User Tag List

Page 6 of 7 FirstFirst ... 34567 LastLast
Results 76 to 90 of 105

Thread: Pela... Who? Don't know him! and how Augustine Original Sin has been addressed.

  1. #76
    BANNED
    Join Date
    Aug 2016
    Location
    A distant planet called earth.
    Posts
    5,145
    Thanks
    6,742
    Thanked 1,825 Times in 1,401 Posts

    Blog Entries
    9
    Mentioned
    13 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by dodge View Post
    The sin nature ( not a gene but a curse passed from Adam to ALL humans ) was not present in Jesus as evidenced by Jesus having no human father.

    1Co 15:22
    For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.



    Scripture says Jesus was tempted as we are yet He was without sin.

    You are trying to make Jesus like all of humanity and Jesus is and was uniquely and unique in the fact that He existed before He was born, was born of a virgin with no human father, lived a sinless life while being tempted just as we are, was crucified, rose from the dead, was seen for 40 days by hundreds of people after He rose from the dead, ascended into heaven,and is returning for His church i.e. His bride.
    In brief... I've bowed out of this one for now... out of response to Lon's rightful note of my being out of line in demeanor.

    I'll leave you with 4 questions and one run of scripture, in response to your "perception"... that is not properly representative of what I have extensively written on.

    1. Is Jesus Christ Fully God?
    2. Is Jesus Christ Fully man?
    3. Was He tempted exactly as we are?
    4. Does God play with a "rigged" deck... IOW "Cheat"?
    5. What is the significance of these 5 verses... in light of this discussion... (2 Corinthians 11:3, Matthew 4:1, Hebrews 2:14, Hebrews 4:15, 1 Corinthians 15:54-56)

  2. #77
    BANNED
    Join Date
    Aug 2016
    Location
    A distant planet called earth.
    Posts
    5,145
    Thanks
    6,742
    Thanked 1,825 Times in 1,401 Posts

    Blog Entries
    9
    Mentioned
    13 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post
    And I feel a little bad about jumping in, but it seems you are at an impasse with Lon--although I am encouraged by your more recent posts recognizing a contentious spirit. I'm not about to suggest that infants deserve eternal damnation before they have sinned, but at the same time, the death that was promised to Adam indeed comes upon all infants, whether they grow up or not. If that is "carnal" death rather than some other kind, and thus is not part of the question, then it seems important to define terms a little better, as well as to determine where this fate you or Lon claim or don't claim for infants can be ascertained, as it doesn't seem like the original sin fits the bill.

    But if the death promised to Adam, and propagated to all his descendants is the one that prevents eternal life (as evidenced by the restriction of access to the Tree of Life), then it does seem like infants that die the "carnal" kind of death are indeed being removed from the "eternal" life rolls. And if that is so, then if there is a difference now than before, as you seem to think, where is the evidence of such a difference?

    I'm not just trying to take Lon's side in this, but I hope I can get you settled down enough to verbalize (or type) your objections in a way that is not obscured by the emotional side you so easily slip into. I sincerely want to hear your side.

    Personally, I haven't been able to find an answer from scripture other than that they die. And eternal life is not very eternal if one dies. Plus, Christ's resurrection is our hope, and I can't imagine it's not the infants' hope as well, not to mention their necessity, to overcome death.
    Derf... you are an amazing listener and stellar peacemaker... by God's will! This is clear. As you note... I'm bowing out... but your last response here nailed it! You got my gist. I'll lay it out succinctly to verify your suspicions.

    1. God creates all of His Creations "Innocent" and with "Neutral Free Will".
    2. Evil results from abuse of "Freewill", but is allowed by God to foster sincere Love.
    3. Evil was present in the Garden
    4. Adam and Eve were swayed by Evil... away from their innocence.
    5. God's personal standards of Righteousness and God's Knowledge became a burden that the Devil could impute against mankind... and per 1 Corinthians 15:54-56 ... use to separate a human being from God... as well as kill the flesh.
    6. If the subjection of a person to carnal death implies a "tainted nature"... then Jesus would have been with "Sin"... because He "Died"... thus the very idea is defunct and immediately disproven.
    7. Carnal influence only had sway over Spiritual fate... until Jesus paid our "Ransom".
    8. Men like Enoch and Elijah being "taken up... support my "theory"... as they "walked by faith" and were never grasped by Satan. They were never "Sinless"... but they clearly maintained Faith... without waiver... and thus... they maintained "innocence" in the eyes of God from birth to being "taken up".
    9. All men eventually deviate from the perfection of God... "miss the mark" EXCEPT the Son of God and Man... God the Son.

