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Thread: The Rebellion that Desolates

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    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    I did read you here because I thought there might be some connection to the title of the other--rebellion.

    Here's the problem: we have just one NT reference about the expression, by Christ, and it is smack in the middle of the circumstance of the Jewish revolt. So I for one can't budge from that. He also said it was happening in that generation. Those literal apostles would see those literal construction stones of those literal buildings dropped. It is not complicated.
    You need to realize that both 70ad and the Second Coming were prophesied, and the LORD talked about BOTH in Matthew 24. They asked him 3 questions. He answered, and ran them all together into one speech.

    The abomination of desolation is performed by the man of sin, he stops sacrifices, and makes the temple desolate with an image. This is a fact.
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    They can't compete with a real writer and grammar scholar
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    You're too literal to get it.
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    Luke (Paul) spoke last of the synoptics about this. When Luke writes, it's 'when you see the city surrounded.' That would likely support that Luke/Paul was last of synoptics, being largest and since he said he consulted all the witnesses he could.

    Christ said it was a person who would be standing there; you don't used the verb about inanimate objects; and the same guy might also be in the desert. But that's in the orals and in Mark. But Luke/Paul's warning is there to save more believers; 'don't wait for the guy to take over the temple,' get out when the siege starts' is the sense.

    The person and his rebellion is the abomination, and it would and did ruin the country. That is what the expression was about.
    All Lives Matter --Marcus Sanford, youtube.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    Luke (Paul) spoke last of the synoptics about this. When Luke writes, it's 'when you see the city surrounded.' That would likely support that Luke/Paul was last of synoptics, being largest and since he said he consulted all the witnesses he could.

    Christ said it was a person who would be standing there; you don't used the verb about inanimate objects; and the same guy might also be in the desert. But that's in the orals and in Mark. But Luke/Paul's warning is there to save more believers; 'don't wait for the guy to take over the temple,' get out when the siege starts' is the sense.

    The person and his rebellion is the abomination, and it would and did ruin the country. That is what the expression was about.
    100% fantasy.
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    They can't compete with a real writer and grammar scholar
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    You're too literal to get it.
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    The New Covenant preceded the Old Covenant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    The person and his rebellion is the abomination, and it would and did ruin the country. That is what the expression was about.
    Nope, it's about "finishing the transgression". Believe Daniel.
    Put down your commentaries.
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    You're too literal to get it.
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    The New Covenant preceded the Old Covenant.

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    There is no double layer. That is irrational to think so. If you want to assign Mt24B (after v29) to the future--now that 72AD has passed and the earth is still spinning--that's fine. But double,coded messages, nope. It turns Christ into some kind of cypherclown.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    There is no double layer. That is irrational to think so. If you want to assign Mt24B (after v29) to the future--now that 72AD has passed and the earth is still spinning--that's fine. But double,coded messages, nope. It turns Christ into some kind of cypherclown.
    Sure there is. They asked 3 questions.
    Put down your commentaries and dig into the Holy Bible.
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    You're too literal to get it.
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    The New Covenant preceded the Old Covenant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    It turns Christ into some kind of cypherclown.
    The LORD spoke as a prophet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    They can't compete with a real writer and grammar scholar
    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    You're too literal to get it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    The New Covenant preceded the Old Covenant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    There is no double layer. That is irrational to think so. If you want to assign Mt24B (after v29) to the future--now that 72AD has passed and the earth is still spinning--that's fine. But double,coded messages, nope. It turns Christ into some kind of cypherclown.
    What is the transgression? How was it finished? Use Daniel to answer, I dare you.
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    You're too literal to get it.
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    The New Covenant preceded the Old Covenant.

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    A further reason why we know the abomination guy was 1st century Judea is the details of I thess 1, 2. Known there as the son of perdition. It was all expected in that generation, at that temple. And the end of the world was expected right after, as the earlier message of Mt24A said, sometimes called the Little Apocalypse.

    God did crush that person and movement, but decided not to end the world, and there we still are.
    All Lives Matter --Marcus Sanford, youtube.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    A further reason why we know the abomination guy was 1st century Judea is the details of I thess 1, 2. Known there as the son of perdition. It was all expected in that generation, at that temple. And the end of the world was expected right after, as the earlier message of Mt24A said, sometimes called the Little Apocalypse.

