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Thread: Pela... Who? Don't know him! and how Augustine Original Sin has been addressed.

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    "That is why you Fail" Evil.Eye.<(I)>'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danoh View Post
    Why is it that in the OT, the LORD has Israel wipe out men, women, and children, etc.

    And there are other issues any Dispy should at least also consider.

    Like the fact that not even children within Israel's Covenant are always given a pass, as in when God let's loose His wrath and or allows Israel's enemies to.

    Matthew 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

    Why?

    See the prayer of an "innocent and (that is to say) righteous" man (in God's eyes) named Daniel, in Daniel 9, who was nevertheless under Israel's severe punishment with them.

    The following actually included hundreds of thousands of men, women and children...

    Luke 19:41 And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it, 19:42 Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes. 19:43 For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side, 19:44 And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.

    Rom. 5:8
    Acts 17:11,12
    I'll quote and respond on the Pel. Who thread.

    Hosea 6:6 For I desire steadfast love and not sacrifice, the knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings

    And...

    Matthew 9:13 Go and learn what this means: I desire mercy, and not sacrifice. For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners

    In other words... the flesh was destroyed... but not the soul. Eternal life is kind of more important than this ephemeral kingdom of "dust"... wouldn't you agree?

    Perhaps preservation of innocence?

    Lens with mercy or malice... your "choice".
    Open (Beyond Time ...1 Ki. 8:27) Relational to us within Time (John 1:1)
    Dispensational (2 Ti. 2:15)
    It's All About Jesus and He's the theology (John 5:39f)
    Biblical (2 Ti. 3:16)
    Zionist (Rm. 11:25-36)
    There is only one Commentary!
    (1 John 2:27; Rm. 8:9; Php. 1:19; Mt. 23:8)

    Salvation is Free (Eph. 2:8f) !!! It depends on his strength, not mine!!! (2 Co. 12:9)

    Stupid things Tet says...

    Quote Originally Posted by tetelestai View Post
    The old heavens and old earth was the law and the Old Covenant.

    The new heavens and new earth is the New Covenant.

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  3. #32
    TOL Subscriber Lon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evil.Eye.<(I)> View Post

    Hosea 6:6 For I desire steadfast love and not sacrifice, the knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings
    But does a newborn need sacrifice, burnt offering? Who were the two doves for? Mary or Jesus? We've had this conversation. Is this all simply going to be a rehash but 'with force and forceful' this time?

    And...

    Matthew 9:13 Go and learn what this means: I desire mercy, and not sacrifice. For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners
    So He didn't come for infants??? There was a reason I asked if all need Jesus without exception. It is important. For me? I'm fairly cemented, and not because any 'canon' did it. Verses like the ones we are considering, actually. There is NO NEED to even mention a Calvinism or a Dort or a "The Plot." Scriptures and them alone. If I can stand on them AND not get caught in a meaningless posturing debate over theological camps. If we can't talk ONLY scriptures, I'm gonna bow out. I really don't want and 'us/them' conversation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Evil.Eye.<(I)> View Post
    Idols of theological formulation that cause you to see scriptural mirages that aren't there.
    See, to me? Pointless. It is the mirage. There is no need, ever, in a thread like this to bring it up BECAUSE this particular conversation is not a respecter of such. It crosses boundaries. There are Open Theists that disagree with you, MAD that disagree with you, Catholics that disagree. I will grant you that I know of no Calvinist that 'can' agree with you, but such hardly matters. All this talk of Calvin, Dort, or lemmings is rabbit trail after rabbit trail. It is, indeed, part of global thinking, but on a topic like this, 32 double spaced pages of all this, "the unholy trinity" is too far away from simply two points: Man born with a disease called sin "by nature" or Man is born without that. None of this other chat will or can help. Every muscle, I think, must be pointed that direction. Let's try this: I give a scripture and try to establish a point, you respond on that scripture and bring up one or two and I'll try and respond meaningfully to those.


    This was almost cordial... but... ahem... born into sin and born a "sinner" with sin on the Tally are two separate subjects. And... "Most"... Really? Mob rules? Do you have the study and statistics and are they global or just conducted by people with a desire to farm such results? If the lemmings go over the cliff, @Lon... are you following?
    It depends if those fringe kids are out there smoking. Yeah, I was a 'lemming' and stayed in school.



