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Thread: Pela... Who? Don't know him! and how Augustine Original Sin has been addressed.

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    Over 4000 post club dodge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evil.Eye.<(I)> View Post
    Fair enough... I digress now and step slightly aside... to take up facilitation... versus argumentation...

    All blessings in His Grace,

    - EE
    EE, sorry I added this after you posted.

    EE, why do you believe Jesus said " you must be born again" if people are not born spiritually dead ? What would be the need to be born again "spiritually" if people are not born spiritually dead ?

    Be blessed with the light of His truth.
    Heb 4:2
    For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dodge View Post
    EE, sorry I added this after you posted.

    EE, why do you believe Jesus said " you must be born again" if people are not born spiritually dead ? What would be the need to be born again "spiritually" if people are not born spiritually dead ?
    I personally believe that we are born "Spiritually Alive" and innocent. I believe that there is a Spiritual Death and a Carnal Death. When we sin... we incur subjection to Satan. We all do this... quite rapidly. We are easily duped... in my opinion.

    Innocence is of such. We have two "Re-Births"... One is here and now... and the other is received upon "Death" of the flesh.

    This is merely my perception and I know we differ in opinions on this... but your view is as valid as mine and vice a versa... and I'm glad you are contributing here.

    To die two "Spiritual Deaths" is a rather permanent condition... In my opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by dodge View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by tetelestai View Post
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    The new heavens and new earth is the New Covenant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Evil.Eye.<(I)> View Post
    @Derf ... you sent me a counter point that I would enjoy addressing. If you're okay with it... I have no issue with it being posted here. I think I need to make a clarification... and appreciate your observation.
    Please do. I would have done it here, but the thread was closed. I may have some other points to make on your not-so-final post, but that one stood out to me at the time.

    Derf

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    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post
    Please do. I would have done it here, but the thread was closed. I may have some other points to make on your not-so-final post, but that one stood out to me at the time.
    Thank you, Sir..

    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post
    "Not so fast. Your premise is a very good one--Jesus died because He was with sin, but your conclusion is flawed, as described here:
    I want to make sure my initial point is clarified. I in no way attribute sin to Jesus Christ (God) ... though He became the "serpent of Bronze" to "ALL" Humanity ... "John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up,"... He is forever without guilt of sin.

    My actual point was the premise that "Carnal Death" and "Spiritual Death" are two separate matters. To be more specific... Carnal death is bestowed by the Serpent and as I keep pointing out... Scripture makes this clear... Hebrews 2:14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,.

    I will color this a bit with a good song that I think of to help me keep things in perspective...



    My favorite line that is originally from this song that was a NIN song... but taken on by Mr. Cash is ... "You can have it all. My empire of dirt." ... because it articulates what the "Prince of this world's" empire is... a fading... ephemeral... heap of dust... that he is eating bit by bit and no doubt weary and sick of.

    Eating dust as in "Cursed art thou... you shall eat dust"... which is a clear reference to Satan's appointment as "Death"... for corrupting the "innocence" of Adam and Eve... through deceit. This is galvanized by the immediate follow up of God's curse on Satan by then connecting Dust with Adam "Returning to Dust".

    I believe the old expression "the devil is in the details" is a fair expression... because much doctrine of the reformed flavor attempts to "erase" the presence and influence of Satan... and in doing so... it has theological issues like the one we are discussing.

    I have a long run of scripture that I have challenged people in the past to exegete... but they usually pass. It follows the Spiritual workings and war between God and His Adversary. God is "Life" and it only makes sense that He bestowed the "Power of Death" upon His trusted servant that betrayed Him, the other Angels and Humanity.

    Anyhow... the point is... DEATH is more than a thing... as we've discussed... but a "name". When Jesus saw Satan enter Judas... He told Satan to "Do what he must, quickly"... (paraphrased). There is no doubt that Satan was foaming at the mouth that He had the whole universe in the bag, and was about to overthrow Heaven itself as the "Angel that Judged God's Iniquity".

    I can firmly prove that Zechariah 3 is about this moment... this moment not referring to when Judas was addressed... but I mean when Jesus gave up His Spirit from the Cross... my mind is ahead of my fingers... It is "Spiritual Revelation" and binds to "Joshua". As you know... Ye'shua is "Joshua" in our language and thus... I'm still perplexed that this theological finding hasn't been discussed elsewhere.

    Honestly... when I die... I want all my words to be erased... but if @Knight has the ability to submit one thing I've ever written... to someone who can record the idea to be "pondered"... and "retained" ... not as "Doctrine"... but as "opinion" that needs to be looked into and possibly restudied over an extensive period of time... It is that one scripture run that binds to Zechariah 3. I'm sincere on this... as it is one of the main secrets to my theological "most of the time... but I err. and grow" consistency that prevents "contradiction".

    Back to the point. Death Incarnate used the Law to impute Sin and thus ... "Death". (1 Corinthians 15:55f) I'm also certain that the Devil had extensive charge of the dead... until Christ... as God usurped the "Key to Death"... as we find in Scripture. (Revelation 1:18)... and this binds to a passage in Peter about Christs work in the Spirit after Physical death on Calvary... anyhow... as I'm listening to Johnny Cash and typing away... Jesus indeed took on ALL SIN of ALL MANNER ... by taking it upon HIS SINLESS BEING... and was condemned by the Devil Himself...

    It looks something like this...

    1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the Spirit, 19 in which He went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, 20 because they formerly did not obey, ...... 22 Who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to Him.

    Zechariah 3 Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the Angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right hand to oppose him. 2 And the Lord said to Satan, “The Lord rebuke you, Satan! The Lord who has chosen Jerusalem rebuke you! Is this not a brand plucked from the fire?”

    3 Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and was standing before the Angel.

    4 Then He answered and spoke to those who stood before Him, saying, “Take away the filthy garments from him.” And to him He said, “See, I have removed your iniquity from you, and I will clothe you with rich robes.”

    5 And I said, “Let them put a clean turban on his head.

    So they put a clean turban on his head, and they put the clothes on him. And the Angel of the Lord stood by.

    My point... The Devil thought he had defeated God Himself... but in condemning God... Satan became a false witness and was rebuked and cast down from Heaven... forever. (Revelation 12:7) ... When Jesus has "Michael" ... the Angel that defends "Israel"... (Daniel 12:1) ... cast out Satan... you know that Satan is officially stripped of "Spiritual Authority"... that (In my opinion)... once ... (Zechariah 3) allowed him to stand at the "Right Hand" of "Ye'shua" and issue condemnation.

    The Sinless took on all SIN and effectually became the Bronze Serpent that Healed... instead of destroyed. The Right Hand is the place of "Prosecution"... and the very fact that Satan once stood there... but lost his "falsely usurped" position... is emphasized by these two passages...

    Romans 8:34 Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us.

    Hebrews 14:14 Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. 15 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

    My point that I think you may have misunderstood ... was rooted in the binding of Carnal death to the idea that carnal death being possible for a human in no way means that a "Baby" is born anything but innocent... in the EYES of God.

    My full point was to say that it is preposterous to say suggest that "anything subject to "disease" or "carnal death" must contain SIN... because Jesus "Became Sin"... ie... "Took on ALL SIN"... but He in no way was Sinful or guilty of Sin... and He remained "innocent"... though He "died". He lived a "Man's" Life out in "Spotless Perfection" and ofcoarse... accomplished what even "ADAM" or ANY other could never accomplish... in doing so.

    To get specific... the argument I was refuting is the one that says...

    Babies Die... thus they are "Guilty of Sin"... upon conception and birth. My counter argument is to say... Jesus was subjected to Death... for the Hebrews 2:14 of the matter... and He was WITHOUT GUILT.

    We can never do as HE and that's the other point... I'm continually anchoring to.

    It is a really bad idea to say we can Be like Jesus ... AKA GOD.

    Isaiah 14:14 to be specific.

    Does that clarify at all?

    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post
    [2Co 5:21] 21 For he hath made him sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

    The very idea is God's own

    Derf
    As you can see... I fully agree... and I'm hoping my theological expression here will give you a more clear picture of what I am expressing.

    - Evil.Eye.<(I)>

    One more point to bolster my stance...

    Gen. 3 22 Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”—

    ... per the narrative as it was delivered from God to Moses... The denial of access to the "Tree" was what allowed "Carnal Death" to occur... and thusly ... the theological loop de loops of origonal sin and so forth... miss that the simple answer is right there.

