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Thread: Separation gone too far - the making of a secular state

  1. #16
    Over 4000 post club 1Mind1Spirit's Avatar
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    George Washington.....

    http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/cdf/onug/washington.html

    Here's an excerpt from his prayer book.

    SUNDAY MORNING...Almighty God, and most merciful Father, who didst command the children of Israel to offer a daily sacrifice to Thee, that thereby they might glorify and praise Thee for Thy protection both night and day, receive O Lord, my morning sacrifice which I now offer up to Thee;

    I yield Thee humble and hearty thanks, that Thou has preserved me from the dangers of the night past and brought me to the light of this day, and the comfort thereof, a day which is consecrated to Thine own service and for Thine own honor.

    Let my heart therefore gracious God be so affected with the glory and majesty of it, that I may not do mine own works but wait on Thee, and discharge those weighty duties Thou required of me:

    And since Thou art a God of pure eyes, and will be sanctified in all who draw nearer to Thee, who dost not regard the sacrifice of fools, nor hear sinners who tread in Thy courts, pardon I beseech Thee, my sins, remove them from Thy presence, as far as the east is from the west, and accept of me for the merits of Thy son Jesus Christ, that when I come into Thy temple and compass Thine altar, my prayer may come before Thee as incense, and as I desire Thou wouldst hear me calling upon Thee in my prayers, so give me peace to hear the calling on me in Thy word, that it may be wisdom, righteousness, reconciliation and peace to the saving of my soul in the day of the Lord Jesus.

    Grant that I may hear it with reverence, receive it with meekness, mingle it with faith, and that it may accomplish in me gracious God, the good work for which Thou hast sent it.

    Bless my family, kindred, friends and country, be our God and guide this day and forever for His sake, who lay down in the grave and arose again for us, Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.

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  3. #17
    TOL Subscriber Lon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    No, that's wrong, too. The Fourteenth Amendment applied the Bill of Rights to the states, preventing them from abusing the liberties of their citizens as well. That was in 1868.

    The intent of the Founders was quite plain; they wanted the government completely out of the religion business.
    Nope, else they'd have never prayed before sessions or other endeavors. You are clearly and blatantly wrong. Nice history rewrite attempt, but CLEARLY you are without foundation for your inane assertion. RATHER the Amendment isn't about nonreligious politicians, but about taking no sides. The issue at hand: They clearly did take sides, and that of the anti-theist. You give ground your forefathers and fathers fought and died for. You give their blood away as if your father, grandfather, and great-grandfather's blood was cheap and worthless.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    And that's a very Christian position; God doesn't want government help.
    Over the years, I've found you to be a religious man after a compartmentalized fashion so are confused as to which goes where. God institutes governments. You lose again. You should be happy to be corrected. Being correct and right should be up on your list of desires. You nor anybody else can rewrite history in your own image and desires. You are wrong.
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

  4. #18
    Over 5000 post club The Barbarian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    Nope, else they'd have never prayed before sessions or other endeavors.
    Interestingly, the Constitutional convention proceded without prayers, and a proposal to start each session with a prayer failed to carry.


    You are clearly and blatantly wrong. Nice history rewrite attempt, but CLEARLY you are without foundation for your inane assertion.
    The facts I set out are a matter of documented history. No point in denying them. Would you like some more?

    RATHER the Amendment isn't about nonreligious politicians, but about taking no sides.
    No. It's quite plain:

    "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;"

    So two clauses. The first provides for freedom from religion if you don't want it, and the second for freedom to worship as you will if that's what you want. No way to spin it any other way.

    The issue at hand: They clearly did take sides, and that of the anti-theist.
    You've confused the piety of many of the founders with a wish to impose a governmental religion. They opposed government establishment of religion precisely because they knew it was evil, and destructive to Christian faith.

    This is precisely what Jefferson and Madison stated. And they wrote the amendment.

    Lon, you give ground your forefathers and fathers fought and died for. You give their blood away as if your father, grandfather, and great-grandfather's blood was cheap and worthless.


    Over the years, I've found you to be a religious man after a compartmentalized fashion so are confused as to which goes where.
    Jesus wasn't. Tell me, whose face is on this coin.