    I breath a tiny bit of fire and now we're shutting down. I can say "fair"... but seriously? Don't you see that this dialogue pushes one another to search out the Why of our understanding beyond what the Lemmings say?
    I'm 'fairly' made up in my mind. At this point, I don't see a need at all for being born sinless, but rather, it goes against what I've understood about myself at a very young age. I was 5. Perhaps precocious, but I KNEW I was sinning and did it anyway. I KNEW it was wrong. When seven rolled around, I heard the gospel and what Jesus had done for me. Mom told me a couple of things I did younger too, I was four and shoved my 1 1/2 year old sister under the house to get a bird. It wasn't terribly mean spirited, but it was sin. Nobody can tell me otherwise, I knew what I was doing AND what I was supposed to be doing. Did I do good sometimes too? Sure. That wasn't the dilemma. As far as I am concerned, I was about born sinning. I didn't learn it from anybody. I needed a Savior. You agreed I needed one too. So, from even my earliest memories (even at 2 1/2 and 3), I remember a lot AND more importantly, whether I was a sinner or not. Probably both you and GD will say "no way!" but I know what I know. On top of that, scripture to me, seems to confirm my need fairly clearly. I do believe Paul was spot on saying "by nature" we were 'children' of wrath. GD says a child isn't an infant, but 'by nature' doesn't leave much room for speculation the other way. Ephesians 2:3 is my only scripture this post. The rest? Fluff and stuff (commentary on 'my' Ephesians 2:3 thoughts and experience).


    By omission, they were NEVER told to eat of it to 'stay alive' or never grow old. Simply: you may eat of any tree (including the tree of life) but one.
    It 'seems' there would have been a 'Hey, make sure to eat from this one once in awhile, though, else you'll also die!" It would have been important to mention it. To me, the ToL (Tree of Life) by presence, whether commanded or not MUST have ensured their eternal life. How could it not have? Their immortality is the only thing that makes sense to me, when you look at it.



    Quote Originally Posted by Evil.Eye.<(I)> View Post
    I know I'm difficult... I appreciate your back and forth.


    - In Him. - EE. Aka... fellow sibling of thunder
    As I told Sanford, you and I will continue to have challenging conversations. Our eternal brotherhood is secured in Him.
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

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  5. #33
    TOL Subscriber glorydaz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evil.Eye.<(I)> View Post
    That falls in line with justice. The idea that innocence could be declared guilty before guilt is so out of line with justice that I'm always shocked some people hand God the bag of declaring all guilty... before their initial guilt.

    We all fall short and into the category of guilty by our own devices and response to being in a sinful world. This old world and the devils trappings grab all of us that don't happen to be "The Almighty With Us". I'm always supprised when that is complicated to some.

    Anyhow... gratitude.
    It's simply a matter of man's accountability to God. A personal accounting for what we do....not what others do, but what we have done. Indeed, we all reach a certain age when we knowingly do what we know to be wrong. God know when that moment is, and we do, too.

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  7. #34
    TOL Subscriber glorydaz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    But does a newborn need sacrifice, burnt offering? Who were the two doves for? Mary or Jesus? We've had this conversation. Is this all simply going to be a rehash but 'with force and forceful' this time?
    The two doves were for Mary's purification from childbirth...the extra dove because they were poor.

    I'm 'fairly' made up in my mind. At this point, I don't see a need at all for being born sinless, but rather, it goes against what I've understood about myself at a very young age. I was 5. Perhaps precocious, but I KNEW I was sinning and did it anyway. I KNEW it was wrong. When seven rolled around, I heard the gospel and what Jesus had done for me. Mom told me a couple of things I did younger too, I was four and shoved my 1 1/2 year old sister under the house to get a bird. It wasn't terribly mean spirited, but it was sin. Nobody can tell me otherwise, I knew what I was doing AND what I was supposed to be doing. Did I do good sometimes too? Sure. That wasn't the dilemma. As far as I am concerned, I was about born sinning. I didn't learn it from anybody. I needed a Savior. You agreed I needed one too. So, from even my earliest memories (even at 2 1/2 and 3), I remember a lot AND more importantly, whether I was a sinner or not. Probably both you and GD will say "no way!" but I know what I know. On top of that, scripture to me, seems to confirm my need fairly clearly. I do believe Paul was spot on saying "by nature" we were 'children' of wrath. GD says a child isn't an infant, but 'by nature' doesn't leave much room for speculation the other way. Ephesians 2:3 is my only scripture this post. The rest? Fluff and stuff (commentary on 'my' Ephesians 2:3 thoughts and experience).
    Any child psychologist would tell you those are the false memories of an emotionally abused child. As a parent (and a child, myself), I can strongly dispute what you say about your childhood. If your parents told you it was wrong to feed the cat, you would think you were sinning by sneaking him some food. That is not evidence of a "sin nature". None of what you posted speaks of a sin nature. Children are simply not developed enough to understand the difference between good and evil.

