User Tag List

Page 1 of 7 1234 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 104

Thread: Pela... Who? Don't know him! and how Augustine Original Sin has been addressed.

  1. #1
    "That is why you Fail" Evil.Eye.<(I)>'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2016
    Location
    A distant planet called earth.
    Posts
    4,904
    Thanks
    6,504
    Thanked 1,753 Times in 1,354 Posts

    Blog Entries
    9
    Mentioned
    12 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    358075

    Pela... Who? Don't know him! and how Augustine Original Sin has been addressed.

    The Bible reveals two simple Truths that are easy to glean. There is Good... and God is that GOOD... and there is Evil... and that isn't and never has been "God's Will". God is a permissive God of Loving facilitation... and Free Will.

    Love without Free Choice and Free Reciprocation is an artificial intelligence that drifts off of the track of sincerity. The bottom line? God granted freedom to all of His Creations and permitted the resulting chaos that ensued... because Sincerity and Honesty are ingredients of reality that destroy the association of the label "Genuine"... with anything they are removed from.

    If... there is No honest choice or sincere reciprocation or rejection involved in love... what ever replicates Love and claims to be Love is nothing more than an artificial act that is rooted in passionless mockery!

    So...

    As a friend pointed out... knowingly or unknowingly... it all boils down to what a person believes the crafty serpent means to the ancient narrative of our origin.

    Does good "employ" evil to work its ill behind secret doors... or does evil usurp, interject and thrust itself upon Good in an attempt to use its goodness against it?

    I've written out my take on this painstakingly and believe that it exists to still a back and forth that almost started again.

    Here it is quoted in its entirety and void of the intermission that I had included...

    All of God's best to all of you...

    - EE

    One note... there are places where you may need to link to the original OP to see all quotation and verses... as quotes didn't "quote"... into this OP.

    Quote Originally Posted by Evil.Eye.<(I)> View Post
    What is the Strongest proof text for classical Origonal Sin? (Romans 5:18)

    Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.

    In close evaluation it seems cut and dry... but note... judgment enters through one man's offense. This verse does not say that Adams sin was imputed to all men... it says judgment entered through one man.

    God doesn't judge like the judge this verse is referring to, judges... we know this by these words...

    John 8:15 (editing in... @DAN P had an excellent point of observation that allowed me to further clarify the intent of posting this scripture... Link here

    You judge according to the flesh; I judge no one.

    Did you catch that? Jesus doesn't judge according to the flesh! That means that the Adversary does this and it is the "Mark or Seal" of those he has deceived!


    This logically leads one to ask what offense condemns the whole world and who is condemning it? Who is the originator of sin?

    Ezekiel 28:15 & Ezek. 28:17

    You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created,
    Till iniquity was found in you. ... Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty;
    You corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor;
    .

    Did you see it? The heart is lifted up with pride when we look to "ourselves". God judges the heart! This is the mechanism that the Devil thirsts to turn against mankind and God. By convincing us to "Be like Jesus", the Devil is corrupting our hearts! He's a roaring lion, seeking to whom he may devour! His tactics are lame and tiresome, but that crafty old dragon keeps corrupting the source of our redemption by tainting the doctrine with lies and inconsistency that cover up his simple deceit!

    Isaiah 14:14

    I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
    I will be like the Most High.’

    Who is the "Most High"? I'll give you a hint... HE has the name above ALL names.

    Genesis 3:5

    For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

    Why does this matter? It matters because the very originator of sin has fooled the majority of the church into missing his tired old tactics. He wanted to be like God! Pride!

    The Original Sin is Pride and a desire to "Be Like God".

    The creation is forever imperfect in comparison to the Creator. Flesh is a quick word to refer to all of creation with. All of creation that is alive has some form of covering or flesh. Even the dust of the earth is likened to flesh.

    Satan... that old dragonesk serpent... wanted to "be like God". He wanted God's authority and dominion. The fallout from all of this? We are deceived to believe that sin is complex and that every action we do throughout the day could disconnect us from God. This is the shame and deceit that made Adam and Eve cover their bodies. Shame of what? Shame of God's provision! Their bodies were the cloths of their soul that God had made and upon being deceived... they were ashamed of God's "WORK" and drawn to focus on themselves.

    Satan became the father and ruler of this world... or "federal head" of this world by getting us to cast our vote for him in Eden. (2 Co. 4:4; John 14:30)

    Flesh exaltation is the Devils seal of ownership. All doctrine fails if it hides the fact that Satan wants us to try to meet the standards of God's perfection. When the creation takes its eyes off of the Creator to focus on what they need to DO to "be like God"... the Devil wins!

    Sin entered the world because we were deceived... God's perfection became our obsession by the deceit of innocent children by the Originator of "Unbelief in our Creator's perfect design!"

    God cleared this matter up and Original Sin is eradicated! I'll address this in the next OP... as this is the first of an @Evil.Eye.<(I)>, multi part study.

    I'll drop the solution in raw scripture, but for now... it's time to focus on the problem.

    Solution (John. 16:9-11)

    I would like to thank @Jerry Shugart for inspiring me to write this OP with his fantastic OP... LINK HERE
    Quote Originally Posted by Evil.Eye.<(I)> View Post
    Recap... from previous OP Series Pieces...
    Spoiler
    The first OP in this series is Linked HERE.

    Connecting the DOTS. It serves two main purposes...


    1} Original Sin was committed by Satan
    2) It is Pride
    Noted OP affirmation) The most on target follow through on this matter was contributed by @Jerry Shugart HERE.

    Moving forward to the next DOT in this connect the DOTS discussion...


    @Danoh , @Nick M , and @dodge brought some excellent discussion to the OVER ARCHING matter of this multi OP series.

    @Danoh continually pointed out that Jesus' temptations in the wilderness were a key to this matter and further iterated James 1:13f, 15f to drive home that there are strong biblical keys to this matter.

    @dodge had a cross dialogue with Nick M and Danoh that centered around the OP and Danoh's points.

    @Nick M stole some of my thunder and accentuated some of the need for further information to support the full OP point in the first of the Series and in-fact, in doing so, is the inception of this next OP.


    There seems to be a missing understanding in the minds of people who grasp the concept of "Classical Original Sin". It is specifically noted in the lack of application of the following 2 passages in scripture that must... I Repeat... MUST... be taken into account when evaluating Original Sin, from a biblical perspective.

    I'm expressing the verses to prepare you, the reader, for the coming exposition in this OP dialogue. (1 Cor. 15:55f) and (Heb. 2:14)

    Now... How do these verses come in handy? They come in handy for the following answer to a valid point that Nick M made.

    I had said...



    To which Nick M. responded...



    In specific notation of my verbiage that "JUDGMENT" entered through one man, vs. "Classical Original Sin" doctrine with states that "Sin" was "Imputed" to all men via Adam.

    The fear of many people is observed... "as they say" that the "Gospel" is being undercut by suggesting that Adam's sin wasn't imputed through one man. The logic here is that Sin entered through one man and thus Jesus, as ONE "Man", removed "All Sin".

    This is totally understandable... but...

    Read my Lips...

    It is biblicaly inaccurate to say that "Sin" was IMPUTED through Adam, or that Jesus took on "Adam's" "SIN".

    To be biblicaly accurate... we must understand an UNHOLY Trinity. Enter Heb. 2:14f, 16 and the first OP of this SERIES...

    Heb. 2:14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. 16 For indeed He does not give aid to angels, but He does give aid to the seed of Abraham.

    Heb. 2:14-16 has been dropped and two of my points are already vindicated...

    The Devil is the guilty party of original sin and I am now revealing that Christ took the devil on with the cross. This is more than biblical! It is the reoccurring theme in scripture! Note how Hebrews 2 says that The Devil "Had" the power of "Death" and then it goes on to state that God doesn't "Give Aid to Angels". There can be no coincidence here! It is cut and dry. The old Angelic Goat is the "Originator" of "Sin".

    Now... lets "flesh" this matter out with 1 Corinthians.


    1 Corinthians 15:54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

    55 “O Death, where is your sting?
    O Hades, where is your victory?”
    56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

    Enter the "Unholy Trinity"...

    Law, Sin and Death... The Law is Good! Sin is any action that deviates from God's perfection and Death isn't a thing... it's a NAME in this particular passage. If a guy puts mail in my mail box for a living, I can call him the "Post Man". If an Angel has the "Power of Death" then I can call him "DEATH".

    What does this mean? It means that 1 Corinthians 15:54-56 is saying that The "DEVIL" used "SIN" to impute "LAW" upon mankind. What is Sin? (John 16:9) Unbelief in God. Specifically... Unbelief in God's utter Provisional Perfection and Love.

    But... How can the "DEVIL's" power be the "LAW"? Easy as pie r squared! Example... The bible is Good... but Satan uses the bible to corrupt man's understanding of God by "Lying" about what it is actually saying, in a way that makes God look like a HATEFUL agent of OPPRESSION. (John 8:44; Matthew 23:33; 12:34) The perfection of God is our ROCK FOUNDATION! But if we are tricked into believing that we have to "BE LIKE THE ROCK", we are no longer "BUILT ON THAT ROCK FOUNDATION", but attempting to "BUILD OURSELVES INTO A FOUNDATION". Let us be realistic here... there is only ONE Foundation of ALL CREATION, and it isn't us.

    Adam didn't "sin" in a way that imputed his Sin, or Propensity to "sin" onto all humanity. If a "Spiritually Alive" being is Perfect LIKE GOD, than Adam and Satan, could not have fallen, or been subject to "TEMPTATION". Adam didn't even "sin" in a way that was steeped with "unbelief". Eve, on the other hand... did "sin" in a way that was steeped with "unbelief". (1 Tim. 2:14) Eve was "Deceived". The Devil was the "Deceiver", and ADAM, clearly didn't want to "Live Without His Wife". This is why Adam is likened unto Christ... not because he is the failure and Jesus is the Righteous ONE, but because Adam couldn't "Save Eve", by taking on "Death". Only God could and DID do that!

    Is there a verse that "Brings this Home"?



    Thank you Nick! So see... Adam is the "Christ typification figure" and Eve is the "Bride of Christ figure". This is why "Judgment entered through ADAM" and was "PROPITIATED" through Jesus.

    It's a LOVE STORY!!!

    The Law was brought on upon man by Eve and Adam's response to the DEVIL. The Devil is the TEMPTER, ACCUSER, OPPRESSOR, LIAR, SELF APPOINTED JUDGE and seeker of the THRONE OF GOD.

    Do you now understand why it is so vile to reduce "Original Sin" down to Adam's "GUILT" being imputed upon all mankind? It takes the 1 John 4:8 and 1 Cor. 13 out of the matter!

    A JUST GOD DOES NOT IMPUTE SIN TO BABIES! A JUST God DOES provide consequence for ALL SIN! (2 Cor. 5:21; Luke 22:42 and 1 John 2:2)

    @Lon ... I'm sorry friend... but "classical original sin" and the idea that Adam's sin was imputed to all mankind is what actually hurts the CROSS and HE who brought it POWER. God didn't take ADAM's Sin on, on the Cross. God took the "IMPUTATION" of the LAW on, on the cross.