    God institutes governments.
    You're arguing for government instituting God. You lose again. You should be happy to be corrected. Being correct and right should be up on your list of desires. You nor anybody else can rewrite history in your own image and desires. You are wrong.
    Let's say that I suffer from a delusion. I will call this delusion "Fact-check Syndrome." I respond by citing facts.

    Most people online don't want to be corrected. They do not care about anything that does not agree with them.

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  6. #19
    TOL Subscriber Lon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    Interestingly, the Constitutional convention proceded without prayers, and a proposal to start each session with a prayer failed to carry.
    Wrong. Me: Link after link. You: Empty assertions
    1787 Constitutional Convention in Philadelphia:"I have lived, sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? ... I also believe that without His concurring aid we shall succeed in this political building no better, than the builders of Babel … Therefore, I beg leave to move that henceforth prayers imploring the assistance of heaven, and its blessings on our deliberations be held in this assembly every morning..." -Benjamin Franklin

    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    The facts I set out are a matter of documented history. No point in denying them. Would you like some more?
    Would like some in the FIRST PLACE! You really shouldn't be teaching college students or anybody else. You fail at accuracy miserably.
    How are you going to combat the archives of the chaplain's actual prayer? Its in the Library of Congress. You lost.


    No. It's quite plain:

    "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;"

    So two clauses. The first provides for freedom from religion if you don't want it, and the second for freedom to worship as you will if that's what you want. No way to spin it any other way.
    Er, no. You are inept and WRONG, again. "Congress shall not..." You turn that around as if it is giving me rights to worship The Declaration already says they are 'inalienable.' I do not, you do not, derive your 'right[s]' from this amendment


    You've confused the piety of many of the founders with a wish to impose a governmental religion. They opposed government establishment of religion precisely because they knew it was evil, and destructive to Christian faith.
    You are mindless in your 'logic' and 'reasoning skills.' Some degrees aren't with a dime for the photocopy. Yours stinks.

    This is precisely what Jefferson and Madison stated. And they wrote the amendment.
    Only in your warped dreams. You liberals always turn it around and get it wrong. You worship at the throne of your imaginations

    Lon, you give ground your forefathers and fathers fought and died for.
    Parrot. I already said that man is you. How original You spill their blood on the pavement to our ruin.

    George Washington's Farewell Address:
    "Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars."
    That man is you.
    Er, On Jefferson's Memorial:
    "...God who gave us life gave us liberty. Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed a conviction that these liberties are the gift of God? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect God is just, that his justice cannot sleep forever"
    Quote Originally Posted by Lon
    You give their blood away as if your father, grandfather, and great-grandfather's blood was cheap and worthless.


    Jesus wasn't. Tell me, whose face is on this coin.

    Ignorant. "OUR" coin says "In God We Trust"
    They were Jews 'taken over' by a foreign government! You are a whig loyalist to foreign rule!

    You're arguing for government instituting God.
    Nope, vise versa: "Religion, morality and knowledge being necessary to good government and the happiness of mankind, schools and the means of education shall forever be encouraged." -Thomas Jefferson



    You lose again. You should be happy to be corrected. Being correct and right should be up on your list of desires. You nor anybody else can rewrite history in your own image and desires. You are wrong.
    =Lon.... You can't even figure out basic html and Vbulletin You make yourself a TOL joke by all this nonsense.
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

  7. #20
    Over 5000 post club The Barbarian's Avatar
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    Barbarian observes:
    Interestingly, the Constitutional convention proceded without prayers, and a proposal to start each session with a prayer failed to carry.

    Wrong
    No, it's right. The motion failed. Would you like me to show you again?

    Franklin’s manuscript of the speech includes this note: “The Convention except three or four Persons, thought Prayers unnecessary!!”15 In his notes on the Convention’s proceedings, James Madison reported that the Convention adjourned for the day “without any vote on the matter.”16 Years later, Madison confirmed the accuracy of Franklin’s notes and mentioned three considerations that may have contributed to the failure of Franklin’s motion: its deviation from the Quaker method of worship, the differing religious convictions of the delegates, and the differing convictions of the members of the Philadelphia clergy.
    http://www.alwd.org/lcr/current-issu...-as-narrative/

    Barbarian observes:
    No. It's quite plain:

    "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;"

    So two clauses. The first provides for freedom from religion if you don't want it, and the second for freedom to worship as you will if that's what you want. No way to spin it any other way.