    You can take a child and tell him it's evil to deny his daddy sex, for example, and he may believe it the rest of his life. He may see himself dirty from the time he could walk. It seems every time I hear your story about your childhood, your age gets younger and your memories more graphic. I'm not in the least calling you a liar, but I do not believe your memories are legitimate.

    At this point, you can not bring up your personal testimony of "evil" at such a young age to prove any Biblical point, and have it hold water. People do not tell lies from their birth. Bible verses should not be used like a self-fulfilling prophecy of sin and corruption. It isn't right, and it really doesn't prove what you hope it does.

    It's all written in the Word of God. Our job is to be honest as we consider each verse.

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  9. #35
    TOL Subscriber Lon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    The two doves were for Mary's purification from childbirth...the extra dove because they were poor.



    Any child psychologist would tell you those are the false memories of an emotionally abused child. As a parent (and a child, myself), I can strongly dispute what you say about your childhood. If your parents told you it was wrong to feed the cat, you would think you were sinning by sneaking him some food. That is not evidence of a "sin nature". None of what you posted speaks of a sin nature. Children are simply not developed enough to understand the difference between good and evil.

    You can take a child and tell him it's evil to deny his daddy sex, for example, and he may believe it the rest of his life. He may see himself dirty from the time he could walk. It seems every time I hear your story about your childhood, your age gets younger and your memories more graphic. I'm not in the least calling you a liar, but I do not believe your memories are legitimate.

    At this point, you can not bring up your personal testimony of "evil" at such a young age to prove any Biblical point, and have it hold water. People do not tell lies from their birth. Bible verses should not be used like a self-fulfilling prophecy of sin and corruption. It isn't right, and it really doesn't prove what you hope it does.

    It's all written in the Word of God. Our job is to be honest as we consider each verse.
    Sorry, nope. I told lies, knew they were lies, at four. I cussed, at four. Now mom did tell me she'd wash my mouth out, but I did it anyway. Like I said, you can call me precocious, but I knew good and evil very young. I didn't and don't think you are calling me a liar and appreciate your words to distance from such as well. I predicted your incredulity. I've been through child development psychology. My degree has to do with childhood development. I realize I don't fit the bill, but I do have a VERY good memory of some things when I was 2 1/2 and 3. I have a better memory of 4 including knowing very well, what sin was and that I was doing so. At age of seven, just ready to start first grade, I received the Lord Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior and knew my sins, against Him. There was no outside influence. I knew it and was extremely thankful for His forgiveness and Salvation. I remember it like it was yesterday.
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

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  11. #36
    "That is why you Fail" Evil.Eye.<(I)>'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    Sorry, nope. I told lies, knew they were lies, at four. I cussed, at four. Now mom did tell me she'd wash my mouth out, but I did it anyway.
    Lon, you're literally using your confidence that 4 year olds are wicked from your personal perspective. I think you're suggesting by disobeying that you broke the law. Okay... I agree with GD's perspective... but let's go ahead and throw you a bone... at 4... you were In league with the destroyer... motorcycle gang disobedience and chewing soap up and spitting it out to emphasize what a little demon you were.



    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    Like I said, you can call me precocious, but I knew good and evil very young.
    Answer 1

    Okay Lon... Demon bred... forged in hell, little Lon was a wicked 4 year old... fine... what Evs... ... How about little fetus Lon? What was your sin? Swimming the wrong direction on your way to the egg? Or perhaps, kicking as a baby in your mommies belly? Maybe you enjoyed the nutrients from the umbilical cord so much you were a greedy glutton? How about birth? What was your sin there? Was your need of Love, Food and Sleep a sin as you were an infant? How does God sort bad babies from good ones?

    Are you saying a 1 day old baby is evil? Are you saying that babies are demanding Demons? This seems to be a really garbage attitude if you are! Innocence is real Lon.

