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Thread: Romans 13...Dispensationally...

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    Romans 13...Dispensationally...

    This post is to Dispys (but all are welcome to post) and was inspired by the following exchange...

    Quote Originally Posted by musterion View Post
    However...you still believe Rome was the tool in the hand of Christ to wreak vengeance upon Israel?
    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    Yes, and that Rom 13 validates that, because the paradox of the Judaizers/zealots was that they became disgusting, the 'rebellion that desolates' of Dan 8:13. Even Caiahphas tried to prevent it from happening.
    Which brings up an interesting question, Dispensationally.

    If as IP's largely Partial Preterist view asserts concerning the role of government (the Roman Empire) in it's destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD - that said destruction was at the supposed behest of God, what is the Dispy to do towards sorting out God's supposed role in governments, even now?

    Even those Dispys who do hold God was behind said destruction nevertheless leave a gaping hole unsolved for.

    In my understanding from Scripture on this, God's putting in place and or removing of governments is a Dispensational matter within The Prophetic aspect of His Two-Fold Purose: Prophecy (Israel and authority or government over The Earth), and Mystery (The Body of Christ and authority or government over The Heavenly Realm).

    And said Prophetic aspect (Israel and governing of the Earth) is presently on hold until the fulness of His Mystery aspect be come in, and goes into its own unique next stage in the Heavenlies.

    This side of God's temporary suspension of His plans and purpose for the Earth in and through the nation Israel over said Earth, how then can God be the One behind the rise and fall of governments on this Earth, if Israel is not presently His focus?

    I'm basing one aspect of this - the Prophetic aspect - on the Israelite Prophet: Daniel's perspective in Daniel 2 and Daniel 9, etc.

    The other aspect I am basing on the Apostle Paul's perspective in Romans 9-11, and Eph. 1, etc.

    Rom. 5:8
    Acts 17:11,12

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    My position is deliberately simple. It is, in one sentence, that wrath and grace cannot coexist at the same time or in the same place.

    Whether they say Rome was Christ incarnate or merely a tool in God's vengeful hand, the preterist position on 70 AD is a flat denial of everything Paul taught regarding the dispensation of grace, wherein God respects NO persons over others (positively OR negatively) precisely because He has counted ALL, EQUALLY, in unbelief.

    But an indispensable foundation point of preterism is that God held a special hatred for Israel well after the completed revelation of the mystery and the unveiling of this dispensation of grace.

    So to say 70 was the wrath of God specifically aimed at Israel denies that they were (are) in fact under grace and throws the entire Pauline revelation into doubt since, if one word can be used to define Paul's life and apostleship, it is GRACE. And in unavoidable chain reaction, if Paul goes, Luke and Peter automatically have to go with him, as they vouched for Paul's apostleship under Christ.

    Further. If God can express wrath on one people (Jews) even though He has SAID all are under grace, then there's nothing preventing Him exercising wrath against ANY wicked peoples...but He hasn't. If He had done so, there would surely be no doubt of it and the last 2,000 years of human history would be very different, and the United States as it now exist would be knee deep in fire and brimstone. Yet we're to believe preterists when they say God poured out wrath on Jerusalem specifically because Israel rejected Christ.

    So has most of the world for the past twenty centuries.

    Best case scenario, preterism is hopelessly confused by false assumptions by which it renders studying the Bible a moot, useless endeavor. People say disp'ism does that when it doesn't. But preterism does.

    The matter of AD 70 is irreducibly simple. If it was indeed Christ's wrath at Israel's having rejected Him, then over half of our new testament books are worthless.
    Not a single cluster of living fruit was, or ever will be, harvested from the tree of legality. Law can only produce “dead works,” from which we need to have conscience purged just as much as from “wicked works.”

    C. H. Mackintosh


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    Quote Originally Posted by musterion View Post
    My position is deliberately simple. It is, in one sentence, that wrath and grace cannot coexist at the same time or in the same place.