    Er, no. You are inept and WRONG, again. "Congress shall not..." You turn that around as if it is giving me rights to worship
    I just showed you that although it forbids any governmental religion, it expressly guarantees your right to worship as you please.


    The Declaration already says they are 'inalienable.' I do not, you do not, derive your 'right[s]' from this amendment
    Interestingly, it was the case in many of the states that people did not have that right, because government did establish religion. The Bill of Rights initially applied only to the federal government, but was later also applied to the states by the 14th amendment after the Civil War.

    Barbarian observes:
    You've confused the piety of many of the founders with a wish to impose a governmental religion. They opposed government establishment of religion precisely because they knew it was evil, and destructive to Christian faith.

    You are mindless in your 'logic' and 'reasoning skills.' Some degrees aren't with a dime for the photocopy. Yours stinks.
    Was that an example of your ability to frame a reasonable argument?

    Barbarian observes:
    This is precisely what Jefferson and Madison stated. And they wrote the amendment.

    Only in your warped dreams.
    Well, let's take a look...

    Madison wrote:
    Because experience witnesseth that ecclesiastical establishments, instead of maintaining the purity and efficacy of Religion, have had a contrary operation. During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution. Enquire of the Teachers of Christianity for the ages in which it appeared in its greatest lustre; those of every sect, point to the ages prior to its incorporation with Civil policy. Propose a restoration of this primitive State in which its Teachers depended on the voluntary rewards of their flocks, many of them predict its downfall. On which Side ought their testimony to have greatest weight, when for or when against their interest?
    http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/found...ligions43.html

    You liberals always turn it around and get it wrong.
    See above. Exactly what I told you it was. Your imagination is no replacement for reality. You are dishonoring the men who fought and often died for our religious freedoms.

    George Washington's Farewell Address:
    "Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars."


    Jefferson's comments:
    "...God who gave us life gave us liberty. Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed a conviction that these liberties are the gift of God? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect God is just, that his justice cannot sleep forever"
    (On Jefferson Memorial)

    Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State.
    (letter to the Danbury Baptists)
    https://www.loc.gov/loc/lcib/9806/danpre.html


    It's always funny that people get the idea that if the founders thought that religion was essential to a civilized nation, that means they must have wanted to establish religion by force of law. As you see from Madison's comments, that wasn't the case. They wanted religion in America, but they firmly rejected governmental religion.

    Jesus wasn't. Tell me, whose face is on this coin.

    Ignorant. "OUR" coin says "In God We Trust"
    They were Jews 'taken over' by a foreign government!
    That's not what Jesus said. He said "render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's."

    You are a whig loyalist to foreign rule!
    Actually, Roman rule vs. the zealots wasn't the issue. You've lost sight of what you were trying to argue.

    As you have learned, the founders generally believed that religion was essential to a civilized society, but were committed to a wall of separation between church and state.
    Let's say that I suffer from a delusion. I will call this delusion "Fact-check Syndrome." I respond by citing facts.

    Most people online don't want to be corrected. They do not care about anything that does not agree with them.

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  9. #21
    TOL Legend patrick jane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1Mind1Spirit View Post
    George Washington.....

    http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/cdf/onug/washington.html

    Here's an excerpt from his prayer book.

    SUNDAY MORNING...Almighty God, and most merciful Father, who didst command the children of Israel to offer a daily sacrifice to Thee, that thereby they might glorify and praise Thee for Thy protection both night and day, receive O Lord, my morning sacrifice which I now offer up to Thee;

    I yield Thee humble and hearty thanks, that Thou has preserved me from the dangers of the night past and brought me to the light of this day, and the comfort thereof, a day which is consecrated to Thine own service and for Thine own honor.

    Let my heart therefore gracious God be so affected with the glory and majesty of it, that I may not do mine own works but wait on Thee, and discharge those weighty duties Thou required of me:

    And since Thou art a God of pure eyes, and will be sanctified in all who draw nearer to Thee, who dost not regard the sacrifice of fools, nor hear sinners who tread in Thy courts, pardon I beseech Thee, my sins, remove them from Thy presence, as far as the east is from the west, and accept of me for the merits of Thy son Jesus Christ, that when I come into Thy temple and compass Thine altar, my prayer may come before Thee as incense, and as I desire Thou wouldst hear me calling upon Thee in my prayers, so give me peace to hear the calling on me in Thy word, that it may be wisdom, righteousness, reconciliation and peace to the saving of my soul in the day of the Lord Jesus.