    Imputed Sin Nature... Verses the perpetual presence of Evil and Free Will... visa vi... how Evil manipulates Innocence... is an easy pick... as one "creates" a reason we "Carnally Die"... when the actual narriative says... if we still had access... to eat of "That Life Fruit"... we would live eternally... as in... not die carnally.

    I am so adamant about the necessary implications of Spiritual and Carnal Death being separated in discussion... because... if Satan has legitimate sway over "Spiritual Fate"... it is exalting him to the position of God.

    Spiritual relates directly to the Soul... and Jesus made it clear who can "destroy" that... whatever a person understands "destroy" as... IOW ... Jesus can destroy body and Soul... while Satan can only destroy the "Body".

    AOS overplays it's hand on "Spiritual Death" and goes a step further to conjure the why and how... while leaning on select verses and removing much of the Romans 7 Narrative's implications.

    There's that too. Lots more to bolster from scripture... but that should do it for now.
    Last edited by Evil.Eye.<(I)>; August 18th, 2017 at 03:13 PM.
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    Stupid things Tet says...

    Quote Originally Posted by tetelestai View Post
    The old heavens and old earth was the law and the Old Covenant.

    The new heavens and new earth is the New Covenant.

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    Over 1000 post club Derf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evil.Eye.<(I)> View Post
    Thank you, Sir..



    I want to make sure my initial point is clarified. I in no way attribute sin to Jesus Christ (God) ... though He became the "serpent of Bronze" to "ALL" Humanity ... "John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up,"... He is forever without guilt of sin.

    My actual point was the premise that "Carnal Death" and "Spiritual Death" are two separate matters. To be more specific... Carnal death is bestowed by the Serpent and as I keep pointing out... Scripture makes this clear... Hebrews 2:14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,.

    I will color this a bit with a good song that I think of to help me keep things in perspective...



    My favorite line that is originally from this song that was a NIN song... but taken on by Mr. Cash is ... "You can have it all. My empire of dirt." ... because it articulates what the "Prince of this world's" empire is... a fading... ephemeral... heap of dust... that he is eating bit by bit and no doubt weary and sick of.

    Eating dust as in "Cursed art thou... you shall eat dust"... which is a clear reference to Satan's appointment as "Death"... for corrupting the "innocence" of Adam and Eve... through deceit. This is galvanized by the immediate follow up of God's curse on Satan by then connecting Dust with Adam "Returning to Dust".

    I believe the old expression "the devil is in the details" is a fair expression... because much doctrine of the reformed flavor attempts to "erase" the presence and influence of Satan... and in doing so... it has theological issues like the one we are discussing.

    I have a long run of scripture that I have challenged people in the past to exegete... but they usually pass. It follows the Spiritual workings and war between God and His Adversary. God is "Life" and it only makes sense that He bestowed the "Power of Death" upon His trusted servant that betrayed Him, the other Angels and Humanity.

    Anyhow... the point is... DEATH is more than a thing... as we've discussed... but a "name". When Jesus saw Satan enter Judas... He told Satan to "Do what he must, quickly"... (paraphrased). There is no doubt that Satan was foaming at the mouth that He had the whole universe in the bag, and was about to overthrow Heaven itself as the "Angel that Judged God's Iniquity".

    I can firmly prove that Zechariah 3 is about this moment... this moment not referring to when Judas was addressed... but I mean when Jesus gave up His Spirit from the Cross... my mind is ahead of my fingers... It is "Spiritual Revelation" and binds to "Joshua". As you know... Ye'shua is "Joshua" in our language and thus... I'm still perplexed that this theological finding hasn't been discussed elsewhere.

    Honestly... when I die... I want all my words to be erased... but if @Knight has the ability to submit one thing I've ever written... to someone who can record the idea to be "pondered"... and "retained" ... not as "Doctrine"... but as "opinion" that needs to be looked into and possibly restudied over an extensive period of time... It is that one scripture run that binds to Zechariah 3. I'm sincere on this... as it is one of the main secrets to my theological "most of the time... but I err. and grow" consistency that prevents "contradiction".

    Back to the point. Death Incarnate used the Law to impute Sin and thus ... "Death". (1 Corinthians 15:55f) I'm also certain that the Devil had extensive charge of the dead... until Christ... as God usurped the "Key to Death"... as we find in Scripture. (Revelation 1:18)... and this binds to a passage in Peter about Christs work in the Spirit after Physical death on Calvary... anyhow... as I'm listening to Johnny Cash and typing away... Jesus indeed took on ALL SIN of ALL MANNER ... by taking it upon HIS SINLESS BEING... and was condemned by the Devil Himself...

    It looks something like this...

    1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the Spirit, 19 in which He went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, 20 because they formerly did not obey, ...... 22 Who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to Him.

    Zechariah 3 Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the Angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right hand to oppose him. 2 And the Lord said to Satan, “The Lord rebuke you, Satan! The Lord who has chosen Jerusalem rebuke you! Is this not a brand plucked from the fire?”

    3 Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and was standing before the Angel.

    4 Then He answered and spoke to those who stood before Him, saying, “Take away the filthy garments from him.” And to him He said, “See, I have removed your iniquity from you, and I will clothe you with rich robes.”

    5 And I said, “Let them put a clean turban on his head.

    So they put a clean turban on his head, and they put the clothes on him. And the Angel of the Lord stood by.

    My point... The Devil thought he had defeated God Himself... but in condemning God... Satan became a false witness and was rebuked and cast down from Heaven... forever. (Revelation 12:7) ... When Jesus has "Michael" ... the Angel that defends "Israel"... (Daniel 12:1) ... cast out Satan... you know that Satan is officially stripped of "Spiritual Authority"... that (In my opinion)... once ... (Zechariah 3) allowed him to stand at the "Right Hand" of "Ye'shua" and issue condemnation.

    The Sinless took on all SIN and effectually became the Bronze Serpent that Healed... instead of destroyed. The Right Hand is the place of "Prosecution"... and the very fact that Satan once stood there... but lost his "falsely usurped" position... is emphasized by these two passages...

    Romans 8:34 Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us.

    Hebrews 14:14 Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. 15 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

    My point that I think you may have misunderstood ... was rooted in the binding of Carnal death to the idea that carnal death being possible for a human in no way means that a "Baby" is born anything but innocent... in the EYES of God.

    My full point was to say that it is preposterous to say suggest that "anything subject to "disease" or "carnal death" must contain SIN... because Jesus "Became Sin"... ie... "Took on ALL SIN"... but He in no way was Sinful or guilty of Sin... and He remained "innocent"... though He "died". He lived a "Man's" Life out in "Spotless Perfection" and ofcoarse... accomplished what even "ADAM" or ANY other could never accomplish... in doing so.

    To get specific... the argument I was refuting is the one that says...

    Babies Die... thus they are "Guilty of Sin"... upon conception and birth. My counter argument is to say... Jesus was subjected to Death... for the Hebrews 2:14 of the matter... and He was WITHOUT GUILT.

    We can never do as HE and that's the other point... I'm continually anchoring to.

    It is a really bad idea to say we can Be like Jesus ... AKA GOD.

    Isaiah 14:14 to be specific.

    Does that clarify at all?



    As you can see... I fully agree... and I'm hoping my theological expression here will give you a more clear picture of what I am expressing.

    - Evil.Eye.<(I)>

    One more point to bolster my stance...

    Gen. 3 22 Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”—

    ... per the narrative as it was delivered from God to Moses... The denial of access to the "Tree" was what allowed "Carnal Death" to occur... and thusly ... the theological loop de loops of origonal sin and so forth... miss that the simple answer is right there.

    Imputed Sin Nature... Verses the perpetual presence of Evil and Free Will... visa vi... how Evil manipulates Innocence... is an easy pick... as one "creates" a reason we "Carnally Die"... when the actual narriative says... if we still had access... to eat of "That Life Fruit"... we would live eternally... as in... not die carnally.

    I am so adamant about the necessary implications of Spiritual and Carnal Death being separated in discussion... because... if Satan has legitimate sway over "Spiritual Fate"... it is exalting him to the position of God.

    Spiritual relates directly to the Soul... and Jesus made it clear who can "destroy" that... whatever a person understands "destroy" as... IOW ... Jesus can destroy body and Soul... while Satan can only destroy the "Body".

    AOS overplays it's hand on "Spiritual Death" and goes a step further to conjure the why and how... while leaning on select verses and removing much of the Romans 7 Narrative's implications.