    Whether they say Rome was Christ incarnate or merely a tool in God's vengeful hand, the preterist position on 70 AD is a flat denial of everything Paul taught regarding the dispensation of grace, wherein God respects NO persons over others (positively OR negatively) and has counted ALL in equal unbelief. So to say 70 was the wrath of God specifically aimed at Israel denies that they were (are) in fact under grace and throws the entire Pauline revelation into doubt. And in chain reaction, if Paul goes, Luke and Peter automatically have to go to, as they vouched for Paul's apostleship under Christ.

    Further. If God can express wrath on one people (Jews) during this dispensation of grace, then there's nothing preventing Him exercising wrath against any wicked peoples...but He doesn't. If He had done so, the last 2,000 years of human history would be very different.

    Best case scenario, preterism is hopelessly confused by false assumptions by which it renders studying the Bible a moot, useless endeavor. People say disp'ism does that when it doesn't. But preterism does.

    The matter of AD 70 is irreducibly simple. If it was indeed Christ's wrath at Israel's having rejected Him, then over half of our new testament books are worthless.
    Agreed.

    That's largely been my view for many years now.

    Any thoughts on the issue I was asking about, though?

    On God's supposedly continued direct hand in the government's of this world, this side of His having temporarily interrupted His plans and purpose concerning the governing of the Earth through a redeemed Israel one day.

    Rom. 5:8
    Acts 17:11,12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Danoh View Post
    Agreed.

    That's largely been my view for many years now.

    Any thoughts on the issue I was asking about, though?

    On God's supposedly continued direct hand in the government's of this world, this side of His having temporarily interrupted His plans and purpose concerning the governing of the Earth through a redeemed Israel one day.

    Rom. 5:8
    Acts 17:11,12
    He well may be directing matters toward the ends that He said would come. I've never disputed that it's possible. I do not believe that automatically demands He is "fulfilling prophecy" today, as some seem to assume it means.

    That said, I'm not even sure He needs to be directing things. I say this because of what Paul said: the mystery of iniquity doth work. It was working then, it is working now. That may well explain everything we see coalescing around us.

    That does not mean God does not superintend; but the degree to which He is "in control" ... meaning "making things happen" ... I do not know and have no opinion because I don't think I need one. I can't know for sure anyway. No one can.

    But the world, the flesh and the Devil will take this planet on the course God foreknew that they would. I don't believe He needs to be steering it in that direction.
    Not a single cluster of living fruit was, or ever will be, harvested from the tree of legality. Law can only produce “dead works,” from which we need to have conscience purged just as much as from “wicked works.”

    C. H. Mackintosh


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    Quote Originally Posted by musterion View Post
    He well may be directing matters toward the ends that He said would come. I've never disputed that it's possible. I do not believe that automatically demands He is "fulfilling prophecy" today, as some seem to assume it means.

    That said, I'm not even sure He needs to be directing things. I say this because of what Paul said: the mystery of iniquity doth work. It was working then, it is working now. That may well explain everything we see coalescing around us.

    That does not mean God does not superintend; but the degree to which He is "in control" ... meaning "making things happen" ... I do not know and have no opinion because I don't think I need one. I can't know for sure anyway. No one can.

    But the world, the flesh and the Devil will take this planet on the course God foreknew that they would. I don't believe He needs to be steering it in that direction.
    Regarding the not needing an opinion on this...

    Ephesians 5:17 Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is.

    Also, have you ever heard of the teaching that the mystery of iniquity refers to the what of what God is presently doing: forming the one New Man?

    How that it is what is holding back iniquity until said New Man be taken out of the way.

    After which iniquity in it's full-blown manifestation within the Prophetic aspect of things resumes it's long since interrupted course - after this Mystery age ends.

    In other words, this Mystery Age's aspect is spiritual and is over doctrine - not over, or for the Earth.

    In contrast, the Prophetic aspect is both spiritual and physical and is over, or for, the Earth.

    The understanding of which, impacts one's walk in the will of God.

    As will an understanding of any aspect of God's will.