    Otherwise... these verses would be rendered worthless...

    Romans 4:15 because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.

    "Drink this Cup"... of what? Wrath! Wrath brought on by initial IMPUTATION of and THEN the transgression of THE LAW. Eve acted out of ignorance and Adam acted out of Love. It isn't until Cain that we see the ACTUAL TRANSGRESSION of the LAW. And this adds up, because God warns Cain... "Gen. 4:7 If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it.”

    Romans 5:13 For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

    Here... we see that "Sin" predates Law... Yet Paul says this... "Romans 7:9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died."

    So, how could Sin predate the Law and yet Paul suggests that he was ALIVE without the Law? Romans clearly states that where there is NO LAW, there is NO SIN.

    The following is a major counter thesis to Classical Original Sin Doctrine.


    Sin has a NAME...
    "DEATH/GOAT/DEVIL/ACCUSER/FALSE or DARK MORNING STAR/LIAR/DRAGON/ADVERSARY/SATAN" and he was alive before Adam and Eve were alive, and all humanity for that matter. Thus, debating Imputation of Sin upon mankind is false.

    Law was imputed and because of this... Sin (Satan) was afforded the opportunity to IMPUTE SIN (himself) upon mankind... which results in ETERNAL DEATH! (Rm. 6:23)

    Who fixed all of this for us? (Romans 5:18)

    This was complex... but I wanted to be thorough... The verses that dole out consequence in specifics to Adam and Eve will have to wait for the next OP in this series. There is no doubt that the Tree's, Adam, Eve, God, satan and specific events and response must be discussed next OP. But... I'm trying to let this OP series flow organically... so... WHO KNOWS?

    As for the clobbering of original sin to the point that it is dealt with..., I guess that will have to wait a bit, as well. We have to get the Why down, before we get to the "WHY NOT".
    Quote Originally Posted by Evil.Eye.<(I)> View Post
    A quick Recap of parts 1 to 3...
    Spoiler
    The first of the Series LINK

    1) Satan is the originator of Sin and the TRUE "Original" Sin is Pride
    2) To say any but "God" can "Be Like God" is the ultimate path of this deception.

    The Second Part of the Series LINK

    1) Satan is referred to in two ways in some scripture as Death and Sin.
    2) Heb. 2:14, Romans 7 and 1 Co. 15:55f must be taken into account to generate accurate "Biblical" Original Sin doctrine.
    3) Judgment came through the Law and was imputed through the Devil's Deceit of "Eve" (1 Tim. 2:14)
    4) Adam's response is judged from the "Flesh" in "Classical" OS doctrine, when Paul and Peter reveal a far more intimate "meaning" of everything that occurred in the "Garden".

    The Third Part of the Series LINK

    1) The Spirit is the very Spirit that binds our flesh to soul
    2) Spiritual Death is Spiritual "Disconnection or Blindness"
    3) God does not break His own commands by binding Innocence to condemnation, before inception
    4) We are all in utter need of God and ALL fall short of the very GLORY of God (Heb. 1:3)

    I will be back to generate the fourth part of this OP, but feel free to piece together the information from 1 - 3 to get a jump start on this 4th portion.
    God (Elohim) ... Trees (Life ... The knowledge of Good and Evil) ... gods (Satan and Humanity) ... The Fall (The implications of ALL scripture)

    Let's put GOD FIRST ...


    YHVH ... YHWH ... JHVH ... JHWH (The tetragrammaton) ... GOD

    Who walked among Adam and Eve? (Gen. 3:8)

    We have scripture that Reveals this...

    Exodus 40:34 Then the cloud covered the tabernacle of meeting, and the glory of the Lord filled the tabernacle. 35 And Moses was not able to enter the tabernacle of meeting, because the cloud rested above it, and the glory of the Lord filled the tabernacle. 36 Whenever the cloud was taken up from above the tabernacle, the children of Israel would go onward in all their journeys. 37 But if the cloud was not taken up, then they did not journey till the day that it was taken up. 38 For the cloud of the Lord was above the tabernacle by day, and fire was over it by night, in the sight of all the house of Israel, throughout all their journeys.

    There are over 100 scriptures to drive the point home... but I'll simply site 3 that bring this matter home.

    Hebrews 1:1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

    1 Corinthians 10 Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, 2 all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 3 all ate the same spiritual food, 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.

    Exodus 33:18-23

    18 And he said, “Please, show me Your glory.

    19 Then He said, “I will make all My goodness pass before you, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before you. I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.” 20 But He said, “You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live.” 21 And the Lord said, “Here is a place by Me, and you shall stand on the rock. 22 So it shall be, while My glory passes by, that I will put you in the cleft of the rock, and will cover you with My hand while I pass by. 23 Then I will take away My hand, and you shall see My back; but My face shall not be seen.”

    I'll add this final scripture to cinch this matter up...

    Philippians 2:9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

    Jesus is the very PRESENCE or GLORY of the Father! This is why Jesus says...

    John 14:9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

    And Again...

    John 10:30 "I and My Father are one.”

    And Again...

    John 1:18

    18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

    We know now that every Theophany (Physical Presence of God) in scripture is none other than the SON of God!

    If that's not enough to make my jaw drop... The very presence of God is now married to the very flesh of ALL of us, as (Per the Gospels) He was conceived by the "Holy Spirit", "Born of a Virgin" and seen by mankind... then per Acts chapter 1, the Son ascended in corporeal Form to Heaven!

    This never fails to give me chills of amazement!

    Thus the Son Walked with Adam and Eve in the Garden.

    And now... note that each individual discussion topic will be divided by posting to allow this OP to be digested in portions.


    TREES... Link to the TREES portion of this OP

    gods... Link to the gods portion of this OP

    The Fall ... This will be edited in and linked within the next 24 hours. I will add the words OP series Part 4 Complete to the Editing portion of the OP when the OP is complete.

    Fair Disclosure...



    I will come clean... I've decided to dedicate a part of this OP series to the Fall. You have read into my very motive of wording. And indeed.. Noone can deny that the result of the events in the garden, including "Adam's" disobedience were "Evil". OP part 5 will be entitled "The Fall" and explore passages in scripture that enunciate the very "motives" of Adam and Eve.

    Good "Eye" and note that you beat me to the question that leads into the next OP part. I will add to the OP to show that this matter has been discussed here to prepare for part 5.
    Quote Originally Posted by Evil.Eye.<(I)> View Post
    The following LINKED HERE 4th Part OP in this series fills in the gaps of discussion and links to all previous portions of this series.


    Buckle Up… This one won’t be short. I would apologize… but the scripturally lazy reap what they “sew”, and this is too important a topic to weaken by trying to hammer out a rapid OP on. This is the “heart” of the “Biblical” doctrine of “Original Sin”.

    Things to keep in mind as you read this


    Nakedness is a “lacking”.
    Adam and Eve were ONE FLESH.
    God looks to the "Heart", not the "Flesh".

    Scriptural List of Raw scriptures used to back up this OP’s Assertion.
    Spoiler
    Core Scriptures

    (The Deceiver) Revelation 12:9; For all the “Nay Sayers” that want to take the devil out of the doctrine… note that you are denying “SCRIPTURE” that spans from Genesis to Revelation… and… that’s not a good idea!
    Spoiler
    John 12:31; Luke 10:18; 2 Cor. 4:4; John 8:44; Rev. 20:10; Rev. 20:2-3; Rev. 12:3; 1 John 5:19; 1 Pet. 5:8; 2 Thes. 2:9f, 11; 2 Co. 11:3; Gen. 3:1; Rm. 16:20; John 16:11; John 14:30; Luke 13:16; Mt. 25:41; Mt. 4:10; Is. 14:12; Rv. 19:20; Rv. 18:23; Rv. 18:2; Rv. 16:14; Rv. 12:7; Rv. 9:20; Rv. 2:24; Jd. 1:9; 1 John 3:8-10; Heb. 2:14; 2 Tim. 3:13; 1 Tim. 3:6-7; 1 Tim. 2:14; 2 Thes. 2:3; Eph. 4:14; 2 Cor. 12:7; 2 Cor. 11:14; 2 Co. 2:11; Rm. 16:18; Acts 26:18; Acts 5:3; Luke 22:31; Luke 22:3; Luke 8:12; Mt. 24:24; Mt. 13:39; Mt. 4:8; Mt. 4:5; Mt. 4:1; Zech. 3:1F; Ezek. 28:16; Is. 27:1; Ps. 109:5; Job 2:1-2; Job 1:6f, 8f, 10f, 12; 1 Chr. 21:1; Gen. 3:13; Gen. 3:4f;


    (The Deceived) 1 Tim. 2:14; Gen. 3:6; Gen. 3:13; 2 Cor. 11:3; 1 Thes. 3:5; Rev. 12:15

    (The Heart Broken Groom of Self-Sacrifice) Rm. 8:2; Rm. 5:14; John 6:57; John 5:21; Gen. 2:7; Gen. 2:23; Gen. 2:24; Eph. 5:30; Eph. 5:25; Mt. 19:3f, 5f, 7f, 9; Eph. 5:28f, 30f; 1 Co. 6:16f; 1 Co. 7:10f; 1 Pt. 3:1f, 3f, 5f, 7; 1 Co. 7:2f, 4; Rm. 7:2; Pr. 31:10; Pr. 12:4; 1 Tim. 5:14; Acts 11:23; Joshua 23:8; Dt. 4:4; Lev. 22:12f; Gn. 31:14f, Gn. 24:58f;

    (Love Trumps ALL) John 15:13; 1 John 2:7; 3:11; Lev. 19:18; 2 John 1:5f; Mk. 12:29f, 31f, 33f, 35f; Gal. 5:13f; Rm. 13:8f, 10; Mt. 22:37f, 39f; 1 John 3:23; 1 John 2:24; James 2:8f, 10f, 12; Mt. 5:43; Dt. 6:5; Lev. 19:34
    Order of Discussion…


    1) The actual verbiage of the Account in Spoiler and Markup format
    2) The Dragon
    3) Eve
    4) Eve is a typification of all Humanity, but especially “Israel”… Handing the “Groom” over to “Death”.
    5) Adam is a typification of JESUS not SATAN!
    6) It’s a Love story to those that believe GOD is Love and Look to the Heart, while resisting the Satanic urge to “Judge the Flesh” as Satan teaches!
    7) Who told you that you were “Lacking” … (Naked)

    The actual verbiage of the Account in Spoiler and Markup format
    Spoiler
    Genesis 3:1
    1A.Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said to the woman, “Has God indeed said, 1B.‘You shall not eat of every tree of the garden’?”

    1A. Note who is introduced first in this chapter? Who is the origin of all sin?

    1B. No you lying Serpent! You are no liberator! God is the AUTHOR of HUMAN Free Will! (Gen. 2:16)

    2 And the woman said to the serpent, “2A.We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden; 3 but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat it, 3A.nor shall you touch it, lest 3B.you die.’”