    There's that too. Lots more to bolster from scripture... but that should do it for now.
    That's a lot to address.

    On the Zech 3 passage, I can see some of what you are saying, but I don't think the name means as much as you are trying to make it mean. If it does, then it suggests that Jesus was sinful, and then was cleansed, which you've denied further down. And then He is admonished to walk in God's ways, or lose His blessing. I just don't see that as a possibility with Jesus after His sin (our sin, in other words) has been cleansed from Him by His death. I think the "Joshua" in Zech 3 is just the name of the high priest--that's it. He might be a type of Christ, but he's not Christ.

    I don't think Satan is the one that holds the keys to death--ever. The one Jesus was saying not to be afraid of in Matt 10:28 was NOT Satan. It was anybody that threatened to kill His disciples. Read the text--it's a plural "them": [Mat 10:28 KJV] 28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

    And that little plural completely demolishes your view.

    I don't think "death" is a thing, but an absence of a thing: life. How that works between spiritual and carnal life and death, I don't know.

    But I do agree with you that "if Satan has legitimate sway over "Spiritual Fate"... it is exalting him to the position of God." This is exactly what Adam and Eve gave to Satan, honor belonging to God. That ignored what God told them in favor of what Satan told them, putting themselves under his authority.

    Finally, about the "death means your guilty" concept: Is that not what the bible says when it says "the wages of sin is death"? If death comes through sin, and someone dies, then there must be sin somewhere in that person for him to die. If babies are sinless, and they still die (some before they have any chance to commit any sinful acts), then they are being cursed for someone else's sin, and I think we know who that someone was--Adam.

    If Jesus was cursed to die because of Adam's sin, then He has no ability to redeem us from sin by His death--He needs His death to atone for His own sin (or passed-down sin, or the curse of sin, or whatever it is). But if He is sinless (both His own acts and there's no passed-down sin), He can atone for someone else's sin. So, we recognize that He led a sinless life, but if babies are the same state as He was--guilty before they commit any acts (or at least cursed before...)--than why wasn't Jesus also cursed even though His life was sinless. The answer that makes the most sense to me (and a couple of others have stated it on this thread) is that the sin is somehow passed from FATHER to SON (male DNA, perhaps, or something else?), and Jesus did not have a human father. I think the fact that His father was God, and the fact that He was God, made it possible for Him to atone for more than one person's sin, but I'm speculating (the rule book isn't so clearly written as I might hope).

    This means that Jesus, if He never sinned, would not HAVE to die, but could CHOOSE to die for someone else. This makes sense of His prayer in the garden--"if it be possible, let this cup pass from me, yet not my will but thine be done."

    I may not have much time to check in here for the next several days, but I'll try to read replies and may make a post or two.

    In Him,
    Derf

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    "That is why you Fail" Evil.Eye.<(I)>'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post
    That's a lot to address.

    On the Zech 3 passage, I can see some of what you are saying, but I don't think the name means as much as you are trying to make it mean. If it does, then it suggests that Jesus was sinful, and then was cleansed, which you've denied further down. And then He is admonished to walk in God's ways, or lose His blessing. I just don't see that as a possibility with Jesus after His sin (our sin, in other words) has been cleansed from Him by His death. I think the "Joshua" in Zech 3 is just the name of the high priest--that's it. He might be a type of Christ, but he's not Christ.
    Not so fast Derf. ... Those garments represent our sin.

    Are you saying He didn't physically bear our iniquities?

    1 Peter 2:24 He Himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.

    Because... Scripture is clear He did. Those filthy robes are our sin and the Angel says...

    "Zechariah 3:4*Then He answered and spoke to those who stood before Him, saying, “Take away the filthy garments from him.” And to him He said, “See, I have removed your iniquity from you, and I will clothe you with rich robes.”

    And again... Zechariah 3:2 And the Lord said to Satan, “The Lord rebuke you, Satan! The Lord who has chosen Jerusalem rebuke you! Is this not a brand plucked from the fire?”

    The iniquities that were forgiven were OURS! He bore them! Did you really miss that?

    As for the idea that this isn't Jesus... you are missing that He bore our shame and ADMONISHMENT... Plus He is the Branch of David... and Again... the Stone of 7 eyes reference!

    Zechariah 3:6*Then the Angel of the Lord admonished Joshua, saying, 7*“Thus says the Lord of hosts:
    ‘If you will walk in My ways,
And if you will keep My command,
Then you shall also judge My house,
And likewise have charge of My courts;
I will give you places to walk
Among these who stand here.
    8*
    ‘Hear, O Joshua, the high priest,
You and your companions who sit before you,
For they are a wondrous sign;
For behold, I am bringing forth My Servant the BRANCH.
    9*
    For behold, the stone
That I have laid before Joshua:
Upon the stone are seven eyes.
Behold, I will engrave its inscription,’
Says the Lord of hosts,
‘And I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.
    10*
    In that day,’ says the Lord of hosts,
‘Everyone will invite his neighbor
Under his vine and under his fig tree.’”

    You don't recognize the Servant Branch Reference or the 7 eyes???

    Derf? That was way too rapid a response to consider the entire passage... the iniquities are removed in ONE day and the Turban is the High Priest. Jesus is the High Priest! Hebrews?

    Come on Derf... look again.

    Did you forget Psalms 80?

    14Turn again, O God of hosts!
Look down from heaven, and see;
have regard for this vine,
15the stock that your right hand planted,
and for the son whom you made strong for yourself.
16They have burned it with fire; they have cut it down;
may they perish at the rebuke of your face!
17But let your hand be on the man of your right hand,
the son of man whom you have made strong for yourself!
18Then we shall not turn back from you;
give us life, and we will call upon your name!
    19Restore us, O LORD God of hosts!
Let your face shine, that we may be saved!

    Quote Originally Posted by Derf
    I don't think Satan is the one that holds the keys to death--ever. The one Jesus was saying not to be afraid of in Matt 10:28 was NOT Satan. It was anybody that threatened to kill His disciples. Read the text--it's a plural "them": [Mat 10:28 KJV] 28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

    And that little plural completely demolishes your view.
    Did you miss Hebrews 2:14 Derf... ??? It says "to destroy the one who has the power of death... that is the Devil"... Derf?!? How much clearer do you need it?

    I even showed how God retains those keys now... but what exactly does Hebrews 2:14 mean to you? This verse seems to fly under the radar and it's a doctrine anchor!

    And "Demolished"... oh hell No! Not at all. Jesus called the Pharisees Serpents... Death Incarnate recruits help... hence... plural doesn't destroy but bolster my argument. Come on Derf... what happened here?

    Quote Originally Posted by Derf
    I don't think "death" is a thing, but an absence of a thing: life. How that works between spiritual and carnal life and death, I don't know.
    Fair enough. I understand your statement here and respect it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Derf
    But I do agree with you that "if Satan has legitimate sway over "Spiritual Fate"... it is exalting him to the position of God." This is exactly what Adam and Eve gave to Satan, honor belonging to God. That ignored what God told them in favor of what Satan told them, putting themselves under his authority.
    This is on the money! Well said, sir.

    Quote Originally Posted by Derf
    Finally, about the "death means your guilty" concept: Is that not what the bible says when it says "the wages of sin is death"? If death comes through sin, and someone dies, then there must be sin somewhere in that person for him to die. If babies are sinless, and they still die (some before they have any chance to commit any sinful acts), then they are being cursed for someone else's sin, and I think we know who that someone was--Adam.
    We agree to a degree here... but the Curse of Carnal Death isn't Spiritual Death. You agreed here one quote up. The precision here has to be more extensive than a shot gun. Get out the sniper rifle. It doesn't add up quite right with this generalization.

    Quote Originally Posted by Derf
    If Jesus was cursed to die because of Adam's sin, then He has no ability to redeem us from sin by His death--He needs His death to atone for His own sin (or passed-down sin, or the curse of sin, or whatever it is). But if He is sinless (both His own acts and there's no passed-down sin), He can atone for someone else's sin. So, we recognize that He led a sinless life, but if babies are the same state as He was--guilty before they commit any acts (or at least cursed before...)--than why wasn't Jesus also cursed even though His life was sinless. The answer that makes the most sense to me (and a couple of others have stated it on this thread) is that the sin is somehow passed from FATHER to SON (male DNA, perhaps, or something else?), and Jesus did not have a human father. I think the fact that His father was God, and the fact that He was God, made it possible for Him to atone for more than one person's sin, but I'm speculating (the rule book isn't so clearly written as I might hope).