    Ephesians 4:17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind, 4:18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

    Ephesians 5:15 See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise, 5:16 Redeeming the time, because the days are evil. 5:17 Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is.

    Rom. 5:8
    Acts 17:11,12

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    Quote Originally Posted by musterion View Post
    My position is deliberately simple. It is, in one sentence, that wrath and grace cannot coexist at the same time or in the same place.

    Whether they say Rome was Christ incarnate or merely a tool in God's vengeful hand, the preterist position on 70 AD is a flat denial of everything Paul taught regarding the dispensation of grace, wherein God respects NO persons over others (positively OR negatively) precisely because He has counted ALL, EQUALLY, in unbelief.

    But an indispensable foundation point of preterism is that God held a special hatred for Israel well after the completed revelation of the mystery and the unveiling of this dispensation of grace.

    So to say 70 was the wrath of God specifically aimed at Israel denies that they were (are) in fact under grace and throws the entire Pauline revelation into doubt since, if one word can be used to define Paul's life and apostleship, it is GRACE. And in unavoidable chain reaction, if Paul goes, Luke and Peter automatically have to go with him, as they vouched for Paul's apostleship under Christ.

    Further. If God can express wrath on one people (Jews) even though He has SAID all are under grace, then there's nothing preventing Him exercising wrath against ANY wicked peoples...but He hasn't. If He had done so, there would surely be no doubt of it and the last 2,000 years of human history would be very different, and the United States as it now exist would be knee deep in fire and brimstone. Yet we're to believe preterists when they say God poured out wrath on Jerusalem specifically because Israel rejected Christ.

    So has most of the world for the past twenty centuries.

    Best case scenario, preterism is hopelessly confused by false assumptions by which it renders studying the Bible a moot, useless endeavor. People say disp'ism does that when it doesn't. But preterism does.

    The matter of AD 70 is irreducibly simple. If it was indeed Christ's wrath at Israel's having rejected Him, then over half of our new testament books are worthless.




    God had business to do with Israel in that generation. In Hebrews it is like the period in the wilderness before going into the land across Jordan.

    You have too much theology in your head, not history, and too much of it is D'ist which is a huge problem.

    It makes you think that everything that happened from say 3pm April 10 33 AD was an 'act of grace' until midnight 1948 Jerusalem time or some such thing. Get rid of D'ism so you can see clearly.

    In addition, God had told Israel it had 490 years coming in which Messiah would accomplish grace but the rebellion that desolates would ruin the country. Hath God said? Yes. But God does not do whole races at a time and so some of the Jews believed (like the ones to whom Hebrews was written) and they left the area as instructed and they helped found the Christian church.

    The destruction of Jerusalem took place for a reason slightly more historically grounded than you are allowing. There was the rejection of Christ to be sure, but the thing driving Judaism along, for the zealots, was a thing that had to lead to a show down. You will see this if you study more of the history, but that is a sin to you.

    ie, now (the things that make peace) are hid from your eyes has a specific human and historical side to it; the zealots for the law were always going to have the problem with Rome that happened; those who pursued Christ's mission never would.

    A historical knowledge makes the Bible quite clear; they reinforce each other, as should be expected, because it is history. D'ism can't get there and some of preterism is just as doctrinaire as D'ism. Your criticisms of that are just fine, but you need to be more specific.
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    Mystery or prophecy?



    Romans 11:11 KJV
    (11) I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.




    Romans 10:19 KJV
    (19) But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.



    Moses saith:



    Deuteronomy 32:21 KJV
    (21) They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.


    Is this provoking to jealousy going on right now?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    You have too much theology in your head, not history,
    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    They can't compete with a real writer and grammar scholar
    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    You're too literal to get it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    The New Covenant preceded the Old Covenant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tambora View Post
    Mystery or prophecy?



    Romans 11:11 KJV
    (11) I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.




    Romans 10:19 KJV
    (19) But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.



    Moses saith:



    Deuteronomy 32:21 KJV
    (21) They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.