    2A. Way to go Eve! You have continued to believe that God is the Author of Free Will and the Lover of your soul!

    3A. Damnit Eve! Seriously! He never said that! (2 Co. 11:3; 2 Pt. 3:17) He said this! (Gen. 2:17)

    3B. Eve! He said “Surely Die”! The dragon is moving rapidly to ensnare your childlike faith through vein tales of lies and false promises!

    4 Then the serpent said to the woman, 4A.“You will not surely die. 5 For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and 4B.you will be like God, knowing good and evil.

    4A. Way to go Dragon! (Sarcasm) You just officially twisted God’s wording. Just wait till Daddy rectifies things!

    4B. The Dragon sinks his rotten teeth into Eve with his self-imbibed lie! (Is. 14:14; Is. 46:5)
    6 6A. So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that 6B. it was pleasant to the eyes, and 6C. a tree desirable to make one wise, 6D.she took of its fruit and ate. 6E.She also gave to her husband with her, 6F. and he ate.

    6A. Now the appeal of the Lie is “Visible” and Eve begins to believe she is lacking something… as if God would ever leave us “Lacking”.

    6B. Lust of the Eyes

    6C. Lust of the Flesh. But the actual fruit was fruit that was perfect by the Loving Creators WORK and Knowledge. After all... God had the Knowledge of Good and Evil, and this can only mean one thing... that we were only lacking the Knowledge of GOD. Why is this important? Because only God can "Handle" such "Knowledge" and yet Judge and Choose right from wrong perfectly and righteously. (Col. 1:16)

    6D. And now the deal is sealed and deception enters the world through Eve!

    6E. (John 19:11) … “We”... (But especially His Bride… “National Israel”) handed Him over to die, but the one who “Deceived” has the deep SIN accounted to him… The Dragon. Eve had no “Authority” over Adam! Only God had authority over Adam and God and Adam allowed Eve to “Choose”.

    6F. (Mt. 26:39)

    7 7A. Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and 7B.they knew that they were naked; and 7C.they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves coverings.

    7A. Spiritually Dead (Blind)

    7B. They felt “Lacking” when knowing the PERFECTION of God! They felt Shame for what God had made them. They questioned the Creator’s Workmanship and began to be Ashamed of the very Creator’s WORK.

    7C. They began to try to make themselves right in the eyes of GOD with foolish effort and cover their shame with foolish attempts at correcting their error. God clearly respected their bodies as His perfect work and was saddened that Adam and Eve now felt SHAME and “Lacking”.

    8 And they heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden.

    God walked among Adam and Eve and by deception… “Eve” and “Adam” were now hiding from the One that “Loved them as they were” (Rm. 5:8), though “Eve” had believed the deception of one that destroys (Rv. 9:11) and as God made Adam of LOVE… Adam would rather be “Destroyed” than lose the “Bone of his Bone and Flesh of his Flesh”! (Eph. 5:25)

    9 Then the LORD God called to Adam and said to him, “Where are you?”

    The implications of this one question, asked by God, are EARTH Shattering to any weary traveler. He is ALWAYS seeking out that ONE "Lost Sheep"!

    10 So he said, “10A. I heard Your voice in the garden, and 10B. I was afraid because I was naked; and 10C. I hid myself.”

    10A. Adam could still “hear” the WORD.

    10B. Adam was fearful of God and felt “lacking” in HIS presence.

    10C. Adam hid from the ONE that Loved him and his cherished bride.

    11 And He said, “11A. Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which 11B. I commanded you that you should not eat?”[/indent]

    11A. Who “lied” to you and told you that you were “lacking”?
    Don’t Believe Me? Then how about this?
    Gen. 2:25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.
    That’s right! They were both NAKED and NOT or UNASHAMED!

    11B. Now that Adam and Eve knew Good and Evil… God addresses them with the word “Commanded”. Order of occurrence and detail… details… details… details…

    12 Then the man said, “The woman whom You gave to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I ate.”

    Gen. 2:23, 24

    13 And the LORD God said to the woman, “What is this you have done?”
    The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.”

    1 Tim. 2:14 … no lying from eve… and she admitted to “eating” before God.

    14 So the LORD God said to the serpent:
    Because you have done this,
    You are cursed more than all cattle,
    And more than every beast of the field;
    On your belly you shall go,
    And you shall eat dust
    All the days of your life.
    15 And I will put enmity
    Between you and the woman,
    And between your seed and her Seed;
    He shall bruise your head,
    And you shall bruise His heel.”

    God clearly assigns the Blame by saying “Because you have DONE THIS” to Satan!

    16 To the woman He said:
    “I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception;
    In pain you shall bring forth children;
    Your desire shall be for your husband,
    And he shall rule over you.”

    “With the wisdom of GOD, comes much SORROW”. Jesus is the Child that will be pined for and Jesus is the Husband that is GOOD that HUMANITY ached for as of that very moment! And indeed… He will Rule over us! Praise Jesus that HE will RULE OVER Us!

    17 Then to Adam He said, “Because you have heeded the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree of which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat of it’:

    Heeding the voice of EVE is prophetic of God heeding our voices in need for HIS REDEMPTION! Adam is now given the solution to his new problem!

    “Cursed is the ground for your sake;
    In toil you shall eat of it
    All the days of your life.

    The Law is now in full effect to be used by the Serpent, but it is to guide mankind back to God when they are led astray! Note that God says… “For you SAKE”? It’s not a CURSE! It’s the way God paved the way for THE WAY!

    18 Both thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you,
    And you shall eat the herb of the field.
    19 In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread
    Till you return to the ground,
    For out of it you were taken;

    Sewn into corruption? Even in Eden… the corrupter came and spoiled God’s initial Work. But the “sweat of Adam’s face” will lead all mankind to the “Living Bread!”

    For dust you are,
    And to dust you shall return.”

    And… DEATH eats Dust! (Heb. 2:14) … it isn’t until Heb. 11:39f that Death no longer separates mankind from God after “Death” of the “Dust”.

    20 And Adam called his wife’s name Eve, because she was the mother of all living.

    God is Creator and Eve is symbolic of “ALL CREATION”. And just to throw a massive MONKEY WRENCH into the idea that we are “Spiritually Dead” at birth… Why is Eve the MOTHER of the Living, though she “Spiritually Died” in Eden? Evil.Grin.<(I)> It’s amazing how much one can learn if Jesus is the center of study and scripture is believed as “God Breathed”, just like us… (Job 33:4)

    21 Also for Adam and his wife the LORD God made tunics of skin, and clothed them.

    I know the heated debate on this, as I have read it… so I won’t share my perspective on “how” the skin was acquired… but I can say that this is a prophecy that points to passages like this… (Rom. 13:14; Gal. 3:27)

    22 Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”— 23 therefore the LORD God sent him out of the garden of Eden to till the ground from which he was taken. 24 So He drove out the man; and He placed cherubim at the east of the garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life.

    I do believe that this is where we have been in the last 4 OP’s of this OP series!
    The Dragon


    Rv. 12:9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

    Who did God say the originator of "Sin" is?

    John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. 8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; 11 of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.

    Who did God assign the "Blame" of original sin too?

    Gen. 3:14 So the Lord God said to the serpent:

    “Because you have done this,

    Who did GOD JUDGE on the CROSS?

    Hebrews 2:14

    14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,

    Are you not that certain yet? Do you really "Blame" Adam for the Sin that is "In the WORLD"?

    Do we now JUDGE God's workmanship? Do you really want to answer one of lifes deepest questions without compassion, Mercy, understanding and with only a "handful" of verses?

    Incase you are resistant to understanding that the DRAGON is the "Originator" of Sin... and DECEPTION... please go back to the top and open the spoiler for supporting verses about the Deceiver.

    Eve


    1 Timothy 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.

    This is ALL of us... not just Eve! The Deciever has recruits now that assist him in the corruption of the soul and no amount of SHELTER can stave off his initial attack, because we aren't Jesus (Heb. 4:15).

    Gen. 3:13 And the Lord God said to the woman, “What is this you have done?”
    The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.”

    Not buying it? Paul say about this?

    2 Corinthians 12:9 And He said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

    What? Did Paul just explain that we are all "Weak" like Eve? He sure did! And what came of weakness? Our Heavenly Bone of our Bone and Flesh of our Flesh was Exalted in Power, by laying His life down for ALL of Us!

    What does Peter say?

    1 Peter 3:7 Husbands, likewise, dwell with them with understanding, giving honor to the wife, as to the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life, that your prayers may not be hindered.

    There it is again! The Bride is likened unto ALL HUMANITY and The Husband is Likened unto Adam and Christ. It's almost like the entire NEW TESTAMENT does this! (This is MILK and the Dispensational MEAT of the matter can be revealed another time.)

    2 Cor. 11:3 But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

    There it is again... Eve is noted as being deceived by the serpent, but now CHRIST is likened unto ADAM. Imagine that!

    1 Thes. 3:5 For this reason, when I could no longer endure it, I sent to know your faith, lest by some means the tempter had tempted you, and our labor might be in vain.

    What's this? Now Eve is being likened unto "ALL BELIEVERS"? Temptation is being attributed to the Tempter AGAIN! Why is ALL scripture agreeing with me? Could it be because I'm agreeing with ALL scripture... on this specific point?

    Rev. 12:15 So the serpent spewed water out of his mouth like a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away by the flood.

    Now look! Eve... the "Woman" is likened unto ISRAEL and the SERPENT is trying to sweep her away into ETERNAL DEATH! (Jude 1:9 and Daniel 10:13) ... Why is the Dragon in so much scripture as the ORIGINATOR OF SIN? This is in direct conflict with "Classical original sin"... Someone needs to "Correct the Bible"! (Sarcasm)

    Adam is a typification of JESUS not SATAN!


    1 Co. 15:45 Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

    Here is the connection between Adam and Christ. Now lets evaluate what really happened with a verse I overquote!

    Hebrews 2:14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,

    Why does this verse LIKEN PARTAKING of "Flesh and Blood" unto "Eating" something and then Christ goes forward and "Eats" the same thing? Seriously? I'm all ears? Why is Christ's act of Heb. 2:14 likened unto PARTAKING of the Fruit that was Forbidden, like ADAM did?

    Maybe Paul has some help here?

    Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.

    Same Tree being used, but when GOD uses it... LIFE is Given. When the creation uses it... (Specifically Satan)... Death is wrought forth! Life giving SPIRIT? vs. Heb. 2:14... which reveals who brings Sin and Death in that ties to (1 Co. 15:55f)

    So... Why is Satan's origin of sin likened unto Adam? Why is Adam blamed by much of the "Classical Church Doctrine"?

    SCRIPTURAL IGNORANCE!!!

    It's about to get r-e-a-l up in h-e-r-e! BONE OF MY BONE!!!

    Let's go forward now!

    It’s a Love story to those that believe GOD is Love and Look to the Heart, while resisting the Satanic urge to “Judge the Flesh” as Satan teaches!

    Sorry Augustine Fans... My foot is now on the head of the "Classical Doctrine" and I'm reaching for my SWORD!