    This means that Jesus, if He never sinned, would not HAVE to die, but could CHOOSE to die for someone else. This makes sense of His prayer in the garden--"if it be possible, let this cup pass from me, yet not my will but thine be done."
    Scrap the DNA and Father concept and come back down to earth here... We mostly agree here... and I'm not sure if you are thinking this through and verbalizing... perceiving agreement here or disagreement here.

    You had me at "Choice". That's the correct version. I think you work this out a little different than me... but we agree here... mostly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Derf
    I may not have much time to check in here for the next several days, but I'll try to read replies and may make a post or two.
    Perfect... me too! I threw in a little spicy rebuttal... but honestly... that's just a little bit of my style and I hope you are assured that I respect you deeply. Shoot... I respect Lon deeply and you see how I can be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Derf
    In Him,
    Derf
    I always look forward to discussion with you... as I do others here that speak with sincerity, conviction and perpetual response to Jesus' guidance.

    In Him,

    EE
    Last edited by Evil.Eye.<(I)>; August 19th, 2017 at 03:52 PM.
    Open (Beyond Time ...1 Ki. 8:27) Relational to us within Time (John 1:1)
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    There is only one Commentary!
    (1 John 2:27; Rm. 8:9; Php. 1:19; Mt. 23:8)

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    Quote Originally Posted by tetelestai View Post
    The old heavens and old earth was the law and the Old Covenant.

    The new heavens and new earth is the New Covenant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Evil.Eye.<(I)> View Post
    Not so fast Derf. ... Those garments represent our sin.

    Are you saying He didn't physically bear our iniquities?

    1 Peter 2:24 He Himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.

    Because... Scripture is clear He did. Those filthy robes are our sin and the Angel says...

    "Zechariah 3:4*Then He answered and spoke to those who stood before Him, saying, “Take away the filthy garments from him.” And to him He said, “See, I have removed your iniquity from you, and I will clothe you with rich robes.”
    If he's talking to Joshua about removing his iniquities, how can that be Jesus? Joshua in this case could be considered both a type of Jesus and a type of mankind.

    And again... Zechariah 3:2 And the Lord said to Satan, “The Lord rebuke you, Satan! The Lord who has chosen Jerusalem rebuke you! Is this not a brand plucked from the fire?”

    The iniquities that were forgiven were OURS! He bore them! Did you really miss that?
    Jesus was a brand plucked from the fire? I don't think so.

    As for the idea that this isn't Jesus... you are missing that He bore our shame and ADMONISHMENT... Plus He is the Branch of David... and Again... the Stone of 7 eyes reference!

    Zechariah 3:6*Then the Angel of the Lord admonished Joshua, saying, 7*“Thus says the Lord of hosts:
    ‘If you will walk in My ways,
And if you will keep My command,
Then you shall also judge My house,
And likewise have charge of My courts;
I will give you places to walk
Among these who stand here.
    8*
    ‘Hear, O Joshua, the high priest,
You and your companions who sit before you,
For they are a wondrous sign;
For behold, I am bringing forth My Servant the BRANCH.
    9*
    For behold, the stone
That I have laid before Joshua:
Upon the stone are seven eyes.
Behold, I will engrave its inscription,’
Says the Lord of hosts,
‘And I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.
    10*
    In that day,’ says the Lord of hosts,
‘Everyone will invite his neighbor
Under his vine and under his fig tree.’”

    You don't recognize the Servant Branch Reference or the 7 eyes???
    certainly! But the stone was laid BEFORE Joshua. The stone wasn't Joshua.

    Derf? That was way too rapid a response to consider the entire passage... the iniquities are removed in ONE day and the Turban is the High Priest. Jesus is the High Priest! Hebrews?

    Come on Derf... look again.

    Did you forget Psalms 80?

    14Turn again, O God of hosts!
Look down from heaven, and see;
have regard for this vine,
15the stock that your right hand planted,
and for the son whom you made strong for yourself.
16They have burned it with fire; they have cut it down;
may they perish at the rebuke of your face!
17But let your hand be on the man of your right hand,
the son of man whom you have made strong for yourself!
18Then we shall not turn back from you;
give us life, and we will call upon your name!
    19Restore us, O LORD God of hosts!
Let your face shine, that we may be saved!
    Ps 80:18-19 is obviously NOT Jesus talking, because it is plural.

    We understand that the whole Old Testament is talking about Jesus. But it is also talking about the people Jesus will save. We can't conflate the two.



    Did you miss Hebrews 2:14 Derf... ??? It says "to destroy the one who has the power of death... that is the Devil"... Derf?!? How much clearer do you need it?

    I even showed how God retains those keys now... but what exactly does Hebrews 2:14 mean to you? This verse seems to fly under the radar and it's a doctrine anchor!

    And "Demolished"... oh hell No! Not at all. Jesus called the Pharisees Serpents... Death Incarnate recruits help... hence... plural doesn't destroy but bolster my argument. Come on Derf... what happened here?
    What is the power of death that Satan has? Isn't it sin? Satan can't take the life of anyone unless God approves/allows it to happen. But God does allow it in cases of continuing sin, even for the believer. Is that what is being talked about here in Heb 2:14?


    We agree to a degree here... but the Curse of Carnal Death isn't Spiritual Death. You agreed here one quote up. The precision here has to be more extensive than a shot gun. Get out the sniper rifle. It doesn't add up quite right with this generalization.
    I'm not sure how comfortable I am with "Spiritual Death". I recognize the term, and have grown up with its usage as something that we all are cursed with. Is that what you are saying? Or are you saying that we are cursed with physical death, but not spiritual death? If we aren't cursed with spiritual death, that means that we go on living spiritually even when we die physically, unless we do something that brings spiritual death, right? But can a person live while dead spiritually? So we define "spiritual death" as "separation from God"--something that is not related to what we normally see as death (the cessation or absence of life). Where did that definition come from? Is it scriptural? This was part of the Eternal Conscious Torment discussion, and if true, it easily makes the case for ECT--but is it scriptural? If it were, the answer for ECT would be more easily determined, in my estimation.

    I'm not sure how to define "spiritual death". If it means separation from God, ok. But don't we have a spirit? And doesn't that spirit still indwell us while we live physically? Wasn't Hitler "spiritually alive" while he lived physically? Yet I think he would be considered to have been "spiritually dead" in the "separation from God" category.

    This verse in Ecclesiastes is interesting: [Ecc 12:7 KJV]
    Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

    Is this the same "spirit" that is "dead"? Why would God want "dead spirit" returning to Him? Rather, it seems like this is talking about His breath--the life He instills in each one of us, including in the rebellious/the unsaved. And if that "spirit" returns to Him, isn't some kind of "power of life" that He gives each living person? And if that's what it means, then that "spirit", or breath or power of life, doesn't seem to return until physical death.

    Rather, I think "spiritual death" is a euphemism that turns into an equivocation, which confuses the discussion. If we say we are "dead in our trespasses and sin", does that mean we are currently "dead" or does it mean that we are on our way to death with nothing to prevent it? When we are "made alive in Christ", does it mean that our spirits have rejoined our bodies, or does it mean that we are now not to fear the death of the body, because Christ has led the way by returning from death?


    Scrap the DNA and Father concept and come back down to earth here... We mostly agree here... and I'm not sure if you are thinking this through and verbalizing... perceiving agreement here or disagreement here.
    The DNA thing is one possibility. There are others. It could be that we learn from our fathers, and thus repeat their sins, and so receive the curse in ourselves. It could be that when our fathers do evil, we reap some of the consequences, to the third and fourth generation.

    I threw in a little spicy rebuttal...
    I prefer the word "spirited".


    I always look forward to discussion with you... as I do others here that speak with sincerity, conviction and perpetual response to Jesus' guidance.

    In Him,

    EE
    Same here! And I relish the chance to learn.

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  11. #98
    "That is why you Fail" Evil.Eye.<(I)>'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post
    If he's talking to Joshua about removing his iniquities, how can that be Jesus? Joshua in this case could be considered both a type of Jesus and a type of mankind.
    Warmer... but did you miss my point... here...

    Quote Originally Posted by Evil.Eye.<(I)> View Post
    Not so fast Derf. ... Those garments represent our sin.

    Are you saying He didn't physically bear our iniquities?

    1 Peter 2:24 He Himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.

    Because... Scripture is clear He did. Those filthy robes are our sin and the Angel says...