    God did crush that person and movement, but decided not to end the world, and there we still are.
    100% made up. Why?
    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    They can't compete with a real writer and grammar scholar
    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    You're too literal to get it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    The New Covenant preceded the Old Covenant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SaulToPaul View Post
    Daniel 8
    9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

    10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.

    11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down.

    12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.



    The abomination of desolation



    Daniel 9
    27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


    The abomination of desolation



    Daniel 11
    30 For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.

    31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

    32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.


    The abomination of desolation.


    Still ignored by IP the Learned.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post

    God did crush that person and movement,
    Who was he?
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    They can't compete with a real writer and grammar scholar
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    You're too literal to get it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    The New Covenant preceded the Old Covenant.

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    Psalm 41: 9 says "Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me."

    Then John 13: 18 says "I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me."

    Matthew 26: 14-15: "Then one of the twelve, called Judas Iscariot, went unto the chief priests,
    15. And said unto them, What will ye give me, and I will deliver him unto you? And they covenanted with him for thirty pieces of silver."

    "While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled." John 17: 12

    Perdition is from απωλειας, apoleias.

    "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition." II Thessalonians 2: 3

    Perdition is from, ἀπώλεια,apoleia, See: http://biblehub.com/greek/684.htm

    "apóleia. Short Definition: destruction, ruin, loss"
    "Definition: destruction, ruin, loss, perishing; eternal ruin."

    "684 apṓleia (from 622 /apóllymi, "cut off") – destruction, causing someone (something) to be completely severed – cut off (entirely) from what could or should have been. (Note the force of the prefix, apo.) See 622 (apollymi)."

    Daniel 9: 27: "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

    Is the overspreading of abomination by which he shall make it desolate in Daniel 9: 27 the same thing as the man of sin, the son of perdition, sitting in the temple of God in II Thessalonians 2: 3-4?

    Remember that Acts 7: 48 says "Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet."

    I Corinthians 3: 16 "Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?"

    I Corinthians 6: 19: "What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?"

    God does not dwell in temples made by human hands in the New Covenant? So how could II Thessalonians 2: 3-4 be a literal prophecy saying that the man of sin is to sit in the temple of God.opposing God and claiming to be God, as the abomination of desolation?

    The Greek word apoleias in John 17: 12 and apoleia in II Thessalonians 2: 3 are the only uses of this word in the New Testament. The word means destruction, ruin, loss, perishing, eternal ruin. And that word in II Thessalonians 2: 3-4 is associated with an αποστασια, apostasy.

    Paul is using the man of sin in II Thessalonains 2: 3-4 who is the son of perdition - or of spiritual destruction and ruin - sitting in the temple of God in a way that is not literal because of Acts 7: 48, I Corinthians 3: 16 and i Corinthians 6: 19.

    The falling away that Paul is predicting in II Thessalonians 2: 3-4 is said to involve a spiritual destruction or ruin, The man of sin sits in the temple of God which in the New Covenant is the hearts and minds of the believers. This occupation of the hearts and minds of the believers then must be the spiritual destruction or ruin.

    And so, is the focus of II Thessalonians 2: 3-4 upon an abomination of desolation, as a literal desecration of the temple of God which is not honored by God in the New Covenant, or an event such as The Great Revolt, the first of the rebellions by the Jews against the Roman Empire, which was an attempt to maintain Talmudic Judaism, not only against Rome but also against Christ and his Everlasting New Covenant?

    The question of an apostasy happening within the hearts and minds of believers in the First Century is what has to be raised here for II Thessalonians 2: 3-4. In fact, a major apostasy within Christianity did not occur until after Constantine - after AD 312. The Jewish revolt in the First Century was not an apostasy within Chrisitanity, but an opposition of those who wanted to maintain the Old Covenant to those who opposed them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by northwye View Post
    Psalm 41: 9 says "Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me."

    Then John 13: 18 says "I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me."

    Matthew 26: 14-15: "Then one of the twelve, called Judas Iscariot, went unto the chief priests,
    15. And said unto them, What will ye give me, and I will deliver him unto you? And they covenanted with him for thirty pieces of silver."

    "While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled." John 17: 12

    Perdition is from απωλειας, apoleias.

    "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition." II Thessalonians 2: 3

    Perdition is from, ἀπώλεια,apoleia, See: http://biblehub.com/greek/684.htm

    "apóleia. Short Definition: destruction, ruin, loss"
    "Definition: destruction, ruin, loss, perishing; eternal ruin."