    Romans 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

    Sure... Adam made a snap judgment... but... was it "Evil"? Let's look at how ADAM was a genuine TYPIFICATION of Jesus!

    Adam could have said... EVE... YOU MORON... "Edith... You're a real PIP... you knows that?" and then thrown the fruit on the ground and walked off.

    But... Who does that? ... (Mt. 26:15)... Was Adam a "JUDAS"?

    Ephesians 5:25

    Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her,

    1 Peter 3:7

    Likewise, husbands, live with your wives in an understanding way, showing honor to the woman as the weaker vessel, since they are heirs with you of the grace of life, so that your prayers may not be hindered.

    Colossians 3:19

    Husbands, love your wives, and do not be harsh with them.

    Ephesians 5:28

    In the same way husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself.

    Ephesians 5:2

    And walk in love, as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.

    Genesis 2:24

    Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.

    Galatians 1:4

    who gave himself for our sins to deliver us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father,

    Ephesians 5:33

    However, let each one of you love his wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband.

    Revelation 1:5

    and from Jesus Christ the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of kings on earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood

    Galatians 2:20

    I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

    Matthew 20:28

    even as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”

    Revelation 5:9

    And they sang a new song, saying, “Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation,

    1 Timothy 2:6

    who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

    Proverbs 5:18-19

    Let your fountain be blessed, and rejoice in the wife of your youth, a lovely deer, a graceful doe. Let her breasts fill you at all times with delight; be intoxicated always in her love.

    2 Samuel 12:3

    but the poor man had nothing but one little ewe lamb, which he had bought. And he brought it up, and it grew up with him and with his children. It used to eat of his morsel and drink from his cup and lie in his arms, and it was like a daughter to him.

    Genesis 24:67

    Then Isaac brought her into the tent of Sarah his mother and took Rebekah, and she became his wife, and he loved her. So Isaac was comforted after his mother's death.

    How about the HEAVY HITTERS THAT Bring this HOME!

    Ephesians 5:30

    30 For we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones.


    Genesis 2:23 And Adam said:

    “This is now bone of my bones
    And flesh of my flesh;

    She shall be called Woman,
    Because she was taken out of Man.”
    24 Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.

    25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.


    I was going to write more on this... but... I can feel it!


    It's a LOVE STORY! And I'm armed to the teeth with scripture to defend the Love of God that was seen in ADAM who bore the very IMAGE of GOD as we DO!

    [CENTER]John 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
    Quote Originally Posted by Evil.Eye.<(I)> View Post
    Original Sin has been abolished? Pride and Unbelief are subdued?

    Yes! Though many will reject Him to His Face... the Loving Groom has not rejected them. The Love story ripples outward from a people of oppression that further enunciate the Garden account.

    East of Eden... this is the direction we were cast from. Our journey is concluded by Him who rises in the East.

    The Dragon deceived Eve... and Eve shared death with her Love. Adam partook of Death and suffered the dragon's sting. A mere mortal of flesh and blood, he was powerless to the one who had the power of death.

    The Dragon sought the Bride of God... and the Bride of God partook of his lies. The mourning Groom didn't allow the Dragon to prevail. He too, partook of Death's Sting... and in doing so... the very power of Satan was lifted up... but three days later... Satan was conquered by the King of Kings, as Jesus stripped the very "key" to the fate of mankind from the Dragon.

    In the dragon's greatest glory... he was cast from heaven! His pride went before his fall and his kingdom of dust began to slip between his fingers.

    Love truly conquers ALL and Loves rule is the surest thing to be promised!

    He Loves the whore, embraces the murderer, lays His well being down for His enemies, honors the dishonorable and counts the unrighteous Priceless beyond compare.

    He is the Lover of our Soul and All knees will bow, every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the very GLORY of the Father. (Php. 2:9f; Heb. 1:3)

    What cost Him everything... is free to us. It must simply be accepted as it is freely given.

    Now... the Dragon is defeated and only armed with the weapon of deception. In this race we run.. all we must do is hang on to the faithful promise of the Selfless Groom that never, ever, fails the failing. He is faithful to unfaithful we.

    He is that which His is and the I Am will always be our perfect Love that casts out ALL of our fears.

    Link to the OP series that preceded this OP

    Long live the King and forever hail His honorable Name! Jesus is, was and forever will be the solution. He, and He alone, is worthy of all surrender and praise!
    Open (Beyond Time ...1 Ki. 8:27) Relational to us within Time (John 1:1)
    Dispensational (2 Ti. 2:15)
    It's All About Jesus and He's the theology (John 5:39f)
    Biblical (2 Ti. 3:16)
    Zionist (Rm. 11:25-36)
    There is only one Commentary!
    (1 John 2:27; Rm. 8:9; Php. 1:19; Mt. 23:8)

    Salvation is Free (Eph. 2:8f) !!! It depends on his strength, not mine!!! (2 Co. 12:9)

    Stupid things Tet says...

    Quote Originally Posted by tetelestai View Post
    The old heavens and old earth was the law and the Old Covenant.

    The new heavens and new earth is the New Covenant.

  2. #2
    TOL Subscriber Lon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    8,153
    Thanks
    1,638
    Thanked 3,254 Times in 1,970 Posts

    Mentioned
    69 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    1628976
    Lot of single scriptures there. The ones I'm concerned with discussing:

    Psalm 51:5 Look! I was guilty of sin from birth, a sinner the moment my mother conceived me. NET
    Our goal: 2 Corinthians 10:5
    Genesis 8:21 The intent of all men's hearts is evil, from his youth.
    Ephesians 2:3b Like the rest, we were by nature children of wrath.
    Psalm 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb; These who speak lies go astray from birth.
    Luke 7:47 John 15:5 Ephesians 2:12 Romans 3:11;5:18
    John 3:3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
    John 3:5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
    Job 14:4;15:14-16
    1 Corinthians 15:22 - We clearly inherited death from Adam
    Romans 3:10,11 - No one righteous. No exception
    Psalm 58:3 - It is saying at least the wicked are 'born this way'
    Proverbs 22:15 discipline is advocated at an early age because of their condition
    Genesis 8:21 Man's heart is evil from childhood
    Psalm 14:2–3 No child seeks God
    Psalm 51:1-5

    Probably in that order. I'll try to tackle each of yours, but likely in small posts. Perhaps we can use this thread to discuss all of them before introducing any others? At least, that will be my endeavor. In Him -Lon
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

  3. The Following User Says Thank You to Lon For Your Post:

    dodge (August 15th, 2017)

  4. #3
    "That is why you Fail" Evil.Eye.<(I)>'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2016
    Location
    A distant planet called earth.
    Posts
    4,904
    Thanks
    6,504
    Thanked 1,753 Times in 1,354 Posts

    Blog Entries
    9
    Mentioned
    12 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    358075

    "Incoming" ... :)

    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    Lot of single scriptures there. The ones I'm concerned with discussing:

    Psalm 51:5 Look! I was guilty of sin from birth, a sinner the moment my mother conceived me. NET.... and other scriptures... you posted... but I, EE, truncated to focus on your starting point.
    You kind of skipped the initial OP point that prefaced the multi quote... but... you're an incredible sport... so... Let's start with Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.

    This states in many translations that we were conceived "within" iniquity... as in... brought forth into a sinful world... and because Satan was present in Eden... we can say the same for Adam and Eve... but... let's address your proposed Theorem which implies... mankind is wrought forth a "sinner" upon embryonic conception of the fetus and take this to the Job extreme.

    Job 15:14-16

    What is man, that he can be pure? Or he who is born of a woman, that he can be righteous? Behold, God puts no trust in his holy ones, and the heavens are not pure in his sight; how much less one who is abominable and corrupt, a man who drinks injustice like water.

    Now, lets grab context... you are insinuating that everything born of a woman is "sinful" and choosing to proof text with David's words as 100% "classical original sin literal"... thus removing any hyperbole from the point and blanketing all born of women with sin...

    And on this note... we can now stack this one...

    Job 14:4 Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? There is not one

    Now... we have bolstered your Augustine claim with Job and ascertained that nothing clean can come out of of a woman's womb... which dovetails into Augustine OS or AOS.

    We will trump this up further with this...

    John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit...

    And thusly... we now prepare to evaluate your theological implications...

    Jesus Christ... Conceived of the Spirit and descended from the Heavens that the book of Job has declared "impure"... and if we want to take your "chosen" translation of Psalm 51 and make it literal... and read devoid of hyperbole... we can go ahead and do that with Job, as well.

    Though Jesus Christ was Born of the Spirit, He was indeed Born of a woman and partook of our flesh...

    Mathew 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ took place in this way. When his mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child from the Holy Spirit.

    So... we now confirm that Jesus is bound to humanity through Mary. Did He bypass "our flesh" and "temptation"?

    Hebrews 2:14 Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil.

    Heb. 2:14 says He didn't bypass our flesh and thus... He had to partake of it to defeat the devil. This means that if any theology implies that Jesus Christ... AKA God incarnate... didn't partake in "our flesh"... His Death, Burial and Resurrection would have been rendered INEFFECTIVE! No Ruler of this World defeat... equals NO atonement.

    Let's check the temptation aspect...

    Hebrews 4:15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin.

    Note... it says tempted as we are... Is it tempted as we are if that elusive Augustine Genetic implication of Sinful DNA or Injected propensity to SIN is removed?

    The answer is NO.

    So are you now willing to challenge the Sincerity of the Messiah and His legitimate dominion over our flesh, by saying that He did not partake of "Our Flesh and blood" and that "He wasn't Tempted in every way we are?" Are you willing to maintain that ALL born of a woman are "Sinners upon conception?"

    You prepped these gallows... will you hang Him on them and blame Sin on His will and design? Will you hold to the Creeds of Reform, Doctrines of the Mother Church and the Canons of Dort? Or, will you see the already present danger when looking into core scripture that deals with the Very Power of Jesus via, God the Son's work at the Place of the Skull and simultaneously tampering with scriptural narrative via Augustine writings?

    Before you try to emphasize "Born of the Spirit" to support the Augustine, genetic hoodoo...

    Remember... He isn't just God the Son and the Son of God... He became the "Son of Man".
    Last edited by Evil.Eye.<(I)>; August 9th, 2017 at 01:59 PM.
    Open (Beyond Time ...1 Ki. 8:27) Relational to us within Time (John 1:1)
    Dispensational (2 Ti. 2:15)
    It's All About Jesus and He's the theology (John 5:39f)
    Biblical (2 Ti. 3:16)
    Zionist (Rm. 11:25-36)
    There is only one Commentary!
    (1 John 2:27; Rm. 8:9; Php. 1:19; Mt. 23:8)

    Salvation is Free (Eph. 2:8f) !!! It depends on his strength, not mine!!! (2 Co. 12:9)

    Stupid things Tet says...

    Quote Originally Posted by tetelestai View Post
    The old heavens and old earth was the law and the Old Covenant.

    The new heavens and new earth is the New Covenant.