    "Zechariah 3:4*Then He answered and spoke to those who stood before Him, saying, “Take away the filthy garments from him.” And to him He said, “See, I have removed your iniquity from you, and I will clothe you with rich robes.”

    And again... Zechariah 3:2 And the Lord said to Satan, “The Lord rebuke you, Satan! The Lord who has chosen Jerusalem rebuke you! Is this not a brand plucked from the fire?”

    The iniquities that were forgiven were OURS! He bore them! Did you really miss that?
    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post
    Jesus was a brand plucked from the fire? I don't think so.
    So... Jesus didn't "walk through the valley of the shadow of death"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post
    certainly! But the stone was laid BEFORE Joshua. The stone wasn't Joshua.
    So my LORD can't say to "His" LORD?

    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post
    Ps 80:18-19 is obviously NOT Jesus talking, because it is plural.
    John 5:39 ... and what exactly does "Tri-Une" mean again? Singular and Plural... Last I checked. Also... Typification is pretty important... especially that Jesus kind... wouldn't you say?

    Derf... John 5:39 ... "Christology" ... this isn't that difficult... whatever angle you take... to say that God isn't referring to Himself in scripture in MANY places... through "typification" is to miss.. JOHN 5:39

    God talks to God Derf. "Gospels" ??? Remember?

    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post
    We understand that the whole Old Testament is talking about Jesus. But it is also talking about the people Jesus will save. We can't conflate the two.
    Again... John 5:39 is conflation now? If it is good... it points to Jesus... If it is bad... it doesn't. How complex is that?

    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post
    What is the power of death that Satan has? Isn't it sin? Satan can't take the life of anyone unless God approves/allows it to happen. But God does allow it in cases of continuing sin, even for the believer. Is that what is being talked about here in Heb 2:14?
    Carnal Death. To return to dust. Was this not the snakes charge? Do we not "return to dust" and one "eats dust"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post
    I'm not sure how comfortable I am with "Spiritual Death". I recognize the term, and have grown up with its usage as something that we all are cursed with. Is that what you are saying? Or are you saying that we are cursed with physical death, but not spiritual death? If we aren't cursed with spiritual death, that means that we go on living spiritually even when we die physically, unless we do something that brings spiritual death, right? But can a person live while dead spiritually? So we define "spiritual death" as "separation from God"--something that is not related to what we normally see as death (the cessation or absence of life). Where did that definition come from? Is it scriptural? This was part of the Eternal Conscious Torment discussion, and if true, it easily makes the case for ECT--but is it scriptural? If it were, the answer for ECT would be more easily determined, in my estimation.
    Now you're cutting to the Theological quick. And... He's back!

    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post
    I'm not sure how to define "spiritual death". If it means separation from God, ok. But don't we have a spirit? And doesn't that spirit still indwell us while we live physically? Wasn't Hitler "spiritually alive" while he lived physically? Yet I think he would be considered to have been "spiritually dead" in the "separation from God" category.
    I love the way you put this!

    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post
    This verse in Ecclesiastes is interesting: [Ecc 12:7 KJV]
    Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post
    Is this the same "spirit" that is "dead"? Why would God want "dead spirit" returning to Him? Rather, it seems like this is talking about His breath--the life He instills in each one of us, including in the rebellious/the unsaved. And if that "spirit" returns to Him, isn't some kind of "power of life" that He gives each living person? And if that's what it means, then that "spirit", or breath or power of life, doesn't seem to return until physical death.
    Yup ... Your musings here are outstanding!

    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post
    Rather, I think "spiritual death" is a euphemism that turns into an equivocation, which confuses the discussion. If we say we are "dead in our trespasses and sin", does that mean we are currently "dead" or does it mean that we are on our way to death with nothing to prevent it? When we are "made alive in Christ", does it mean that our spirits have rejoined our bodies, or does it mean that we are now not to fear the death of the body, because Christ has led the way by returning from death?
    That is a trillion dollar question... isn't it. And... I would say... it has to do with not fearing "Carnal Death"... Because our true "life" is protected, preserved and sealed by Jesus Christ.

    Spiritual Death is indeed a term that can sever understanding. I prefer to attribute "blindness" to the term. Blind is what it really is. Blind to God. Not by God's doing... but our "Fear of the LIGHT"... like "Adam and Eve Hiding."

    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post
    The DNA thing is one possibility. There are others. It could be that we learn from our fathers, and thus repeat their sins, and so receive the curse in ourselves. It could be that when our fathers do evil, we reap some of the consequences, to the third and fourth generation.
    There's that sniper rifle! Well spoken, articulated, enunciated and expressed from multiple perspectives!

    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post
    I prefer the word "spirited".
    I love it!

    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post
    Same here! And I relish the chance to learn.
    You are always a blessing to me @Derf ... I pray all is well for you and yours.
    Last edited by Evil.Eye.<(I)>; September 1st, 2017 at 03:07 PM.
    Open (Beyond Time ...1 Ki. 8:27) Relational to us within Time (John 1:1)
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    Zionist (Rm. 11:25-36)
    There is only one Commentary!
    (1 John 2:27; Rm. 8:9; Php. 1:19; Mt. 23:8)

    Salvation is Free (Eph. 2:8f) !!! It depends on his strength, not mine!!! (2 Co. 12:9)

    Stupid things Tet says...

    Quote Originally Posted by tetelestai View Post
    The old heavens and old earth was the law and the Old Covenant.

    The new heavens and new earth is the New Covenant.

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    Over 1000 post club Derf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evil.Eye.<(I)> View Post
    Warmer... but did you miss my point... here...
    I don't think I missed your point, but if you want to reiterate it for me, please do. I agree that Jesus bore our iniquities, and the high priest was always a bearer of iniquities of the whole of the people when he went into the holy of holies once a year--this is where the passage presents Joshua, and every other high priest before him, as a type of Christ. But your passages, Zech 3:2 and Zech 3:4, are so much MORE powerful when applied to us as the people of God rather than Jesus Christ. Why try to develop a spiritually distant interpretation when a straight out representation makes more sense?

    Like this:
    Joshua (representing the people as high priest) stands before the angel of the Lord (often considered to be a Christophany in other places in the Old Testament), with Satan presenting an accusation. The LORD then says to Satan, "The LORD rebuke you, Satan;" for this given reason: "the LORD hath chosen Jerusalem...is not this a brand plucked from the fire?" Whether it be Jerusalem, the city, being rebuilt after being burned to the ground, or Joshua representing Israel (the people of Jerusalem), being brought back from captivity, either could be considered a brand plucked from the fire before invoking some other image that doesn't fit the text nearly so well.


    So... Jesus didn't "walk through the valley of the shadow of death"?
    Sure he did! But that doesn't automatically make every passage about death apply to Jesus, assuming the "fire" here is talking about "death". How many assumptions should we pile on top of each other when looking for some spiritualized content?



    So my LORD can't say to "His" LORD?

    John 5:39 ... and what exactly does "Tri-Une" mean again? Singular and Plural... Last I checked. Also... Typification is pretty important... especially that Jesus kind... wouldn't you say?
    But Joshua was not the one talking! Joshua was silent throughout the vision. Indeed "the LORD" (referring, I believe, to "the angel of the LORD") spoke of "the LORD" in the third person to Satan rather than second person. Therefore two parts of the trinity are already represented by "the Angel of the LORD" and the second use of "the LORD". Are you wanting a third person of the trinity to be represented here by Joshua, the silent party? The only one left is the Holy Spirit. Are you saying that "Joshua" is now the Holy Spirit and not "Jeshua"? If so, then you lose the word association (Joshua = Jesus), which you seemed to put some stock in.




    Derf... John 5:39 ... "Christology" ... this isn't that difficult... whatever angle you take... to say that God isn't referring to Himself in scripture in MANY places... through "typification" is to miss.. JOHN 5:39

    God talks to God Derf. Remember?
    God talks to God about God. You forgot that last part. God (Jesus) talks to God (the Father) about God (Jerusalem or the people of Israel). This is blasphemous, don't you think? To set up Jerusalem as God? or the nation of Israel as God?

    And in Ps 80:18-19, that you referenced before, there is a plurality speaking to God, requesting salvation. Does the Trinity (or at least two parts of it) need to be saved by a part of the Trinity?

    "Gospels" ???
    I don't understand this reference. Please elucidate.