    Is this provoking to jealousy going on right now?




    To some extent. it even happened to Jonah when he was ticked that there was repentance in Nineveh. Paul was provoking them to get more help in the mission of Christ.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    To some extent.
    Then prophesy is going on during the mystery age we are in right now, right?
    Or was the provoking also put on hold?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Danoh View Post
    This post is to Dispys (but all are welcome to post) and was inspired by the following exchange...





    Which brings up an interesting question, Dispensationally.

    If as IP's largely Partial Preterist view asserts concerning the role of government (the Roman Empire) in it's destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD - that said destruction was at the supposed behest of God, what is the Dispy to do towards sorting out God's supposed role in governments, even now?

    Even those Dispys who do hold God was behind said destruction nevertheless leave a gaping hole unsolved for.

    In my understanding from Scripture on this, God's putting in place and or removing of governments is a Dispensational matter within The Prophetic aspect of His Two-Fold Purose: Prophecy (Israel and authority or government over The Earth), and Mystery (The Body of Christ and authority or government over The Heavenly Realm).

    And said Prophetic aspect (Israel and governing of the Earth) is presently on hold until the fulness of His Mystery aspect be come in, and goes into its own unique next stage in the Heavenlies.

    This side of God's temporary suspension of His plans and purpose for the Earth in and through the nation Israel over said Earth, how then can God be the One behind the rise and fall of governments on this Earth, if Israel is not presently His focus?

    I'm basing one aspect of this - the Prophetic aspect - on the Israelite Prophet: Daniel's perspective in Daniel 2 and Daniel 9, etc.

    The other aspect I am basing on the Apostle Paul's perspective in Romans 9-11, and Eph. 1, etc.

    Rom. 5:8
    Acts 17:11,12
    When Romans 13 is not rightly divided, people end up concluding that secular governments were ordained by God.

    That for instance, God ordained Stalin to murder about 30 million people, many who might have been Christians.

    God does not use evil to accomplish good.

    If man chooses evil over God's goodness, God lets them reap what they have sown.

    If they learn how wrong they are, good, but God lets you reap what you sow.

    When we sow evil, we reap evil.

    When we sow hate, we reap hate.

    When we sow good, we reap good.

    When we sow to God's spiritual realities, we reap everlasting rewards.

    When we subject ourselves to the leaders and rulers in the church that God ordained, then we receive the benefits of being lead in a good way, the way of holiness.

    When we believe that God supplies our need from believing the written logos of God as taught by the functioning rulers, the apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers that God ordained, then we can truly receive and live in the abundance and power that God promised
    "And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship and in breaking of bread and in prayers." Acts 2:42

    "Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind" Philippians 2:2

    Pro scripture = Protestant

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    I can't follow the mess and labyrinth of Danoh's D'ism. It's rather hopeless thinking that people take it seriously.

    Rom 13 doesn't embrace individuals but rather the office. We know from Rome's history what it did with some unsavory individuals deemed to be mad. But the timing of Rom 13 vis-a-vis the Jewish revolt is quite a statement. Paul never was convicted of being an insurrectionist like them as we see in Acts 21:38.

    There is no plan for control of the earth through Israel the nation. What Christ and Paul were talking about was the kingdom's power which came and spread the message of Christ to all nations. 'We are...known, yet regarded as unknown...having nothing, yet possessing everything.' There is no confusing mixed signals in the NT about doing another round of Judaism or anything in Judea. But the truth in Christ did 'turn the world upside down.'
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    Quote Originally Posted by oatmeal View Post
    When Romans 13 is not rightly divided, people end up concluding that secular governments were ordained by God.

    That for instance, God ordained Stalin to murder about 30 million people, many who might have been Christians.

    God does not use evil to accomplish good.

    If man chooses evil over God's goodness, God lets them reap what they have sown.

    If they learn how wrong they are, good, but God lets you reap what you sow.

    When we sow evil, we reap evil.

    When we sow hate, we reap hate.