  5. #4
    TOL Subscriber Lon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    8,153
    Thanks
    1,638
    Thanked 3,254 Times in 1,970 Posts

    Mentioned
    69 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    1628976
    Quote Originally Posted by Evil.Eye.<(I)> View Post

    The answer is NO.

    So are you now willing to challenge the Sincerity of the Messiah and His legitimate dominion over our flesh, by saying that He did not partake of "Our Flesh and blood" and that "He wasn't Tempted in every way we are?" Are you willing to maintain that ALL born of a woman are "Sinners upon conception?"

    You prepped these gallows... will you hang Him on them and blame Sin on His will and design? Will you hold to the Creeds of Reform, Doctrines of the Mother Church and the Canons of Dort? Or, will you see the already present danger when looking into core scripture that deals with the Very Power of Jesus via, God the Son's work at the Place of the Skull and simultaneously tampering with scriptural narrative via Augustine writings?

    Before you try to emphasize "Born of the Spirit" to support the Augustine, genetic hoodoo...

    Remember... He isn't just God the Son and the Son of God... He became the "Son of Man".
    Hebrews 4:15 He is able to empathize with our infirmities as God. Catholics embrace Mary as sinless because of this yet, inconsistently, eschew semi-pelagianism. The doctrine of a sinless Mary, however, is semi-pelagian. They know Semipelagianism is heterodox at the best, heresy at the worst and so they endeavor to eschew it. You are close to the Catholic position. Oddly, the United Methodist Church is too and they have become Semipelagian as well.
    From the link: Semi-Pelagianism ....denied important points of the faith. Its basic claims were:
    (1) the beginning of faith (though not faith itself or its increase) could be accomplished by the human will alone, unaided by grace;
    Gets into monergism/synergism discussion as well, but Catholics necessarily have to agree with Calvinism to remain orthodox and biblical.

    (2) in a loose sense, the sanctifying grace man receives from God can be merited by natural human effort, unaided by actual grace;
    They agree with Calvinism and grace salvation, inconsistently because they are caught in works-salvation issues.
    (3) once a man has been justified, he does not need additional grace from God in order to persevere until the end of life.
    While penance and confession are designed to prevail upon grace, those are tokens toward grace rather than reliance, such is the strained dichotomy of walking worthy and a less than secured salvation of hope rather than standing.

    To me, strong elements of semipelagian theology yet sticks from those years of wrestling and re-wrestling with Pelagianism. Catholic doctrines leave the RC vulnerable to this day, to semipelagian sentiment. More importantly, the Open Theology movement with Boyd and Sanders courting Mormons in dialogue, the Open View too, has a natural theological weakness for falling back into Pelagian and Semi-Pelagian heresy and sinless birth is 1 and 2 (full Pelagian) and 3 (thus semi-pelagian and is against the life,death, and work of the Lord Jesus Christ (which is why both Semi-pelagianism and Pelagianism are heresies).

    Summation: 1) The Lord Jesus Christ is unique (different) than man. He is fully man, but we must be careful with our doctrines to think we are exactly like Him or He us. He is God's Only Begotten. As such, we should be careful about building our doctrines as if all things between He in us apply across board. 2) The Mormons make this mistake: Lorenzo Snow said "as we are, god once was. As God is, we may become." It is full Pelagian and worse. 3) Catholics, unable to distance from Pelagianism by their own theology of man born at least semi-good, believe in a form of Semipelagianism against their protestation YET know, per fact, that it is heresy (against the bible).

    Conclusion: It is no easy task trying to apply whatever condition our very unique Lord Jesus Christ went through at incarnation, to us. We are not Him. God is neither a man nor thinks like one. Thus, we know, all of us, that it is dangerous to try to apply our sin condition with whatever incarnation issues transpired and it is always best to discuss Him separately and with His own thread. We should not try and compare to build doctrine what isn't implicitly clear in scripture. Whatever scripture says is 'the same' we take for granted. After that, we need to pay attention to what scripture also says is different. Imho, you are equating where He is different. -Lon
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

  6. #5
    "That is why you Fail" Evil.Eye.<(I)>'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2016
    Location
    A distant planet called earth.
    Posts
    4,904
    Thanks
    6,504
    Thanked 1,753 Times in 1,354 Posts

    Blog Entries
    9
    Mentioned
    12 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    358075
    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    Hebrews 4:15 He is able to empathize with our infirmities as God. Catholics embrace Mary as sinless because of this yet, inconsistently, eschew semi-pelagianism. The doctrine of a sinless Mary, however, is semi-pelagian. They know Semipelagianism is heterodox at the best, heresy at the worst and so they endeavor to eschew it. You are close to the Catholic position. Oddly, the United Methodist Church is too and they have become Semipelagian as well.
    From the link: Semi-Pelagianism ....denied important points of the faith. Its basic claims were:

    Gets into monergism/synergism discussion as well, but Catholics necessarily have to agree with Calvinism to remain orthodox and biblical.


    They agree with Calvinism and grace salvation, inconsistently because they are caught in works-salvation issues.

    While penance and confession are designed to prevail upon grace, those are tokens toward grace rather than reliance, such is the strained dichotomy of walking worthy and a less than secured salvation of hope rather than standing.

    To me, strong elements of semipelagian theology yet sticks from those years of wrestling and re-wrestling with Pelagianism. Catholic doctrines leave the RC vulnerable to this day, to semipelagian sentiment. More importantly, the Open Theology movement with Boyd and Sanders courting Mormons in dialogue, the Open View too, has a natural theological weakness for falling back into Pelagian and Semi-Pelagian heresy and sinless birth is 1 and 2 (full Pelagian) and 3 (thus semi-pelagian and is against the life,death, and work of the Lord Jesus Christ (which is why both Semi-pelagianism and Pelagianism are heresies).

    Summation: 1) The Lord Jesus Christ is unique (different) than man. He is fully man, but we must be careful with our doctrines to think we are exactly like Him or He us. He is God's Only Begotten. As such, we should be careful about building our doctrines as if all things between He in us apply across board. 2) The Mormons make this mistake: Lorenzo Snow said "as we are, god once was. As God is, we may become." It is full Pelagian and worse. 3) Catholics, unable to distance from Pelagianism by their own theology of man born at least semi-good, believe in a form of Semipelagianism against their protestation YET know, per fact, that it is heresy (against the bible).

    Conclusion: It is no easy task trying to apply whatever condition our very unique Lord Jesus Christ went through at incarnation, to us. We are not Him. God is neither a man nor thinks like one. Thus, we know, all of us, that it is dangerous to try to apply our sin condition with whatever incarnation issues transpired and it is always best to discuss Him separately and with His own thread. We should not try and compare to build doctrine what isn't implicitly clear in scripture. Whatever scripture says is 'the same' we take for granted. After that, we need to pay attention to what scripture also says is different. Imho, you are equating where He is different. -Lon
    You are still skipping my actual dialogue and inserting your own!

    It is enormously important to note that you didn't adress a single thing I wrote and generateted your own quotes that are not mine... to avoid the actual points I brought forth.

    Every quoted word that you placed as a quote... which I DID not generate... is a false argument that sidesteps the issues I addressed.

    You can't bring Pel. into this or you are going to get "scolded"!

    Did seminary suck your brain out? I see independent thought as impossible for you here!?! Please refrain from bringing rehearsed response to "sinnless doctrine" here... as we are a "BYOS"... people. (Bring Your Own Sin) Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

    You aren't addressing my points but, instead, your rehearsed defenses which are completely inapplicable here!

    I would appreciate a disclaimer on your quotes that make it clear that they are not my points or words of discussion!?!

    Please address my ACTUAL WORDS... Instead of your rehearsed ... inapplicable ... anti Pel. defense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    Lot of single scriptures there. The ones I'm concerned with discussing:

    Psalm 51:5 Look! I was guilty of sin from birth, a sinner the moment my mother conceived me. NET.... and other scriptures... you posted... but I, EE, truncated to focus on your starting point.
    You kind of skipped the initial OP point that prefaced the multi quote... but... you're an incredible sport... so... Let's start with Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.

    This states in many translations that we were conceived "within" iniquity... as in... brought forth into a sinful world... and because Satan was present in Eden... we can say the same for Adam and Eve... but... let's address your proposed Theorem which implies... mankind is wrought forth a "sinner" upon embryonic conception of the fetus and take this to the Job extreme.

    Job 15:14-16

    What is man, that he can be pure? Or he who is born of a woman, that he can be righteous? Behold, God puts no trust in his holy ones, and the heavens are not pure in his sight; how much less one who is abominable and corrupt, a man who drinks injustice like water.

    Now, lets grab context... you are insinuating that everything born of a woman is "sinful" and choosing to proof text with David's words as 100% "classical original sin literal"... thus removing any hyperbole from the point and blanketing all born of women with sin...

    And on this note... we can now stack this one...

    Job 14:4 Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? There is not one

    Now... we have bolstered your Augustine claim with Job and ascertained that nothing clean can come out of of a woman's womb... which dovetails into Augustine OS or AOS.

    We will trump this up further with this...

    John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit...

    And thusly... we now prepare to evaluate your theological implications...

    Jesus Christ... Conceived of the Spirit and descended from the Heavens that the book of Job has declared "impure"... and if we want to take your "chosen" translation of Psalm 51 and make it literal... and read devoid of hyperbole... we can go ahead and do that with Job, as well.

    Though Jesus Christ was Born of the Spirit, He was indeed Born of a woman and partook of our flesh...

    Mathew 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ took place in this way. When his mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child from the Holy Spirit.

    So... we now confirm that Jesus is bound to humanity through Mary. Did He bypass "our flesh" and "temptation"?

    Hebrews 2:14 Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil.

    Heb. 2:14 says He didn't bypass our flesh and thus... He had to partake of it to defeat the devil. This means that if any theology implies that Jesus Christ... AKA God incarnate... didn't partake in "our flesh"... His Death, Burial and Resurrection would have been rendered INEFFECTIVE! No Ruler of this World defeat... equals NO atonement.

    Let's check the temptation aspect...

    Hebrews 4:15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin.

    Note... it says tempted as we are... Is it tempted as we are if that elusive Augustine Genetic implication of Sinful DNA or Injected propensity to SIN is removed?

    The answer is NO.

    So are you now willing to challenge the Sincerity of the Messiah and His legitimate dominion over our flesh, by saying that He did not partake of "Our Flesh and blood" and that "He wasn't Tempted in every way we are?" Are you willing to maintain that ALL born of a woman are "Sinners upon conception?"

    You prepped these gallows... will you hang Him on them and blame Sin on His will and design? Will you hold to the Creeds of Reform, Doctrines of the Mother Church and the Canons of Dort? Or, will you see the already present danger when looking into core scripture that deals with the Very Power of Jesus via, God the Son's work at the Place of the Skull and simultaneously tampering with scriptural narrative via Augustine writings?

    Before you try to emphasize "Born of the Spirit" to support the Augustine, genetic hoodoo...

    Remember... He isn't just God the Son and the Son of God... He became the "Son of Man".

    .....