    "684 apṓleia (from 622 /apóllymi, "cut off") – destruction, causing someone (something) to be completely severed – cut off (entirely) from what could or should have been. (Note the force of the prefix, apo.) See 622 (apollymi)."

    Daniel 9: 27: "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

    Is the overspreading of abomination by which he shall make it desolate in Daniel 9: 27 the same thing as the man of sin, the son of perdition, sitting in the temple of God in II Thessalonians 2: 3-4?

    Remember that Acts 7: 48 says "Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet."

    I Corinthians 3: 16 "Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?"

    I Corinthians 6: 19: "What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?"

    God does not dwell in temples made by human hands in the New Covenant? So how could II Thessalonians 2: 3-4 be a literal prophecy saying that the man of sin is to sit in the temple of God.opposing God and claiming to be God, as the abomination of desolation?

    The Greek word apoleias in John 17: 12 and apoleia in II Thessalonians 2: 3 are the only uses of this word in the New Testament. The word means destruction, ruin, loss, perishing, eternal ruin. And that word in II Thessalonians 2: 3-4 is associated with an αποστασια, apostasy.

    Paul is using the man of sin in II Thessalonains 2: 3-4 who is the son of perdition - or of spiritual destruction and ruin - sitting in the temple of God in a way that is not literal because of Acts 7: 48, I Corinthians 3: 16 and i Corinthians 6: 19.

    The falling away that Paul is predicting in II Thessalonains 2: 3-4 is said to involve a spiritual destruction or ruin, The man of sin sits in the temple of God which in the New Covenant is the hearts and minds of the believers. This occupation of the hearts and minds of the believers then must be the spiritual destruction or ruin.

    And so, is the focus of II Thessalonians 2: 3-4 upon an abomination of desolation, as a literal desecration of the temple of God which is not honored by God in the New Covenant, or an event such as The Great Revolt, the first of the rebellions by the Jews against the Roman Empire, which was a military fight to maintain Talmudic Judaism, not only against Rome but also against Christ and his Everlasting New Covenant?

    The question of an apostasy happening within the hearts and minds of believers in the First Century is what has to be raised here for II Thessalonians 2: 3-4. In fact, a major apostasy within Christianity did not occur until after Constantine - after AD 312. The Jewish revolt in the First Century was not an apostasy within Chrisitianity, but an opposition of those who wanted to maintain the Old Covenant to those who opposed them.
    100% fantasy. Why?
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    You're too literal to get it.
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    The New Covenant preceded the Old Covenant.

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    No, northwye, what you are BELIEVING about the ACTUAL sense of that passage in Acts 7 is YOUR MISUNDERSTANDING of it.

    Note in the following how that BOTH senses, or meanings, were the case back then...

    John 2:13 And the Jews' passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem, 2:14 And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting: 2:15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables; 2:16 And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise. 2:17 And his disciples remembered that it was written, The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up.

    There was that - The Father's House - The Temple at Jerusalem.

    Psalms 69:8 I am become a stranger unto my brethren, and an alien unto my mother's children. 69:9 For the zeal of thine house hath eaten me up; and the reproaches of them that reproached thee are fallen upon me.

    And yet, there was this OTHER temple, AT THE SAME TIME...

    John 2:18 Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things? 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. 2:20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? 2:21 But he spake of the temple of his body.

    Here is The Father's House, once more...

    1 Kings 8:10 And it came to pass, when the priests were come out of the holy place, that the cloud filled the house of the LORD, 8:11 So that the priests could not stand to minister because of the cloud: for the glory of the LORD had filled the house of the LORD. 8:12 Then spake Solomon, The LORD said that he would dwell in the thick darkness. 8:13 I have surely built thee an house to dwell in, a settled place for thee to abide in for ever.

    Matthew 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

    24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: ) 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

    That Holy Place IN The Temple at Jerusalem, is where that takes place...

    It is in that "house" for Him "to dwell in" that the following takes place in...

    Here is the falling away that is referring to, and all the rest of it, that the Believing Remnant of Israel will understand for what it is.

    Daniel 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate. 11:32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits. 11:33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days. 11:34 Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries. 11:35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed. 11:36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done. 11:37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.

    2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

    2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

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