    Grant that I may hear it with reverence, receive it with meekness, mingle it with faith, and that it may accomplish in me gracious God, the good work for which Thou hast sent it.

    Bless my family, kindred, friends and country, be our God and guide this day and forever for His sake, who lay down in the grave and arose again for us, Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.
    Amen. Great post proving the Blabarian wrong
    1 Corinthians 15:1-2 KJV - 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV -


    Colossians 1:13-14 KJV - Colossians 1:15-16 KJV - Colossians 1:17-18 KJV -

    Colossians 1:19-20 KJV - Colossians 1:21-22 KJV - Colossians 1:23 KJV -

    Colossians 1:25-26 KJV 27, 28, 29 - Ephesians 1:7 KJV - Ephesians 1:12-13, 14 -



  10. #22
    Black Rifles Matter Nick M's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    Not on this point.
    His point was to disrupt.

    They have no authority to tell a man he cannot kneel or close his eyes.
    But they can tell him he can't yell allahu akbar while shooting, detonating, or chopping up somebody else. There is the difference, and that fag the barbarian knows it.
    Jesus saves completely. http://www.climatedepot.com/ http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

    Titus 1

    For there are many insubordinate, both idle talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, whose mouths must be stopped

    Ephesians 5

    11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them. 12 For it is shameful even to speak of those things which are done by them in secret

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  12. #23
    Over 5000 post club The Barbarian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick M View Post
    But they can tell him he can't yell allahu akbar while shooting, detonating, or chopping up somebody else. There is the difference, and that fag the barbarian knows it.
    Awww... Nicky's mad again.

    Only nick would confuse religious freedom with killing people.
    Let's say that I suffer from a delusion. I will call this delusion "Fact-check Syndrome." I respond by citing facts.

    Most people online don't want to be corrected. They do not care about anything that does not agree with them.

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    Over 4000 post club 1Mind1Spirit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by patrick jane View Post
    Amen. Great post proving the Blabarian wrong
    I find it interesting that the majority of those Deists would have made the most pious Christian of all of them king if he had let them.

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  16. #25
    TOL Subscriber Lon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post

    As you have learned, the founders generally believed that religion was essential to a civilized society, but were committed to a wall of separation between church and state.
    Your quotes notwithstanding. The ONLY thing those quotes showed was the government was not to interfere. NONE of it suggests no participation. THAT separation of church and state is atheism and an atheist state. CLEARLY they prayed and hired chaplains (still do). Only the inept would read it any other way. Junk commentary and worthless to suggest we have a secular state. A 'secular' state is impossible, because it will always bow to the lowest moral and lowest value rather than the values and rights that are endowed by their Creator. Yours is compartmentalized and atheist by logic, thought, sentiment, and deed. It would destroy everything the Founding Fathers worked at and for. You'd have us all bowing once again, to another monster. I, among many, will not let that happen: No secular atheist state. Your deplorable version of government didn't exist nor was ever desired.
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

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    Over 3000 post club Jose Fly's Avatar
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    It's pretty simple really. The coach was a government employee on government time, which made him a representative of the government. In that capacity, he engaged in a deliberately visible endorsement of religion, thereby giving the impression that the government was advocating for religion.

    Also, in his role as high school football coach, his actions could be seen as coercive towards his players. Would a player who spoke out against his prayer be treated differently than those who agreed with it? Would players who joined in be treated differently than those who didn't?

    A school official cannot put students situations where they have to decide whether to go along with the official's religious beliefs.

    Right-wing Christians can stamp their feet, shout, and wave their arms all they want, but they are never going to win one of these cases.
    "The way to deal with superstition is not to be polite to it, but to tackle it with all arms, and so rout it, cripple it, and make it forever infamous and ridiculous." --H.L. Mencken

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  19. #27
    Over 5000 post club The Barbarian's Avatar
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    Your quotes notwithstanding. The ONLY thing those quotes showed was the government was not to interfere. NONE of it suggests no participation. THAT separation of church and state is atheism and an atheist state.
    Even though the founders were not atheists, they called for a wall of separation between church and state. The first amendment makes it very clear that no establishment of religion was permitted.