    I mean Lon... what's different from your proposed understanding and Lady Gaga?
    Spoiler
    ***Warning..Scantily Clad... Anorexic people dancing***
    Last edited by Evil.Eye.<(I)>; August 9th, 2017 at 02:03 PM.
    Open (Beyond Time ...1 Ki. 8:27) Relational to us within Time (John 1:1)
    Dispensational (2 Ti. 2:15)
    It's All About Jesus and He's the theology (John 5:39f)
    Biblical (2 Ti. 3:16)
    Zionist (Rm. 11:25-36)
    There is only one Commentary!
    (1 John 2:27; Rm. 8:9; Php. 1:19; Mt. 23:8)

    Salvation is Free (Eph. 2:8f) !!! It depends on his strength, not mine!!! (2 Co. 12:9)

    Stupid things Tet says...

    Quote Originally Posted by tetelestai View Post
    The old heavens and old earth was the law and the Old Covenant.

    The new heavens and new earth is the New Covenant.

  7. #6
    TOL Subscriber Lon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    8,153
    Thanks
    1,638
    Thanked 3,254 Times in 1,970 Posts

    Mentioned
    69 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    1628976
    Read again. It may not have been the response you were looking for, but it very much addressed your point. Briefly: What is good for the goose is NOT good for the gander. The Lord Jesus Christ is unique. He shared in our humanity, whatever that actually means but don't build any kind of false doctrine off of the comparison. That directly answers your post and clearly imho.

    Hebrews 4:15 "Yet" --> "unlike us, different, not the same, not as we"

    It is very clear to me, I don't think I can say it with more brevity or clarity. -Lon
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

  8. #7
    "That is why you Fail" Evil.Eye.<(I)>'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2016
    Location
    A distant planet called earth.
    Posts
    4,904
    Thanks
    6,504
    Thanked 1,753 Times in 1,354 Posts

    Blog Entries
    9
    Mentioned
    12 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    358075
    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    Read again. It may not have been the response you were looking for, but it very much addressed your point. Briefly: What is good for the goose is NOT good for the gander. The Lord Jesus Christ is unique. He shared in our humanity, whatever that actually means but don't build any kind of false doctrine off of the comparison. That directly answers your post and clearly imho.

    Hebrews 4:15 "Yet" --> "unlike us, different, not the same, not as we"

    It is very clear to me, I don't think I can say it with more brevity or clarity. -Lon
    Hebrews 2:14 is what it "means" and you keep trying to place yourself on the higher theological ground with parlor tricks and obfuscation, but it is actually Augustine that threatens the effectual result of Christ with his psychobabble and borrowed... duelistic view of God that brings forth a type of Taoism. There is NO darkness in God and Origonal Sin of Classic type... blends attributes of evil into God! It's in my OP preface!

    The "Eschewed Doctrine" approach won't grab here.

    I'll reamplify my OP preface...

    The Bible reveals two simple Truths that are easy to glean. There is Good... and God is that GOOD... and there is Evil... and that isn't and never has been "God's Will". God is a permissive God of Loving facilitation... and Free Will.

    Love without Free Choice and Free Reciprocation is an artificial intelligence that drifts off of the track of sincerity. The bottom line? God granted freedom to all of His Creations and permitted the resulting chaos that ensued... because Sincerity and Honesty are ingredients of reality that destroy the association of the label "Genuine"... with anything they are removed from.

    If... there is No honest choice or sincere reciprocation or rejection involved in love... what ever replicates Love and claims to be Love is nothing more than an artificial act that is rooted in passionless mockery!

    So...

    As a friend pointed out... knowingly or unknowingly... it all boils down to what a person believes the crafty serpent means to the ancient narrative of our origin.

    Does good "employ" evil to work its ill behind secret doors... or does evil usurp, interject and thrust itself upon Good in an attempt to use its goodness against it?

    As for your Hebrews Quote... yeah... UNLIKE us... He is GOD. End of subject. You are attempting to say HE WASN'T TEMPTED like us in EVERY manner! Don't you think the Sin Gene that you and Auggy propose would factor in? He WAS TEMPTED in EVERY manner we are... unless Hebrews has an ERROR. He did PARTAKE of our very FLESH and Blood... unless Hebrews has an ERROR.
    Open (Beyond Time ...1 Ki. 8:27) Relational to us within Time (John 1:1)
    Dispensational (2 Ti. 2:15)
    It's All About Jesus and He's the theology (John 5:39f)
    Biblical (2 Ti. 3:16)
    Zionist (Rm. 11:25-36)
    There is only one Commentary!
    (1 John 2:27; Rm. 8:9; Php. 1:19; Mt. 23:8)

    Salvation is Free (Eph. 2:8f) !!! It depends on his strength, not mine!!! (2 Co. 12:9)

    Stupid things Tet says...

    Quote Originally Posted by tetelestai View Post
    The old heavens and old earth was the law and the Old Covenant.

    The new heavens and new earth is the New Covenant.

  9. #8
    Over 750 post club
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Posts
    843
    Thanks
    534
    Thanked 193 Times in 162 Posts

    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    39407
    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    Hebrews 4:15 He is able to empathize with our infirmities as God. Catholics embrace Mary as sinless because of this yet, inconsistently, eschew semi-pelagianism. The doctrine of a sinless Mary, however, is semi-pelagian. They know Semipelagianism is heterodox at the best, heresy at the worst and so they endeavor to eschew it. You are close to the Catholic position. Oddly, the United Methodist Church is too and they have become Semipelagian as well.
    From the link: Semi-Pelagianism ....denied important points of the faith. Its basic claims were:

    Gets into monergism/synergism discussion as well, but Catholics necessarily have to agree with Calvinism to remain orthodox and biblical.


    They agree with Calvinism and grace salvation, inconsistently because they are caught in works-salvation issues.

    While penance and confession are designed to prevail upon grace, those are tokens toward grace rather than reliance, such is the strained dichotomy of walking worthy and a less than secured salvation of hope rather than standing.

    To me, strong elements of semipelagian theology yet sticks from those years of wrestling and re-wrestling with Pelagianism. Catholic doctrines leave the RC vulnerable to this day, to semipelagian sentiment. More importantly, the Open Theology movement with Boyd and Sanders courting Mormons in dialogue, the Open View too, has a natural theological weakness for falling back into Pelagian and Semi-Pelagian heresy and sinless birth is 1 and 2 (full Pelagian) and 3 (thus semi-pelagian and is against the life,death, and work of the Lord Jesus Christ (which is why both Semi-pelagianism and Pelagianism are heresies).

    Summation: 1) The Lord Jesus Christ is unique (different) than man. He is fully man, but we must be careful with our doctrines to think we are exactly like Him or He us. He is God's Only Begotten. As such, we should be careful about building our doctrines as if all things between He in us apply across board. 2) The Mormons make this mistake: Lorenzo Snow said "as we are, god once was. As God is, we may become." It is full Pelagian and worse. 3) Catholics, unable to distance from Pelagianism by their own theology of man born at least semi-good, believe in a form of Semipelagianism against their protestation YET know, per fact, that it is heresy (against the bible).

    Conclusion: It is no easy task trying to apply whatever condition our very unique Lord Jesus Christ went through at incarnation, to us. We are not Him. God is neither a man nor thinks like one. Thus, we know, all of us, that it is dangerous to try to apply our sin condition with whatever incarnation issues transpired and it is always best to discuss Him separately and with His own thread. We should not try and compare to build doctrine what isn't implicitly clear in scripture. Whatever scripture says is 'the same' we take for granted. After that, we need to pay attention to what scripture also says is different. Imho, you are equating where He is different. -Lon
    If I may, I would like to add my disagreement with your analysis of Catholic beliefs. I am busy at the moment, but will provide my response at a later time today.

    I just notice several errors in your comparison various beliefs and doctrines. This isn't meant as an attack on you, just the information presented.


    Sent from my iPhone using TOL

  10. The Following User Says Thank You to jsanford108 For Your Post:

    Lon (August 9th, 2017)

  11. #9
    TOL Subscriber Lon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    8,153
    Thanks
    1,638
    Thanked 3,254 Times in 1,970 Posts

    Mentioned
    69 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    1628976
    Quote Originally Posted by jsanford108 View Post
    If I may, I would like to add my disagreement with your analysis of Catholic beliefs. I am busy at the moment, but will provide my response at a later time today.

    I just notice several errors in your comparison various beliefs and doctrines. This isn't meant as an attack on you, just the information presented.


    Sent from my iPhone using TOL
    Understood and not a problem. Realize, however, this is an age-old discussion concerning Cat holism and Semi-Pelagianism.
    I think it behooves every Catholic to 1) understand your own history and 'why' this made it to two rounds in the RC. It is denial otherwise, I think. While the second time around still condemned even Semipelagianism, it did so none too clearly and from my reading, a bit wishy-washy. The physical location divide made it difficult to cause ruling and it, to me, became muddled when referring back to the council ruling on Pelagian heresy. 2) realize first, that there are semipelagians who are Catholic just as there are probably a few Jansenists in the closet. Realize too, that our view of salvation between protestants and catholics tends orbit monergism vs synergism salvation thus also traverses works and man's ability to effect his/her salvation.
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

  12. The Following User Says Thank You to Lon For Your Post:

    jsanford108 (August 9th, 2017)

  13. #10
    TOL Subscriber Lon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    8,153
    Thanks
    1,638
    Thanked 3,254 Times in 1,970 Posts

    Mentioned
    69 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    1628976
    Quote Originally Posted by Evil.Eye.<(I)> View Post
    Hebrews 2:14 is what it "means" and you keep trying to place yourself on the higher theological ground with parlor tricks and obfuscation, but it is actually Augustine that threatens the effectual result of Christ with his psychobabble and borrowed... duelistic view of God that brings forth a type of Taoism. There is NO darkness in God and Origonal Sin of Classic type... blends attributes of evil into God! It's in my OP preface!
    Imho, scripture cannot obfuscate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Evil.Eye.<(I)> View Post
    The "Eschewed Doctrine" approach won't grab here.

    I'll reamplify my OP preface...

    The Bible reveals two simple Truths that are easy to glean. There is Good... and God is that GOOD... and there is Evil... and that isn't and never has been "God's Will". God is a permissive God of Loving facilitation... and Free Will.

    Love without Free Choice and Free Reciprocation is an artificial intelligence that drifts off of the track of sincerity. The bottom line? God granted freedom to all of His Creations and permitted the resulting chaos that ensued... because Sincerity and Honesty are ingredients of reality that destroy the association of the label "Genuine"... with anything they are removed from.

    If... there is No honest choice or sincere reciprocation or rejection involved in love... what ever replicates Love and claims to be Love is nothing more than an artificial act that is rooted in passionless mockery!

    So...

    As a friend pointed out... knowingly or unknowingly... it all boils down to what a person believes the crafty serpent means to the ancient narrative of our origin.

    Does good "employ" evil to work its ill behind secret doors... or does evil usurp, interject and thrust itself upon Good in an attempt to use its goodness against it?