    Again... John 5:39 is conflation now? If it is good... it points to Jesus... If it is bad... it doesn't. How complex is that?
    Interesting hermeneutic: let's apply it:
    Abigail brings food to David's men after Nabal refused (read about it in I Sam 25). Good or Bad? I'd say "Good". Therefore it must apply to Jesus Christ, right? Now David (a "good" king, and a man after God's own heart) also applies to Jesus Christ. So now you have Jesus Christ bringing Jesus Christ food. Make sense to you?

    Let's try another:
    Psalm 22:1 "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"---Good or Bad? Well, it's bad to be forsaken by God, so this must not be about Christ.

    Thanks for straightening me out on this.


    Carnal Death. To return to dust. Was this not the snakes charge? Do we not "return to dust" and one "eats dust"?
    I actually like your analogy here--that Satan, who became a dust eater, is tied to the death of mankind. The picture is more vivid when considering Jude 9, where Satan contends for the body (dust) of Moses. But did Satan cause the death of Moses, or just contend for his body afterward? Here's a clue: [Num 20:12 KJV] 12 And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron, Because ye believed me not, to sanctify me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore ye shall not bring this congregation into the land which I have given them.

    And, going back to Jude 9, why would Michael contend with Satan about the body of Moses, when God had designated Satan to be the eater of those bodies? This sounds more like what comes AFTER carnal death (your definition) rather than carnal death, itself.



    That is a trillion dollar question... isn't it. And... I would say... it has to do with not fearing "Carnal Death"... Because our true "life" is protected, preserved and sealed by Jesus Christ.

    Spiritual Death is indeed a term that can sever understanding. I prefer to attribute "blindness" to the term. Blind is what it really is. Blind to God. Not by God's doing... but our "Fear of the LIGHT"... like "Adam and Eve Hiding."
    I tend to agree, but if Jesus' resurrection is like unto our own, then it seems like the body (of a believer) is kept from Satan in some way (like Moses'), and that blinding is certainly attributed to Satan (2 Cor 4:4).

    Now you're cutting to the Theological quick. And... he's back!
    ...
    I love the way you put this!
    ...

    ...
    Yup ... Your musings here are outstanding!
    ...
    There's that sniper rifle! Well spoken, articulated, enunciated and expressed from multiple perspectives!
    ...
    I love it!
    ...
    You are always a blessing to me Derf ... I pray all is well for you and yours.
    Thanks for your encouraging words! To you and yours, likewise.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post
    I don't think I missed your point, but if you want to reiterate it for me, please do. I agree that Jesus bore our iniquities, and the high priest was always a bearer of iniquities of the whole of the people when he went into the holy of holies once a year--this is where the passage presents Joshua, and every other high priest before him, as a type of Christ. But your passages, Zech 3:2 and Zech 3:4, are so much MORE powerful when applied to us as the people of God rather than Jesus Christ. Why try to develop a spiritually distant interpretation when a straight out representation makes more sense?

    Like this:
    Joshua (representing the people as high priest) stands before the angel of the Lord (often considered to be a Christophany in other places in the Old Testament), with Satan presenting an accusation. The LORD then says to Satan, "The LORD rebuke you, Satan;" for this given reason: "the LORD hath chosen Jerusalem...is not this a brand plucked from the fire?" Whether it be Jerusalem, the city, being rebuilt after being burned to the ground, or Joshua representing Israel (the people of Jerusalem), being brought back from captivity, either could be considered a brand plucked from the fire before invoking some other image that doesn't fit the text nearly so well.


    Sure he did! But that doesn't automatically make every passage about death apply to Jesus, assuming the "fire" here is talking about "death". How many assumptions should we pile on top of each other when looking for some spiritualized content?



    But Joshua was not the one talking! Joshua was silent throughout the vision. Indeed "the LORD" (referring, I believe, to "the angel of the LORD") spoke of "the LORD" in the third person to Satan rather than second person. Therefore two parts of the trinity are already represented by "the Angel of the LORD" and the second use of "the LORD". Are you wanting a third person of the trinity to be represented here by Joshua, the silent party? The only one left is the Holy Spirit. Are you saying that "Joshua" is now the Holy Spirit and not "Jeshua"? If so, then you lose the word association (Joshua = Jesus), which you seemed to put some stock in.




    God talks to God about God. You forgot that last part. God (Jesus) talks to God (the Father) about God (Jerusalem or the people of Israel). This is blasphemous, don't you think? To set up Jerusalem as God? or the nation of Israel as God?

    And in Ps 80:18-19, that you referenced before, there is a plurality speaking to God, requesting salvation. Does the Trinity (or at least two parts of it) need to be saved by a part of the Trinity?

    I don't understand this reference. Please elucidate.

    Interesting hermeneutic: let's apply it:
    Abigail brings food to David's men after Nabal refused (read about it in I Sam 25). Good or Bad? I'd say "Good". Therefore it must apply to Jesus Christ, right? Now David (a "good" king, and a man after God's own heart) also applies to Jesus Christ. So now you have Jesus Christ bringing Jesus Christ food. Make sense to you?

    Let's try another:
    Psalm 22:1 "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"---Good or Bad? Well, it's bad to be forsaken by God, so this must not be about Christ.

    Thanks for straightening me out on this.


    I actually like your analogy here--that Satan, who became a dust eater, is tied to the death of mankind. The picture is more vivid when considering Jude 9, where Satan contends for the body (dust) of Moses. But did Satan cause the death of Moses, or just contend for his body afterward? Here's a clue: [Num 20:12 KJV] 12 And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron, Because ye believed me not, to sanctify me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore ye shall not bring this congregation into the land which I have given them.

    And, going back to Jude 9, why would Michael contend with Satan about the body of Moses, when God had designated Satan to be the eater of those bodies? This sounds more like what comes AFTER carnal death (your definition) rather than carnal death, itself.



    I tend to agree, but if Jesus' resurrection is like unto our own, then it seems like the body (of a believer) is kept from Satan in some way (like Moses'), and that blinding is certainly attributed to Satan (2 Cor 4:4).

    Thanks for your encouraging words! To you and yours, likewise.
    Obviously... Zechariah 3 is an area where we have differing opinions and some joined thought. I am certain that pushing this issue would simply result in a loop of perspective reiteration on both our parts. I feel like your last post was a high point of discussion here and I am going to leave it at your post.

    If you have any further ideas for stimulating discussion here... have at it... and I would enjoy doing so... but I think this thread is quite capped off and the last points we bounced back and forth... really give a depth and simplicity to all of it... that is excellent.

    Blindness... on that point specifically... absolutely and then some...

    I see Jude 9 being about the children of Israel collective... I.E. as we are the Body of Christ... they are the Body of Moses....

    But... Your point remains and stands as outstanding... from either perspective.

    Open (Beyond Time ...1 Ki. 8:27) Relational to us within Time (John 1:1)
    Dispensational (2 Ti. 2:15)
    It's All About Jesus and He's the theology (John 5:39f)
    Biblical (2 Ti. 3:16)
    Zionist (Rm. 11:25-36)
    There is only one Commentary!
    (1 John 2:27; Rm. 8:9; Php. 1:19; Mt. 23:8)

    Salvation is Free (Eph. 2:8f) !!! It depends on his strength, not mine!!! (2 Co. 12:9)

    Stupid things Tet says...

    Quote Originally Posted by tetelestai View Post
    The old heavens and old earth was the law and the Old Covenant.

    The new heavens and new earth is the New Covenant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Evil.Eye.<(I)> View Post
    Obviously... Zechariah 3 is an area where we have differing opinions and some joined thought. I am certain that pushing this issue would simply result in a loop of perspective reiteration on both our parts. I feel like your last post was a high point of discussion here and I am going to leave it at your post.

    If you have any further ideas for stimulating discussion here... have at it... and I would enjoy doing so... but I think this thread is quite capped off and the last points we bounced back and forth... really give a depth and simplicity to all of it... that is excellent.

    Blindness... on that point specifically... absolutely and then some...

    I see Jude 9 being about the children of Israel collective... I.E. as we are the Body of Christ... they are the Body of Moses....

    But... Your point remains and stands as outstanding... from either perspective.

    My main concern, EE, is the problem of spiritualizing too much of the bible. It's easy to do! Augustine did it quite a bit. Others did, too. My concern with it is that the more a passage is spiritualized, the more one can make it say whatever he wants it to say. So when you complain about Augustine's concept of original sin and Pelagius' dismissal of the same, I wonder whether there's anything left to complain about once the scriptural support is de-spiritualized.