    When we sow good, we reap good.

    When we sow to God's spiritual realities, we reap everlasting rewards.

    When we subject ourselves to the leaders and rulers in the church that God ordained, then we receive the benefits of being lead in a good way, the way of holiness.

    When we believe that God supplies our need from believing the written logos of God as taught by the functioning rulers, the apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers that God ordained, then we can truly receive and live in the abundance and power that God promised
    I've run across what you are asserting, before, oatmeal; so it is not new to me.

    In fact, I ran across it long ago.

    But that is not what Romans 13 is talking about.

    The Apostle Paul's point was in light of the fact that God had long since ordained a system of government over a society, way back in Genesis.

    Though said system could not but end up corrupt in fallen man, nevertheless the concept behind said system - of a powers that be over a society - had been His will; until He replaces it with His own, one day.

    This three-fold principle as a Principle, is readily apparent in various passages throughout the Scripture, the following ones of which are merely a sampling...

    Matthew 21:33 Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country: 21:34 And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it. 21:35 And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another. 21:36 Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise. 21:37 But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son. 21:38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance. 21:39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him. 21:40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen? 21:41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons. 21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. 21:44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder. 21:45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them. 21:46 But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude, because they took him for a prophet.

    In the above, the powers that were over Israel, had been ordained of God, but they had corrupted it.

    Nevertheless, it was the fact that their system of rule had been of God, and that accorded with Moses, that the Israelite was to allow to continue to compel him to go by...

    Matthew 23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. 23:4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

    Until the following...

    Matthew 19:27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore? 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

    Matt. 19: 28 there, is a sister passage to the transfer of power or rule over Israel being referred to in Matt. 21:43.

    How do I know?

    Another, passage sister to those...

    Luke 12:31 But rather seek ye the kingdom of God; and all these things shall be added unto you. 12:32 Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom. 12:33 Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth. 12:34 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

    And there was also this, in place at that time...over Israel...

    John 19:10 Then saith Pilate unto him, Speakest thou not unto me? knowest thou not that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to release thee? 19:11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.

    There was that - over Israel and those nations - but there was also that under man's corruption...

    19:12 And from thenceforth Pilate sought to release him: but the Jews cried out, saying, If thou let this man go, thou art not Caesar's friend: whosoever maketh himself a king speaketh against Caesar. 19:13 When Pilate therefore heard that saying, he brought Jesus forth, and sat down in the judgment seat in a place that is called the Pavement, but in the Hebrew, Gabbatha.

    Nevertheless, we read of accounts of their submitting to said powers that be...

    Acts 25:10 Then said Paul, I stand at Caesar's judgment seat, where I ought to be judged: to the Jews have I done no wrong, as thou very well knowest. 25:11 For if I be an offender, or have committed any thing worthy of death, I refuse not to die: but if there be none of these things whereof these accuse me, no man may deliver me unto them. I appeal unto Caesar. 25:12 Then Festus, when he had conferred with the council, answered, Hast thou appealed unto Caesar? unto Caesar shalt thou go.

    No, oatmeal; I am more than very familiar with your erroneous assertion "about" the supposed "actual" sense of Romans 13.

    Though all those depictions in Scripture of said powers that be are Dispensational *, at the same time, in light of said various depictions in Scripture; I'll pass on your version.

    Rom. 5:8
    Acts 17:11

    _______________

    * Dispensational: impacted by the particular Dispensation a thing falls under, or plays out, within.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    ...

    Rom 13 doesn't embrace individuals but rather the office....
    IP finally got something right.

    Rom. 5:8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Danoh View Post
    I've run across what you are asserting, before, oatmeal; so it is not new to me.

    In fact, I ran across it long ago.

    But that is not what Romans 13 is talking about.

    The Apostle Paul's point was in light of the fact that God had long since ordained a system of government over a society, way back in Genesis.

    Though said system could not but end up corrupt in fallen man, nevertheless the concept behind said system - of a powers that be over a society - had been His will; until He replaces it with His own, one day.