    As for your Hebrews Quote... yeah... UNLIKE us... He is GOD. End of subject. You are attempting to say HE WASN'T TEMPTED like us in EVERY manner! Don't you think the Sin Gene that you and Auggy propose would factor in? He WAS TEMPTED in EVERY manner we are... unless Hebrews has an ERROR. He did PARTAKE of our very FLESH and Blood... unless Hebrews has an ERROR.
    I have a probing question for you. Really think about it from both 'yes' and 'no' viewpoints and entertain them both for several moments because for me, it is the end of this discussion. I believe it quickly and decisively cuts to the core:

    Is there, will there ever be, or has there ever been, anyone that hasn't needed the Savior Jesus Christ? Again, think about 'everyone' and what you mean by that, including the unborn. Is there anyone, without a need of a Savior?

    As far as Hebrews 4:15, 'yet' means literally 'different than us.' Sorry about that. It is true.
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

  14. #11
    Over 750 post club
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Posts
    843
    Thanks
    534
    Thanked 193 Times in 162 Posts

    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    39407
    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    Hebrews 4:15 He is able to empathize with our infirmities as God. Catholics embrace Mary as sinless because of this yet, inconsistently, eschew semi-pelagianism. The doctrine of a sinless Mary, however, is semi-pelagian. They know Semipelagianism is heterodox at the best, heresy at the worst and so they endeavor to eschew it. You are close to the Catholic position. Oddly, the United Methodist Church is too and they have become Semipelagian as well.
    From the link: Semi-Pelagianism ....denied important points of the faith. Its basic claims were:

    Gets into monergism/synergism discussion as well, but Catholics necessarily have to agree with Calvinism to remain orthodox and biblical.


    They agree with Calvinism and grace salvation, inconsistently because they are caught in works-salvation issues.

    While penance and confession are designed to prevail upon grace, those are tokens toward grace rather than reliance, such is the strained dichotomy of walking worthy and a less than secured salvation of hope rather than standing.

    To me, strong elements of semipelagian theology yet sticks from those years of wrestling and re-wrestling with Pelagianism. Catholic doctrines leave the RC vulnerable to this day, to semipelagian sentiment. More importantly, the Open Theology movement with Boyd and Sanders courting Mormons in dialogue, the Open View too, has a natural theological weakness for falling back into Pelagian and Semi-Pelagian heresy and sinless birth is 1 and 2 (full Pelagian) and 3 (thus semi-pelagian and is against the life,death, and work of the Lord Jesus Christ (which is why both Semi-pelagianism and Pelagianism are heresies).

    Summation: 1) The Lord Jesus Christ is unique (different) than man. He is fully man, but we must be careful with our doctrines to think we are exactly like Him or He us. He is God's Only Begotten. As such, we should be careful about building our doctrines as if all things between He in us apply across board. 2) The Mormons make this mistake: Lorenzo Snow said "as we are, god once was. As God is, we may become." It is full Pelagian and worse. 3) Catholics, unable to distance from Pelagianism by their own theology of man born at least semi-good, believe in a form of Semipelagianism against their protestation YET know, per fact, that it is heresy (against the bible).

    Conclusion: It is no easy task trying to apply whatever condition our very unique Lord Jesus Christ went through at incarnation, to us. We are not Him. God is neither a man nor thinks like one. Thus, we know, all of us, that it is dangerous to try to apply our sin condition with whatever incarnation issues transpired and it is always best to discuss Him separately and with His own thread. We should not try and compare to build doctrine what isn't implicitly clear in scripture. Whatever scripture says is 'the same' we take for granted. After that, we need to pay attention to what scripture also says is different. Imho, you are equating where He is different. -Lon
    Okay, Lon. I am going to try and progress as chronologically as I can through this quote (I will underline your direct quotes as points). Forgive any errors that may occur, for I am sure the fault will be my own. As for what Evil Eye believes, I cannot speak to. For the record, you and Evil Eye are two of my favorite posters on TOL.

    "The doctrine of a sinless Mary, however, is semi-pelagian. They know Semipelagianism is heterodox at the best, heresy at the worst and so they endeavor to eschew it.": In a strict definition sense, I will agree to the doctrine of Mary's sinless nature, called "Immaculate Conception," as semi-pelagian. I do not believe that it was an issue that Catholicism tried to eschew, however. The idea that Mary was born without original sin is found in the greeting of the angel at the Annunciation. "Hail, full of grace." To be full of grace is to be "full," leaving no space for any lack of grace. Mary is the only person to every be greeted in such a manner. To be "full of grace" would include God's grace of being absent of original sin. This does not mean that Mary was not tempted. But it does mean that, being full of grace, she was able to avoid sin. *This does not make her equal in any capacity to Christ, as she still needed Christ for salvation.

    "Gets into monergism/synergism discussion as well, but Catholics necessarily have to agree with Calvinism to remain orthodox and biblical":This point is also false. Not through any fault of your own, as many Protestants commonly believe this. Catholics do not believe that any act of our own will, other than faith in Christ, can lead to our salvation. Yes, we believe that faith saves us, and works sustain that faith, but that does not mean "works salvation." We do believe that works are a part of our justification, as evidenced in the Gospels, such as the Good Fruits parables and Christ saying "those who keep my commandments love me" (paraphrased), as well as the Epistle of James.

    "They agree with Calvinism and grace salvation, inconsistently because they are caught in works-salvation issues.": As I said, it is not a "works salvation." This is a common misapplication to Catholicism. I just wanted to drive that point home; thus, adding in a second quote of your own.

    "While penance and confession are designed to prevail upon grace, those are tokens toward grace rather than reliance, such is the strained dichotomy of walking worthy and a less than secured salvation of hope rather than standing": If your former statements were fact, then this would be a very good conclusion. And I really do applaud you for really being able to draw logical conclusions from your points. But, when the facts are not true, (as I said, not your fault) then the conclusion is faulty, as well. Confession/penance is traced back to the Pentecost (John 20:23), when Christ says, "Whosoever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained." Catholics thus have the position of Paul, obeying and working out our salvation in fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12).

    "More importantly, the Open Theology movement with Boyd and Sanders courting Mormons in dialogue, the Open View too, has a natural theological weakness for falling back into Pelagian and Semi-Pelagian heresy and sinless birth is 1 and 2 (full Pelagian) and 3 (thus semi-pelagian and is against the life,death, and work of the Lord Jesus Christ (which is why both Semi-pelagianism and Pelagianism are heresies)": I agree. Well stated, friend.

    Your "Summation": I agree with points 1 and 2, but not 3, obviously. As I believe I have adequately demonstrated my point, I will simply give a final rebuttal. Catholics believe that man is born in original sin (thus, infant baptism). However, we do believe that man will naturally try to find God, as we are His Creation. (Even the Native Americans believed in a Great Spirit [in the sky...cue music].)

    Also, heresy is defined as "teachings, beliefs, or opinions contrary to Church doctrine and/or Sacred Scripture."

    As I said, this was not meant as an attack on you personally, but on the misapplied "facts" towards Catholicism. I know that often I spend most of my time on TOL making such defenses, but who are we if we do not defend our faith? Also, I love your signature quote about "separation of church and state." Best wishes, Lon.

  15. #12
    "That is why you Fail" Evil.Eye.<(I)>'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2016
    Location
    A distant planet called earth.
    Posts
    4,904
    Thanks
    6,504
    Thanked 1,753 Times in 1,354 Posts

    Blog Entries
    9
    Mentioned
    12 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    358075
    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    Imho, scripture cannot obfuscate.
    I totally Agree... imnsho... "scripture cannot obfuscate", but you have been... lately!

    I keep trying to hint to people that Augustine "Original Sin" is the foundation of the "Canons of Dor*"... and they seem to miss it! The entire foundation of Predestination and All not really meaning all is held up by the tired pillar of "Augustine". Calvin was essentially an Augustinian... and thus... the root of the Limiting of Atonement is essentially DESTROYED... as soon as the snake head of "AOS" is seen flying through the air!

    I suspect you know this and this is why you keep ignoring the actual points I've made towards you and you D-D-D-D-D ... odge.

    You go into this ridiculous self dialogue where it's like watching a sock puppet on your hand with my name make points to you that you answer... while I'm all by my lonesome... wishing you would admit that I have some scriptural points and relevant statements that deserve more than your bull snip interjection of the completely unrelated topic of Pel...



    It's a deceitful debate tactic that you have employed on this matter time and time again and I'm calling your back side on it... AGAIN! Again... for goodness sake!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post

    I have a probing question for you. Really think about it from both 'yes' and 'no' viewpoints and entertain them both for several moments because for me, it is the end of this discussion. I believe it quickly and decisively cuts to the core:

    Is there, will there ever be, or has there ever been, anyone that hasn't needed the Savior Jesus Christ? Again, think about 'everyone' and what you mean by that, including the unborn. Is there anyone, without a need of a Savior?
    The fact that you would even twist our discussions in such a way to suggest that I believe that anyone could ever... not need Jesus is absolute DECEPTION! From my first post here to my last... whenever that is... I have ALWAYS said ALL need JESUS! I'm pissed that you would even OBFUSCATE what you already know by asking this!

    I could bind a bunch of four letter words to my response to your poor taste in asking me this... when YOU KNOW MY RESPONSE... but I'll digress and avoid "flaming out"... just yet.
    Spoiler
    Spoiler Alert... I've been in the Navy and I have worked in the oil field... so... they're never too far from my grasp.... just saying


    2 Corinthians 5:8 All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

    World is KOSMOS and I don't care what anyone says... that word means UNIVERSE! The whole ENCHILADA!

    All are conceived under the very RECONCILIATION of Jesus Christ... in this grace age! If Christ hadn't reconciled the Whole WORLD... (can I get an Amen... @Robert Pate ? ... J/K... But ... you know what I mean} ... No ONE... and I mean... NO ONE ... would be able to HEAR the Gospel. Because Jesus finished what HE FINISHED... the whole world has ears! Not all want to hear... and WHY?!?

    John 3:19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.

    Your Elect idea is a bunch of hogwash and I pealed back your obfuscation on another thread... where you came out with it! You don't believe that Christ Died for those that "Reject Him".

    If you don't understand how LOVE works... then that's... all... on... you. LOVE is GIVEN FREELY and it is either RECEIVED or REJECTED! God isn't an absent Father... and He Loves ALL! He even LOVES HIS ENEMIES! He TOLD US SO!

    Matthew 5:43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 48 You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

    I would never eschew you for being what you are... but the more I dance with you theologically... the more I see that Musterion is right. There is no such thing as "Hyper Calvinism"! It's all fancy foot work... or people that have the courage to say it like they really believe it!

    The Canons of Dor*... in a nutshell
    God willed Good and Evil and HARDENS HIS heart to some of His creations. Some win the Divine Lottery and others lose!



    You are so IN LovE with those WICKED CANONS that AIN'T CANON that you close your ears to any idea that undermines them... even if it's the word ALL from scripture.

    I'm not MAD... but I am "Open" and I do believe that God has "Quantum or Dynamic" Omniscience that He utilizes in a "Responsive" manner, and not in a fatalistic manner that micromanages every single aspect of our existence!