    CLEARLY they prayed and hired chaplains (still do).
    As you saw, the founders didn't even pass a proposed resolution for a prayer at the constitutional convention.

    The courts have ruled that "In God We Trust" on money is not unconstitutional, since through usage, it now has no meaning to most people.


    Junk commentary and worthless to suggest we have a secular state.
    The founders wrote that the United States was not founded on Christianity. And they would know.

    To remove the wall of separation would destroy everything the Founding Fathers worked at and for.

    As you learned, they saw the results of established religion in Europe and wanted no part of it.

    You'd have us all bowing once again, to whoever had power to enforce his vision of religion on the rest of us. It won't happen. There are still some places in the world with official churches. Wouldn't you be happier there?
    Let's say that I suffer from a delusion. I will call this delusion "Fact-check Syndrome." I respond by citing facts.

    Most people online don't want to be corrected. They do not care about anything that does not agree with them.

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  21. #28
    Over 3000 post club Jose Fly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    Even though the founders were not atheists, they called for a wall of separation between church and state. The first amendment makes it very clear that no establishment of religion was permitted.
    You have to wonder.....if the founders didn't want the US to be a secular state, why didn't they establish an official government religion? Why didn't they set us up as a theocracy?

    I mean....if we were deliberately designed to not be a theocracy, doesn't that by default mean we were deliberately set up to be a secular state?
    "The way to deal with superstition is not to be polite to it, but to tackle it with all arms, and so rout it, cripple it, and make it forever infamous and ridiculous." --H.L. Mencken

  22. #29
    Out of Order Town Heretic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    We really cannot have it both ways. A secular state is an atheist state.
    I don't see how, given an atheist has essentially settled the question against. A secular state isn't concerned with the question. It's indifferent in form and supportive of the individual's right to any conclusion.

    Many will boo and hiss but there is no such thing as trouncing religious rights without 'trouncing religious rights.'
    I'm a firm believer in rights, but I don't know that I'd call any of them religious outside of the literal right to practice your faith unmolested. Mostly, it seems to me that rights work for everyone, including the religious. So the right to speak is just that. The right to assemble peacefully is just that, and so on.

    Many proponents in government and SCOTUS seek a United States without God in any of our expressions. We've been under attack after attack after attack. I include Matt's post in its entirety though some in spoiler:
    Matt's wrong. Coercion is a real concern. At a public school you have to keep that in mind. Not kneeling on the field isn't denying you the right to pray, or to believe. The coach has to understand that he's acting as a representative of his school in that moment and the school can't favor any particular faith over another. That's not its role. So no praying toward Mecca with a handful of students at the end of the game.

    We must stand firm against our government whenever it infringes upon our God-given rights.
    Well, I believe all rights are God given so I'm not going to argue that. I don't think there's a conflict in that regard here. As a private individual it's entirely his business. And if anyone fires or penalizes him for his private faith I'll take it up pro bono. As an ambassador of the school? Different animal.

    No, you do not have a right to a cake.
    You do if it's offered by a business holding itself out to the public and you have the money to purchase it. More to the point, the baker has no right to refuse black people, or Christians, or gays the right to purchase what he's holding out for sale. Now if they aren't wearing shoes, shirts it's another thing...except in the Keys, of course.

    No, you do not have a 'right' to tell a coach he cannot kneel after a game!"
    You do in his capacity as an agent of the school.

    And we are a secular state. We always have been. The difference was that we were so uniformly one thing way back when, a lot of the religious trappings bled over into that state and no one really minded. Once we got big enough and enough people of different backgrounds were in play some of those trappings/traditions were undone.
    You aren't what you eat, but you're always what you swallow.

    Pro-Life







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    Quote Originally Posted by Angel4Truth View Post
    They leave off "may not prohibit the free exercise thereof. " people are afraid of being sued, so they cave.

    Money is their God (governments)

    I would love to live in a theocracy/all christian community
    So, what stops you? Go do it.

    Oh, right, you won't be content unless I'm living in that hellhole with you. I understand.
    Global warming denialists are like gravity denialists piloting a helicopter, determined to prove a point. We may not have time to actually persuade them of their mistake.

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