    Hebrews 2:14 explains that Jesus freed us from Deaths grasp in us and though carnal death continues... mankind is freed from the Spiritual impact of sin.

    Over arching points...

    A. Mankind has choice and starts with "innocence
    B. Only Jesus lived a life in "the flesh" without committing a single sin or succumbing to the Devil.
    C. All but Jesus Fail
    D. Jesus was condemned by Satan as a transgressor... and because this made Satan a "False Witness and False Judge"... he lost his "self appointed" "wrongfully usurped" "spiritual reign"... and his reign of this ephemeral "dust" will come to a close... as well.
    E. God does not condemn a single soul that is innocent or impute sin to a man before it is legitimately present in thought, word, deed or feeling... and thusly... All men are righteously in need of salvation as all men fail.
    F. Jesus has always been the origin of Good, the solution to Evil and Loving sustainer of all... That has never changed... from before the foundation.
    G. All men are righteously given a chance... All men fail... all men are equally in need of salvation and all men are provided access to it... BY GOD and HIS WILL.

    And yes... your notes on RCC doctrine towards either the Roman or Reformed side... in conjunction with my "verbalization" are spot on.

    All Grace... In Him,

    - EE
    Last edited by Evil.Eye.<(I)>; August 16th, 2017 at 11:35 PM.

  3. #78
    BANNED
    Join Date
    Aug 2016
    Location
    A distant planet called earth.
    Posts
    5,145
    Thanks
    6,742
    Thanked 1,825 Times in 1,401 Posts

    Blog Entries
    9
    Mentioned
    13 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    0
    @Derf and @dodge ... upon recognition of your wishes... I reopened the thread. I actually didn't mean for it to close... but I was going to let it be.

  4. #79
    TOL Subscriber glorydaz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    17,706
    Thanks
    7,843
    Thanked 25,301 Times in 12,799 Posts

    Blog Entries
    1
    Mentioned
    72 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)


    Rep Power
    2147732
    Quote Originally Posted by Evil.Eye.<(I)> View Post

    1. Is Jesus Christ Fully God?
    2. Is Jesus Christ Fully man?
    3. Was He tempted exactly as we are?
    4. Does God play with a "rigged" deck... IOW "Cheat"?
    I'm glad you opened this back up, because this is exactly what I wanted to address. I believe one false teaching leads to another and another and we see it in this case. This insane doctrine of original sin leads to teachings of total depravity which leads to the claim Jesus had to have some special help (a different nature) in being sinless....robbing him of His great victory over sin. That in turn has given man an excuse to be trapped in this "body of sin", unable to do what Jesus did. It's a crock. And too many people have fallen for this lie. They have gone so far as to claim they really have no power over sin...since their nature is not what our Lord's was.

    One lie leading to another and swallowed by those who should know better.

  5. #80
    BANNED
    Join Date
    Aug 2016
    Location
    A distant planet called earth.
    Posts
    5,145
    Thanks
    6,742
    Thanked 1,825 Times in 1,401 Posts

    Blog Entries
    9
    Mentioned
    13 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    I'm glad you opened this back up, because this is exactly what I wanted to address. I believe one false teaching leads to another and another and we see it in this case. This insane doctrine of original sin leads to teachings of total depravity which leads to the claim Jesus had to have some special help (a different nature) in being sinless....robbing him of His great victory over sin. That in turn has given man an excuse to be trapped in this "body of sin", unable to do what Jesus did. It's a crock. And too many people have fallen for this lie. They have gone so far as to claim they really have no power over sin...since their nature is not what our Lord's was.

    One lie leading to another and swallowed by those who should know better.
    I will leave it open. I'm not sure why it closed. But... I'll attempt to take a more support of cross dialogue stance than full on participant. I'm glad it's reopening is positive.

  6. #81
    BANNED
    Join Date
    Aug 2016
    Location
    A distant planet called earth.
    Posts
    5,145
    Thanks
    6,742
    Thanked 1,825 Times in 1,401 Posts

    Blog Entries
    9
    Mentioned
    13 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    I'm glad you opened this back up, because this is exactly what I wanted to address. I believe one false teaching leads to another and another and we see it in this case. This insane doctrine of original sin leads to teachings of total depravity which leads to the claim Jesus had to have some special help (a different nature) in being sinless....robbing him of His great victory over sin. That in turn has given man an excuse to be trapped in this "body of sin", unable to do what Jesus did. It's a crock. And too many people have fallen for this lie. They have gone so far as to claim they really have no power over sin...since their nature is not what our Lord's was.