    If God had wanted to only converse with God... He didn't need to do a damn thing! He clearly wants a RELATIONSHIP with others that are "different than Him" and He made the first MOVES... MOVES... Plural... as in CREATED... Situated... Re orientated... and STRAIGHT DBR'd for us! He clearly created us with the ability to deviate from Him and develop a "uniqueness" about us that He seems to "cherish"... as "some" "Cherish" Him back... (Some... like you and I). He never promotes "sin"... but... one "most important" definition of "sin" is "Missing the Mark"... and since the "mark" is "Jesus"... we are dependent on His GRACE from the moment we are a "glint" in His Eyes.

    Do the RELATIONSHIP MATH! He's done the reconciling ALREADY! It is and always has been CREATION that does the REJECTING!

    When a being is born... "after the DBR"... they are born "UNDER GRACE"... but... their first SINS... they fall away and are in need of absolute Redemption from those "WAGES"... for we know... Ezekiel 18:20 20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.... How many of us that "AREN'T" GOD have managed to live a life of sinnessness?

    Let's ASK PAUL...

    Romans 3:23 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

    Lets see that again...

    Romans 3:23 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

    Did you catch that... ???

    Romans 3:23 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

    We aren't born under the LAW... because of Jesus Christ, but GRACE! Grace rains on the Just and Unjust Lon! When we first SIN of our own free will... we must... MUST... go before HIM and accept our need for HIM! And I'll go ahead and out it... there are those that "become a Law unto themselves". There are those that He will save that never hear the NAME!

    Because of Jesus... We all start with a clean slate and are born into a world plagued with evil... JUST LIKE IN THE GARDEN! Evil was Present in the Garden... upon Creation, but Adam and Eve had a choice. SHOCKER... Satan corrupted innocence like a hellbent Pedophile! He has a 100% success rate! BUT... WE ARE ARMED against HIM NOW! God won the WAR... despite HOW MANY "Battles" the devil "thinks" they have won!

    Ephesians 6:10-18

    The Whole Armor of God

    10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord and in the power of His might. 11 Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. 13 Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

    14 Stand therefore, having girded your waist with truth, having put on the breastplate of righteousness, 15 and having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace; 16 above all, taking the shield of faith with which you will be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one. 17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God; 18 praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, being watchful to this end with all perseverance and supplication for all the saints—

    We couldn't afford that ARMOR... but Daddy could and did! He bought everyone a SET and not everyone puts it ON! If I own 10 packs of condoms, but don't use them... "Spoiler Alert". That's IT! The OVER COMPLICATION is ridiculous!

    Should we Baptize babies now? Did they choose that? For REAL! This is not expected territory to be in with a biblical scholar... such as yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    As far as Hebrews 4:15, 'yet' means literally 'different than us.' Sorry about that. It is true.
    Yeah! I know. HE's G-O-D to the Y-H-W-H to the E-L-O-H-I-M and HE's the only one that lived a sinless life one this earth... IN OUR FLESH!

    Commit the dictionary meaning of ALL to your memory!

    "All" used to refer to the whole quantity or extent of a particular group or thing. ~ Google

    And commit HEBREWS 2:14 and John 16:7-11 to your memory! I'm serious! MEMORIZE them!

    Hebrews 2:14 Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil,

    And for John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. 8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; 11 of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.

    When did Satan become the ruler of this world and where did we "elect" him?

    Genesis 3!

    I... can't.... believe... this... is... so... damn... difficult for people! It's Re-dork-ulous!

    # Canons OF!

    Does that upset you? Are those extra biblical reference that I sort of slight of hand poo pooed again.. sacred to you?

    I haven't been easy on you and I don't expect you to be easy on me... but seriously!!! man! !!!!!???!!!!!
    Last edited by Evil.Eye.<(I)>; August 10th, 2017 at 04:20 PM.
    Open (Beyond Time ...1 Ki. 8:27) Relational to us within Time (John 1:1)
    Dispensational (2 Ti. 2:15)
    It's All About Jesus and He's the theology (John 5:39f)
    Biblical (2 Ti. 3:16)
    Zionist (Rm. 11:25-36)
    There is only one Commentary!
    (1 John 2:27; Rm. 8:9; Php. 1:19; Mt. 23:8)

    Salvation is Free (Eph. 2:8f) !!! It depends on his strength, not mine!!! (2 Co. 12:9)

    Stupid things Tet says...

    Quote Originally Posted by tetelestai View Post
    The old heavens and old earth was the law and the Old Covenant.

    The new heavens and new earth is the New Covenant.

  16. #13
    "That is why you Fail" Evil.Eye.<(I)>'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2016
    Location
    A distant planet called earth.
    Posts
    4,904
    Thanks
    6,504
    Thanked 1,753 Times in 1,354 Posts

    Blog Entries
    9
    Mentioned
    12 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    358075
    Do you actually believe... @Lon ... That Adam and Eve were made Eternal? Did they not still require access to the Tree of Life to accomplish this? Was that access not denied?

    Gen 3:22 And the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become as one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put forth his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat and live for ever”—

    What changed Lon?

    Who is our source of ETERNAL LIFE @Lon ?

    John 11:26 and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?

    How can anyone Calvin that up?
    Open (Beyond Time ...1 Ki. 8:27) Relational to us within Time (John 1:1)
    Dispensational (2 Ti. 2:15)
    It's All About Jesus and He's the theology (John 5:39f)
    Biblical (2 Ti. 3:16)
    Zionist (Rm. 11:25-36)
    There is only one Commentary!
    (1 John 2:27; Rm. 8:9; Php. 1:19; Mt. 23:8)

    Salvation is Free (Eph. 2:8f) !!! It depends on his strength, not mine!!! (2 Co. 12:9)

    Stupid things Tet says...

    Quote Originally Posted by tetelestai View Post
    The old heavens and old earth was the law and the Old Covenant.

    The new heavens and new earth is the New Covenant.

  17. #14
    TOL Subscriber Lon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    8,153
    Thanks
    1,638
    Thanked 3,254 Times in 1,970 Posts

    Mentioned
    69 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    1628976
    Quote Originally Posted by Evil.Eye.<(I)> View Post
    Do you actually believe... @Lon ... That Adam and Eve were made Eternal? Did they not still require access to the Tree of Life to accomplish this? Was that access not denied?
    Gen 3:22 And the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become as one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put forth his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat and live for ever”—

    What changed Lon?

    Who is our source of ETERNAL LIFE @Lon ?

    John 11:26 and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?

    How can anyone Calvin that up?
    Or Open Theist it up? Why even bring either up?

    Though I do like Dort and Westminster, so what? . I've read some of Boyd Sanders and Pinnock (don't really like much of it, but have read it anyway). I like Enyart's The Plot. It doesn't mean anything, EE. Just chalk it up for well read and lets enjoy scripture and the things of God. I believe my question, specifically, for me, ends this discussion. You? Probably not. Almost all of us believe we are born in sin, not sinless. A few don't. Earth shattering? Not to me. I want you to know why I'm not and what specific considerations keep me from that door. We've both agreed we aren't going to change each other. If we can see each other's points, that would be meaningful to me. If not? Then let's just not go there or what have you.

    I actually believe the tree of Life was of no consequence until 'after' sin. Eating it, from my perspective, would have just been life to 'more life.'

    In Him -Lon
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

  18. #15
    TOL Subscriber Lon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    8,153
    Thanks
    1,638
    Thanked 3,254 Times in 1,970 Posts

    Mentioned
    69 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    1628976
    Quote Originally Posted by jsanford108 View Post
    Okay, Lon. I am going to try and progress... For the record, you and Evil Eye are two of my favorite posters on TOL.
    Thank you, humbly.
    I am going to truncate a bit, if I miss something important to you, please bring it back up to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by jsanford108 View Post
    In a strict definition sense, I will agree to the doctrine of Mary's sinless nature, called "Immaculate Conception," as semi-pelagian.
    I believe the Lord Jesus was her Savior too. Mariology is always an interesting discussion, for me, because it is a congregation-up doctrine. It really started grass roots rather than from the Pope/Cardinals down. It is unique.

    Quote Originally Posted by jsanford108 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lon
    "Gets into monergism/synergism discussion as well, but Catholics necessarily have to agree with Calvinism to remain orthodox and biblical"
    :This point is also false. Not through any fault of your own, as many Protestants commonly believe this. Catholics do not believe that any act of our own will, other than faith in Christ, can lead to our salvation.
    Which is really what I was saying when I said the RC has to agree on this particular. We all do. "Works" theology is difficult across board (we all wrestle with it in our own groups). It is also one of the primary denominational splitters.


    Quote Originally Posted by jsanford108 View Post
    "They agree with Calvinism and grace salvation, inconsistently because they are caught in works-salvation issues.": As I said, it is not a "works salvation." This is a common misapplication to Catholicism. I just wanted to drive that point home; thus, adding in a second quote of your own.

    "While penance and confession are designed to prevail upon grace, those are tokens toward grace rather than reliance, such is the strained dichotomy of walking worthy and a less than secured salvation of hope rather than standing": If your former statements were fact, then this would be a very good conclusion. And I really do applaud you for really being able to draw logical conclusions from your points. But, when the facts are not true, (as I said, not your fault) then the conclusion is faulty, as well. Confession/penance is traced back to the Pentecost (John 20:23), when Christ says, "Whosoever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained." Catholics thus have the position of Paul, obeying and working out our salvation in fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12).
    I used to be Catholic, so some of this may be area comments. I've noticed not all priests are as up on proper Catholic theology as they ought to be. Some laymen like yourself on TOL, actually have a better grasp on some of this than a priest or two I've listened to or talked to.

    Quote Originally Posted by jsanford108 View Post
    Catholics believe that man is born in original sin (thus, infant baptism). However, we do believe that man will naturally try to find God, as we are His Creation. (Even the Native Americans believed in a Great Spirit [in the sky...cue music].)
    This is about the line I'd heard in sermons from priests as well.
    Quote Originally Posted by jsanford108 View Post
    Also, heresy is defined as "teachings, beliefs, or opinions contrary to Church doctrine and/or Sacred Scripture."

    As I said, this was not meant as an attack on you personally, but on the misapplied "facts" towards Catholicism. I know that often I spend most of my time on TOL making such defenses, but who are we if we do not defend our faith? Also, I love your signature quote about "separation of church and state." Best wishes, Lon.
    No problem. For me, dialogue is important. We aren't changing one another persay, though I very much believe God is sovereign over our conversations. I apologize briefly for EE and I. Things do get heated about things we cherish in doctrine, but there is no way, he or I, would stop being brothers in Christ. The tenor, however, can get rough. I think I can give as good as I get, but I seldom do with E.E. I won't with you either. His grace. -Lon
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

  19. The Following User Says Thank You to Lon For Your Post:

    jsanford108 (August 10th, 2017)

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
About us
Since 1997 TheologyOnline (TOL) has been one of the most popular theology forums on the internet. On TOL we encourage spirited conversation about religion, politics, and just about everything else.

follow us