    This three-fold principle as a Principle, is readily apparent in various passages throughout the Scripture, the following ones of which are merely a sampling...

    Matthew 21:33 Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country: 21:34 And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it. 21:35 And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another. 21:36 Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise. 21:37 But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son. 21:38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance. 21:39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him. 21:40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen? 21:41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons. 21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. 21:44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder. 21:45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them. 21:46 But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude, because they took him for a prophet.

    In the above, the powers that were over Israel, had been ordained of God, but they had corrupted it.

    Nevertheless, it was the fact that their system of rule had been of God, and that accorded with Moses, that the Israelite was to allow to continue to compel him to go by...

    Matthew 23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. 23:4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

    Until the following...

    Matthew 19:27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore? 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

    Matt. 19: 28 there, is a sister passage to the transfer of power or rule over Israel being referred to in Matt. 21:43.

    How do I know?

    Another, passage sister to those...

    Luke 12:31 But rather seek ye the kingdom of God; and all these things shall be added unto you. 12:32 Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom. 12:33 Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth. 12:34 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

    And there was also this, in place at that time...over Israel...

    John 19:10 Then saith Pilate unto him, Speakest thou not unto me? knowest thou not that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to release thee? 19:11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.

    There was that - over Israel and those nations - but there was also that under man's corruption...

    19:12 And from thenceforth Pilate sought to release him: but the Jews cried out, saying, If thou let this man go, thou art not Caesar's friend: whosoever maketh himself a king speaketh against Caesar. 19:13 When Pilate therefore heard that saying, he brought Jesus forth, and sat down in the judgment seat in a place that is called the Pavement, but in the Hebrew, Gabbatha.

    Nevertheless, we read of accounts of their submitting to said powers that be...

    Acts 25:10 Then said Paul, I stand at Caesar's judgment seat, where I ought to be judged: to the Jews have I done no wrong, as thou very well knowest. 25:11 For if I be an offender, or have committed any thing worthy of death, I refuse not to die: but if there be none of these things whereof these accuse me, no man may deliver me unto them. I appeal unto Caesar. 25:12 Then Festus, when he had conferred with the council, answered, Hast thou appealed unto Caesar? unto Caesar shalt thou go.

    No, oatmeal; I am more than very familiar with your erroneous assertion "about" the supposed "actual" sense of Romans 13.

    Though all those depictions in Scripture of said powers that be are Dispensational *, at the same time, in light of said various depictions in Scripture; I'll pass on your version.

    Rom. 5:8
    Acts 17:11

    _______________

    * Dispensational: impacted by the particular Dispensation a thing falls under, or plays out, within.
    So, apostles have no authority to rule in the church?

    So, prophets have no authority in the church?

    So, evangelists have no authority to rule in the church?

    So, pastors have no authority to rule in the church?

    What is the context of Romans 13?

    the previous context is Romans 12 and the lifestyle we need to live in the church, that is, the called out of God.

    Read Romans 12 to learn how to live your life. Read Romans 14

    So you heard this stuff long time ago? Wow, well God taught this to Paul a lot longer ago than that.

    Are you suggesting that Moses had no authority over the Pharaoh?

    Have you not read Exodus 7:1 KJV?

    "See, I have msde thee a god to pharaoh and Aaron shall be your prophet"

    When government leaders listen to God's apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers then the people of those nations shall be blessed

    For blessed is the nation whose god is the Lord

    Secular governments do not have God as their Lord, they are their own god.


    Romans 13:4 Apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers are ministers of God, not the clerk at the DMV who rejects God and truth. No, the Senator who does not trust in God is a minister of God?

    The president who praises the false god Allah who by his "prophet" Moham wants to murder you for believing the God and Father of the lord Jesus Christ is a minister of God for my good?

    Apostles prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers are God's ministers
    "And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship and in breaking of bread and in prayers." Acts 2:42

    "Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind" Philippians 2:2

    Pro scripture = Protestant

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