
    Said every guy with a great idea and every guy with a match in the tender who simply believed he had one.

    Er, NONE of them need a cake.
    It's not about need. It's about right. Anyone can choose to be a bigot, but they don't have the right to harm anyone with it. Denying me the right to work, live, eat where anyone else can is causing a harm. It creates ghettos and caste systems. We did a horrible job on that for most of our life as a nation, but it's improving.

    You don't have a right not to be offended.
    It's not about that.

    Affirmative action went too far.
    Arguable, but it's not about that either.

    Note you did not post 'white' in your quote. It speaks for itself.
    Right. White's are the majority and the holders of most wealth and power in our society. Historically we've done most of the discriminating and denial for that reason. I used a representative sample of people to represent those discriminated against.

    Incorrect. You can be a Christian AND carry your Christian values into office.
    That doesn't correct any position I've taken.

    "In God we Trust... One nation, Under God...Endowed by our Creator...."
    But not under Christ. That wasn't an accident. They'd seen what a state putting its authority in a particular expression led to and they didn't want to repeat the error.

    It is time for public schools to end.
    Replaced with religious institutional instruction? That's just ducky, Lon, until the Adventists run your system, or the Muslims, or JWs and that's the only school you can afford.

    The void has an effect, in schools and in government. A bad one.
    Schools shouldn't teach your kid morality. It should teach your kid math, science, reading, civics and history. Art and physical education too. Moral instruction is for the parent or guardian.

    Listen to your Forefathers and betters
    After you.

    A government without God will not stand.
    Governments are people. A people without God are lost. We aren't a people without God. We don't have to paint His name on the side of every building we make to remind ourselves of it.

    You are literally advocating for a Godless government and thus, a godless America by the absence and wake left where God SHOULD be. I am asking you to really think that over and give it prayer and due. I hope you really meditate over it.
    Lon...friend of mine, I advocate an American that stops well intentioned, decent men from recreating the mistakes our forefathers provided a defense against.

    Christianity is the ONLY rule that is truly beneficial to all of society.
    There are a huge number of people who aren't Christian in this society, Lon. Neither they, nor the founders want you to order their existence, well meaning and gentle as that might be. Not you and not the fellow whose Christianity looks very different and much less gentle than yours.
    You aren't what you eat, but you're always what you swallow.

    Pro-Life







  25. The Following User Says Thank You to Town Heretic For Your Post:

    exminister (September 13th, 2017)

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