    I've notice that you tend to spiritualize stuff quite a bit, the Joshua thing is a case in point. Not that there isn't a spiritual interpretation--there might be--but can your spiritualized interpretation be backed up somehow? Just finding another verse that affirms some of your interpretation is not enough, imo.

    And (also imo) over-spiritualization leads to blindness, because we miss what scripture is really telling us, in favor of what we want it to say.

    Let's keep each other accountable in this area, ok?
    Derf

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    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post
    My main concern, EE, is the problem of spiritualizing too much of the bible. It's easy to do! Augustine did it quite a bit. Others did, too. My concern with it is that the more a passage is spiritualized, the more one can make it say whatever he wants it to say. So when you complain about Augustine's concept of original sin and Pelagius' dismissal of the same, I wonder whether there's anything left to complain about once the scriptural support is de-spiritualized.

    I've notice that you tend to spiritualize stuff quite a bit, the Joshua thing is a case in point. Not that there isn't a spiritual interpretation--there might be--but can your spiritualized interpretation be backed up somehow? Just finding another verse that affirms some of your interpretation is not enough, imo.

    And (also imo) over-spiritualization leads to blindness, because we miss what scripture is really telling us, in favor of what we want it to say.

    Let's keep each other accountable in this area, ok?
    Derf
    Not even close Derf... You said "accountable"... I'm not selling anything... but Jesus name is Linguistically Joshua... and on top of that... there's so many Jesus references in Zechariah 3 that it is odd to me that the theological community can't see it.

    Spiritualized? "Few Scriptures"?

    Derf?!?

    Rv. 12:3-4 to Ezekiel 28:13-17, 2-5 to Isaiah 14:12-15,19 to Genesis 3:1-5, 14-15 to Psalms 89:37-45; Matthew 2:16-18

    Rv. 12:5 to Genesis 49:8-12 to Isaiah 7:14-15 to Luke 1:46-55 to Luke 2:4-20
    (John 13:33 - John 14:6 parallel with Matthew 26:31-35) to Matthew 27:50-53 to Luke 24:46 to (1 Peter 3:18-20 parallel with Philippians 1:19)

    Zechariah 3:1-2 to Jude 1:9 to Deuteronomy 4:20 to Amos 4:11 to Acts 7:56 to Job 2:2-5 to James 2:13

    ........... Zechariah 3:3-5 to Leviticus 22:3 to Galatians 3:19-26 to John 16:8-11 to Deuteronomy 19:15-21 to Deuteronomy 17:6 to Philippians 2:5-11 to 1 Timothy 2:5-6 to 1 Timothy 3:4-7 to 1 Timothy 3:16 to 2 Timothy 1:8-10 to 1 John 4:6-9 to 1 John 5:7 to John 18:37 to John 19:10, 12 to Ephesians 4:8

    Zechariah 3:6-7 to Psalms 2:2, 6-12

    Zechariah 3:8 to John 15:1-8 to Hebrews 4:8-16

    Zechariah 3:9 to 1 Peter 2:1-10 to Revelation 3:21 to Revelation 3:12 to Revelation 3:5 to Zechariah 3:3 to Revelation 2:17 to Revelation 2:25-29 to Revelation 5:6 to Revelation 12:7-12 to 1 Peter 5:8-9 to Hebrews 2:14 to Revelation 1:8

    Zechariah 3:10; 6:9-15 to John 15:1

    Zechariah 6:9-15 to Revelation 4:10-11 to Revelation 11:16-18 to Revelation 19:11-12, 21

    Hebrews 4:8-9 to Matthew 11:25-30 to Matthew 12:7 to Hebrews 4:10 to Romans 4:4-5 to Hebrews 4:11 to Psalms 95:7-11 to Exodus 17:1-7 to Numbers 20:2-13

    Hebrews 4:11 to Deuteronomy 12:9 to Hebrews 4:12-13 to Galatians 3:22 to John 5:39 to John 3:16-17 to Hebrews 4:14-16

    Derf... my main concern is that you have a definite bias against what I'm stating. I'm convinced enough by "all" scripture that I'm not spouting worthless rhetoric on this one. It's far from spiritualized babbling.

    I'm certain you don't like the idea... but that makes it as "incorrect" as my confidence "makes it correct".

    I'm stating a giant agree to disagree on your summation of how I arrived at the conclusion I'm at.
    Open (Beyond Time ...1 Ki. 8:27) Relational to us within Time (John 1:1)
    Dispensational (2 Ti. 2:15)
    It's All About Jesus and He's the theology (John 5:39f)
    Biblical (2 Ti. 3:16)
    Zionist (Rm. 11:25-36)
    There is only one Commentary!
    (1 John 2:27; Rm. 8:9; Php. 1:19; Mt. 23:8)

    Salvation is Free (Eph. 2:8f) !!! It depends on his strength, not mine!!! (2 Co. 12:9)

    Stupid things Tet says...

    Quote Originally Posted by tetelestai View Post
    The old heavens and old earth was the law and the Old Covenant.

    The new heavens and new earth is the New Covenant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Evil.Eye.<(I)> View Post
    Not even close Derf... You said "accountable"... I'm not selling anything... but Jesus name is Linguistically Joshua... and on top of that... there's so many Jesus references in Zechariah 3 that it is odd to me that the theological community can't see it.

    Spiritualized? "Few Scriptures"?

    Derf?!?

    Rv. 12:3-4 to Ezekiel 28:13-17, 2-5 to Isaiah 14:12-15,19 to Genesis 3:1-5, 14-15 to Psalms 89:37-45; Matthew 2:16-18

    Rv. 12:5 to Genesis 49:8-12 to Isaiah 7:14-15 to Luke 1:46-55 to Luke 2:4-20
    (John 13:33 - John 14:6 parallel with Matthew 26:31-35) to Matthew 27:50-53 to Luke 24:46 to (1 Peter 3:18-20 parallel with Philippians 1:19)

    Zechariah 3:1-2 to Jude 1:9 to Deuteronomy 4:20 to Amos 4:11 to Acts 7:56 to Job 2:2-5 to James 2:13

    ........... Zechariah 3:3-5 to Leviticus 22:3 to Galatians 3:19-26 to John 16:8-11 to Deuteronomy 19:15-21 to Deuteronomy 17:6 to Philippians 2:5-11 to 1 Timothy 2:5-6 to 1 Timothy 3:4-7 to 1 Timothy 3:16 to 2 Timothy 1:8-10 to 1 John 4:6-9 to 1 John 5:7 to John 18:37 to John 19:10, 12 to Ephesians 4:8

    Zechariah 3:6-7 to Psalms 2:2, 6-12

    Zechariah 3:8 to John 15:1-8 to Hebrews 4:8-16

    Zechariah 3:9 to 1 Peter 2:1-10 to Revelation 3:21 to Revelation 3:12 to Revelation 3:5 to Zechariah 3:3 to Revelation 2:17 to Revelation 2:25-29 to Revelation 5:6 to Revelation 12:7-12 to 1 Peter 5:8-9 to Hebrews 2:14 to Revelation 1:8

    Zechariah 3:10; 6:9-15 to John 15:1

    Zechariah 6:9-15 to Revelation 4:10-11 to Revelation 11:16-18 to Revelation 19:11-12, 21

    Hebrews 4:8-9 to Matthew 11:25-30 to Matthew 12:7 to Hebrews 4:10 to Romans 4:4-5 to Hebrews 4:11 to Psalms 95:7-11 to Exodus 17:1-7 to Numbers 20:2-13

    Hebrews 4:11 to Deuteronomy 12:9 to Hebrews 4:12-13 to Galatians 3:22 to John 5:39 to John 3:16-17 to Hebrews 4:14-16

    Derf... my main concern is that you have a definite bias against what I'm stating. I'm convinced enough by "all" scripture that I'm not spouting worthless rhetoric on this one. It's far from spiritualized babbling.

    I'm certain you don't like the idea... but that makes it as "incorrect" as my confidence "makes it correct".

    I'm stating a giant agree to disagree on your summation of how I arrived at the conclusion I'm at.
    I don't agree with your "giant agree to disagree". What do you think of that???

    No offense meant here, but your list of scripture proofs is mostly just a list of scriptures that apply to Jesus, but not related to the image of Joshua in Zech 3. I could just as easily post the same long list of scriptures and claim that it upholds my side of the debate.