    One lie leading to another and swallowed by those who should know better.
    In saying this... I believe you are pointing out how... though our salvation is completely removed from this particular point of discussion... there is "victory" provided by Jesus. Also... God has allowed mankind to act out of Love and do positive things... like the "good Samaritan" and such to stave off a darkening that will no doubt come to this earth... when the love of many grows cold.

    James 4:7 comes to my mind... "Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you"

    We have losses... but God doesn't "prevent" victory... unless "humility" is the order... then God serves up "humble pie"...

    Idk... something like that?

  7. #82
    TOL Subscriber glorydaz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    17,706
    Thanks
    7,843
    Thanked 25,301 Times in 12,799 Posts

    Blog Entries
    1
    Mentioned
    72 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)


    Rep Power
    2147732
    Quote Originally Posted by Evil.Eye.<(I)> View Post
    In saying this... I believe you are pointing out how... though our salvation is completely removed from this particular point of discussion... there is "victory" provided by Jesus. Also... God has allowed mankind to act out of Love and do positive things... like the "good Samaritan" and such to stave off a darkening that will no doubt come to this earth... when th love of many grows cold.

    James 4:7 comes to my mind... "Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you"

    We have losses... but God doesn't "prevent" victory... unless "humility" is the order... then God serves up "humble pie"...

    Idk... something like that?
    Well, more in the line of a total misunderstanding of human nature, and how the scripture has been used to promote man's inability to overcome this "sinful nature" of ours.

  8. #83
    BANNED
    Join Date
    Aug 2016
    Location
    A distant planet called earth.
    Posts
    5,145
    Thanks
    6,742
    Thanked 1,825 Times in 1,401 Posts

    Blog Entries
    9
    Mentioned
    13 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    Well, more in the line of a total misunderstanding of human nature, and how the scripture has been used to promote man's inability to overcome this "sinful nature" of ours.
    Hmmmmm... "Over Come" is a strong word. I will be sincere... I reserve that word for Jesus. I only say that I overcome "through His Victory".

    As far as "overcoming" the trappings of sinful surroundings and corruption... I see a definite "corruption" that scars us over time. I always count forgiveness as the "victory"... but I'm not sure I can associate "overcome" with myself. I maintain perpetual remembrance of my need for Christ and allow Success to bring thanks and failure to bring the lessons God sees fit.

    Honestly... I become very uncomfortable at any premise that we can overcome... as He did.

    Maybe, That's just me, though.

    For me... I believe we are easily shaped by sin and thus... failure marks us in a way that caused the Apostle Paul to say... "who will save me from this body of death"...

    I also remember Matthew 7:11 ... if you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him

  9. #84
    Over 4000 post club dodge's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    4,649
    Thanks
    1,192
    Thanked 1,058 Times in 841 Posts

    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    152247
    Quote Originally Posted by Evil.Eye.<(I)> View Post
    In brief... I've bowed out of this one for now... out of response to Lon's rightful note of my being out of line in demeanor.

    I'll leave you with 4 questions and one run of scripture, in response to your "perception"... that is not properly representative of what I have extensively written on.

    1. Is Jesus Christ Fully God?
    2. Is Jesus Christ Fully man?
    3. Was He tempted exactly as we are?
    4. Does God play with a "rigged" deck... IOW "Cheat"?
    5. What is the significance of these 5 verses... in light of this discussion... (2 Corinthians 11:3, Matthew 4:1, Hebrews 2:14, Hebrews 4:15, 1 Corinthians 15:54-56)
    Didn't have a reply feature last night !

    1. Yes
    2. Yes
    3. Yes
    4. No - God by His very nature cannot be UN Holy. God makes the rules NOT man.

    No one verse negates another. In Adam "all" die as in Christ "all" live that place their faith in Him.
    Heb 4:2
    For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

  10. #85
    TOL Subscriber glorydaz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    17,706
    Thanks
    7,843
    Thanked 25,301 Times in 12,799 Posts

    Blog Entries
    1
    Mentioned
    72 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)


    Rep Power
    2147732
    Quote Originally Posted by Evil.Eye.<(I)> View Post
    Hmmmmm... "Over Come" is a strong word. I will be sincere... I reserve that word for Jesus. I only say that I overcome "through His Victory".

    As far as "overcoming" the trappings of sinful surroundings and corruption... I see a definite "corruption" that scars us over time. I always count forgiveness as the "victory"... but I'm not sure I can associate "overcome" with myself. I maintain perpetual remembrance of my need for Christ and allow Success to bring thanks and failure to bring the lessons God sees fit.