    I have one more thing to say about this, and then I'll (try to) leave it alone. And I'll use your words to show your words are wrong, or at least inconsistent. ([Mat 7:2b KJV] with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Evil.Eye.<(I)> View Post
    Zechariah 3:1-2 to Jude 1:9 to Deuteronomy 4:20 to Amos 4:11 to Acts 7:56 to Job 2:2-5 to James 2:13
    ........... Zechariah 3:3-5
    Quote Originally Posted by Evil.Eye.<(I)> View Post
    I see Jude 9 being about the children of Israel collective... I.E. as we are the Body of Christ... they are the Body of Moses....
    First, I want to say that your interpretation of Jude 9--that the "body of Moses" was the people of Israel rather than the physical body of Moses--makes sense of a passage I've struggled with. When did this event take place that Jude records?? Not obviously in Deut 34:5-6 at the death of Moses--at least it wasn't recorded so for us. Zech 3:2 seems to be the answer--this is the only place in the bible that I know of where an angel of some type called for rebuke of Satan, and he used the exact same words as Jude records. Joshua, the high priest who represents the people of God, stood before a judge-like figure in filthy clothes--as breakers of the law of Moses they had covenanted with God to keep--with Satan accusing him/them, and an angel said, "The LORD rebuke you."

    If, then, Zech 3:2 is referring to Joshua as "the body of Moses", then it can't be Jesus, since you make the point that the body of Jesus is not the same as the body of Moses. Thus, sense is made of the passage, where Jesus the son talks to God the Father about the people of God (the body of Moses). It would not make sense, as I said in my previous post, if Jesus talked to the Father about...some other part of the Trinity (curiously also named "Jesus"), or if He talked about Himself.

    One more thing. In Zech 3:4, the Angel of the LORD spoke unto Joshua, saying, "Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment." This (note my underlining) is another indication that the Angel of the LORD (vs 1), who is also called "the LORD" (vs 2) is actually Jesus. BUT, if Jude called that entity "Michael", do we now have a conflict?

    I always thought it sad that Jehovah's Witnesses insisted that Michael and Jesus are the same person (I still do, since they believe Jesus was a created being). But I was intrigued when reading some of the margin notes in the Geneva Bible (fortunately a modernized version that didn't have those funny f's in place of the s's). The Geneva Bible claimed that Michael, as spoken of in Daniel 10:13, was in fact Jesus. Click here for a pdf of the Geneva Bible page. I wasn't so sure until I reread that Zech 3 passage alongside Jude 9. Now, I'm starting to see it as a good possibility. Here's a whole article on this subject, if you're interested. I'm not endorsing everything the guy says, but it's interesting reading.

    Anyway, I think I've at least given credence to my point, that Satan was not accusing Jesus Christ in this scripture (Zech 3).

    Now, to try to get back on track with the thread topic, since I think the Zech 3 discussion was a bit red-herring-ish, I think I want to revisit your post right as you were trying to "bow out" and accidently closed the thread temporarily. I'll do that in my next post, and you can help me to see if I'm misunderstanding where you're coming from.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Evil.Eye.<(I)> View Post
    Derf... you are an amazing listener and stellar peacemaker... by God's will! This is clear. As you note... I'm bowing out... but your last response here nailed it! You got my gist. I'll lay it out succinctly to verify your suspicions.
    As promised, I wanted to review some of your assertions. I'll call these my "Yes, but" responses.

    1. God creates all of His Creations "Innocent" and with "Neutral Free Will".
    Yes, but Adam and Eve had a part in creating all of the men and women that followed them. So if God created all of His creations "Innocent" and with "neutral free will", but man created all of his creations with something else, there would be a mixture of the two, somehow. After all, [Gen 5:3 KJV] And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat [a son] in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:

    2. Evil results from abuse of "Freewill", but is allowed by God to foster sincere Love.
    I agree.
    3. Evil was present in the Garden
    Agree.
    4. Adam and Eve were swayed by Evil... away from their innocence.
    Agree.
    5. God's personal standards of Righteousness and God's Knowledge became a burden that the Devil could impute against mankind... and per 1 Corinthians 15:54-56 ... use to separate a human being from God... as well as kill the flesh.
    Yes, but is "separating a human being from God" any different from "killing the flesh"? For instance, if Adam and Eve were separated from God by their act, why did God visit with Cain? This may support your view, but why, then, do we all not have some personal encounter with God, apart from Jesus Christ. It seems that most people, prior to meeting Jesus Christ, do not have any kind of personal relationship with God, so doesn't' that mean they are separate from God?
    6. If the subjection of a person to carnal death implies a "tainted nature"... then Jesus would have been with "Sin"... because He "Died"... thus the very idea is defunct and immediately disproven.
    Yes, but Jesus died from a different reason than everybody else. (I talked about this before, so no more here)
    7. Carnal influence only had sway over Spiritual fate... until Jesus paid our "Ransom".
    Not sure what you're getting at, here. Carnal influence has sway over more than spiritual fate, but what is "spiritual fate", anyway?
    8. Men like Enoch and Elijah being "taken up... support my "theory"... as they "walked by faith" and were never grasped by Satan. They were never "Sinless"... but they clearly maintained Faith... without waiver... and thus... they maintained "innocence" in the eyes of God from birth to being "taken up".
    Yes, but if they were NEVER sinless, then were they not born with sin somehow applied to their accounts??? Why is this different than @Lon's view? And how is it possible that they can have faith before or as they are being born that counteracts, somehow, the sin they are born with? Especially if you think they at some point need to make a choice?
    9. All men eventually deviate from the perfection of God... "miss the mark" EXCEPT the Son of God and Man... God the Son.
    Yes, but "eventually" seems too open-ended, allowing for people that stay sin-free until they die carnally. If that is the case, then does the death of Christ really apply to them? If so, why? If not, was He really the savior of all mankind? If the Word says "All have sinned...", but it only means "All that have come to the point of sinning have sinned", don't we dilute the gospel, since there then must be people out there that it doesn't really apply to, at least not yet? And some may die before they get to that point.

    Or another option is that in order for the "All have sinned" from Rom 3:23 to be true, it would mean that for those that will die early (for whatever cause), God has to MAKE them sin in order to make sure the verse is true, thus becoming the author of sin.

    Hebrews 2:14 explains that Jesus freed us from Deaths grasp in us and though carnal death continues... mankind is freed from the Spiritual impact of sin.

    Over arching points...

    A. Mankind has choice and starts with "innocence
    B. Only Jesus lived a life in "the flesh" without committing a single sin or succumbing to the Devil.
    Yep!
    C. All but Jesus Fail
    Yes, but there's still that issue of whether someone can make it some length of time in life before failing--and what if they die before that happens?
    D. Jesus was condemned by Satan as a transgressor... and because this made Satan a "False Witness and False Judge"... he lost his "self appointed" "wrongfully usurped" "spiritual reign"... and his reign of this ephemeral "dust" will come to a close... as well.
    I think Satan made himself a false witness. Was he ever a judge, or just an accuser?
    E. God does not condemn a single soul that is innocent or impute sin to a man before it is legitimately present in thought, word, deed or feeling... and thusly... All men are righteously in need of salvation as all men fail.
    Except for babies?? Or young kids? Or even some older folks that just haven't got to the point of failing yet? I think this is where there has to be some kind of recognition that as soon as it is possible to fail, all men fail. And if that is so, it's a pretty good indication of a "nature" of sinning. Is it possible that even in the womb, an infant can make some choices for good vs evil? or is there an "age of accountability" after which it is counted against us?
    F. Jesus has always been the origin of Good, the solution to Evil and Loving sustainer of all... That has never changed... from before the foundation.
    Halleluyah!
    G. All men are righteously given a chance... All men fail... all men are equally in need of salvation and all men are provided access to it... BY GOD and HIS WILL.
    I have questions about how men that haven't heard the gospel are provided access to it.

    All Grace... In Him,

    - EE
    I hope you see that your assertions don't seem to line up with each other. If there are no people that ever make it without sinning, then there seems to be an innate drive to sin, because otherwise there would be some that make it for a little while without sinning--that "eventually" factor wouldn't be reached if one dies, say, one second after birth, or one second after one reaches the proposed age of accountability.

    And if we think all sin at the very earliest opportunity, aren't we then agreeing with the "Total Depravity" plank of Calvin?

    Personally, I'd like it better if we could say that we are all slated to die for the sin of Adam, and most of us have and take multitude opportunities to add our own sins on to that. But whether we add to it or not, we all need a savior--because we all die.

    All the best,
    Derf

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