    Honestly... I become very uncomfortable at any premise that we can overcome... as He did.

    Maybe, That's just me, though.
    Relax. You misunderstood what I was saying.

  11. The Following User Says Thank You to glorydaz For Your Post:

    Evil.Eye.<(I)> (August 17th, 2017)

  12. #86
    BANNED
    Join Date
    Aug 2016
    Location
    A distant planet called earth.
    Posts
    5,145
    Thanks
    6,742
    Thanked 1,825 Times in 1,401 Posts

    Blog Entries
    9
    Mentioned
    13 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    Relax. You misunderstood what I was saying.
    Sort of... I wanted to defend what you had said by being the perceived counter perspective... that you indeed adhere to. People are so quick to tank this topic that they look for surfaces to grab on to and begin attack.

    This is a spiritual war over the "Character" of God and I know what you actually mean. Mankind is not saddled with "inability". That is your actual statement and it is expounded on well.

    I just don't want the ensuing discussion to come to try to pull the oky doke on what you actually meant... which is paramount to scripture.

  13. #87
    BANNED
    Join Date
    Aug 2016
    Location
    A distant planet called earth.
    Posts
    5,145
    Thanks
    6,742
    Thanked 1,825 Times in 1,401 Posts

    Blog Entries
    9
    Mentioned
    13 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by dodge View Post
    Didn't have a reply feature last night !

    1. Yes
    2. Yes
    3. Yes
    4. No - God by His very nature cannot be UN Holy. God makes the rules NOT man.

    No one verse negates another. In Adam "all" die as in Christ "all" live that place their faith in Him.
    I agree.

    Note... the "Death" you cite is "Carnal". The "Spiritual" side of this is the actual discussion. It always has been.

    Death was allowed to "serpent strike" through the events that occurred in Eden. This has never been a point of contention.

    Thanks for giving me grace and participating... even though I have been a stinker in the past. I actually would like discussion to grow on this that has open heart and mind to point and counter point.

  14. #88
    Over 4000 post club dodge's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    4,649
    Thanks
    1,192
    Thanked 1,058 Times in 841 Posts

    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    152247
    Quote Originally Posted by Evil.Eye.<(I)> View Post
    I agree.

    Note... the "Death" you cite is "Carnal". The "Spiritual" side of this is the actual discussion. It always has been.

    Death was allowed to "serpent strike" through the events that occurred in Eden. This has never been a point of contention.

    Thanks for giving me grace and participating... even though I have been a stinker in the past. I actually would like discussion to grow on this that has open heart and mind to point and counter point.
    The death brought on in Eden is twofold. The first death is physical ( everyone dies ) and the second death is spiritual ( those in Christ only die once ) for those who reject Jesus.

    EE, you have been no more of a stinker than anyone on the site, myself included.

    We may never agree on "original sin" but the fact and truth is one belief of the two is wrong and not rooted in truth;however, by letting the scriptures teach the scriptures the truth can be gleaned !

    EE, why do you believe Jesus said " you must be born again" if people are not born spiritually dead ? What would be the need to be born again "spiritually" if people are not born spiritually dead ?
    Heb 4:2
    For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

  15. #89
    BANNED
    Join Date
    Aug 2016
    Location
    A distant planet called earth.
    Posts
    5,145
    Thanks
    6,742
    Thanked 1,825 Times in 1,401 Posts

    Blog Entries
    9
    Mentioned
    13 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by dodge View Post
    The death brought on in Eden is twofold. The first death is physical ( everyone dies ) and the second death is spiritual ( those in Christ only die once ) for those who reject Jesus.

    EE, you have been no more of a stinker than anyone on the site, myself included.

    We may never agree on "original sin" but the fact and truth is one belief of the two is wrong and not rooted in truth;however, by letting the scriptures teach the scriptures the truth can be gleaned !
    Fair enough... I digress now and step slightly aside... to take up facilitation... versus argumentation...

    All blessings in His Grace,

    - EE

  16. #90
    BANNED
    Join Date
    Aug 2016
    Location
    A distant planet called earth.
    Posts
    5,145
    Thanks
    6,742
    Thanked 1,825 Times in 1,401 Posts

    Blog Entries
    9
    Mentioned
    13 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    0
    @Derf ... you sent me a counter point that I would enjoy addressing. If you're okay with it... I have no issue with it being posted here. I think I need to make a clarification... and appreciate your observation.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
About us
Since 1997 TheologyOnline (TOL) has been one of the most popular theology forums on the internet. On TOL we encourage spirited conversation about religion, politics, and just about everything else.

follow us