    Adam and Eve lost it and we do too! The story is a firm guide for us! Born in grace. We sin and need to actively seek God's grace that we fell from... in disobedience. Your version reinvents the wheel. The Adam and Eve lost innocence and were created "In Christ"... version... parallels how we were born.

    Before Christ's DBR... Sure... born under the law. But again... how soon do you hold a baby to the stone?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    Sorry, nope. I told lies, knew they were lies, at four. I cussed, at four. Now mom did tell me she'd wash my mouth out, but I did it anyway.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    Like I said, you can call me precocious, but I knew good and evil very young.
    Answer 2

    How about 1 day old Lon? Are you so condemning that you hold a babies hunger and need for Love as Sin?

    Check it out Lon... Born innocent in Christ in a sin filled world where we eventually choose evil. Done! That parallels the Garden account. Redemption required.

    Redemption happened. Sounds like the message!

    We either claim it or we... dead do not and those that never hear the message... become a law unto themselves.

    What's changed?

    Your version... Augustine reinvention of the wheel!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    I've been through child development psychology. My degree has to do with childhood development. I realize I don't fit the bill, but I do have a VERY good memory of some things when I was 2 1/2 and 3. I have a better memory of 4 including knowing very well, what sin was and that I was doing so.
    Sure Lon... you're being absurd... but fine... you were wicked. About Psychology... and? Maybe we should scrap theology and just go off of college text books? Good idea?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    At age of seven, just ready to start first grade, I received the Lord Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior and knew my sins, against Him. There was no outside influence. I knew it and was extremely thankful for His forgiveness and Salvation. I remember it like it was yesterday.
    Lon... no part of this addresses what sin you hold against a fetus and 1 week old.

    So? What's your answer?

    Born in Him... we stray... He Redeemed us... we have a choice! Some never hear the message, but His blood is far more effectual than we can even begin to surmise.

    Aka... The Blood of GOD!

    I'm all ears Lon. What exactly do you charge to a fetus's account? A one week old?
    Open (Beyond Time ...1 Ki. 8:27) Relational to us within Time (John 1:1)
    Dispensational (2 Ti. 2:15)
    It's All About Jesus and He's the theology (John 5:39f)
    Biblical (2 Ti. 3:16)
    Zionist (Rm. 11:25-36)
    There is only one Commentary!
    (1 John 2:27; Rm. 8:9; Php. 1:19; Mt. 23:8)

    Salvation is Free (Eph. 2:8f) !!! It depends on his strength, not mine!!! (2 Co. 12:9)

    Stupid things Tet says...

    Quote Originally Posted by tetelestai View Post
    The old heavens and old earth was the law and the Old Covenant.

    The new heavens and new earth is the New Covenant.

  12. #37
    TOL Subscriber Lon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evil.Eye.<(I)> View Post
    Lon, you're literally using your confidence that 4 year olds are wicked from your personal perspective. I think you're suggesting by disobeying that you broke the law. Okay... I agree with GD's perspective... but let's go ahead and throw you a bone... at 4... you were In league with the destroyer... motorcycle gang disobedience and chewing soap up and spitting it out to emphasize what a little demon you were.





    Answer 1

    Okay Lon... Demon bred... forged in hell, little Lon was a wicked 4 year old... fine... what Evs... ... How about little fetus Lon? What was your sin? Swimming the wrong direction on your way to the egg? Or perhaps, kicking as a baby in your mommies belly? Maybe you enjoyed the nutrients from the umbilical cord so much you were a greedy glutton? How about birth? What was your sin there? Was your need of Love, Food and Sleep a sin as you were an infant? How does God sort bad babies from good ones?

    Are you saying a 1 day old baby is evil? Are you saying that babies are demanding Demons? This seems to be a really garbage attitude if you are! Innocence is real Lon.

    Adam and Eve lost it and we do too! The story is a firm guide for us! Born in grace. We sin and need to actively seek God's grace that we fell from... in disobedience. Your version reinvents the wheel. The Adam and Eve lost innocence and were created "In Christ"... version... parallels how we were born.

    Before Christ's DBR... Sure... born under the law. But again... how soon do you hold a baby to the stone?





    Answer 2

    How about 1 day old Lon? Are you so condemning that you hold a babies hunger and need for Love as Sin?

    Check it out Lon... Born innocent in Christ in a sin filled world where we eventually choose evil. Done! That parallels the Garden account. Redemption required.

    Redemption happened. Sounds like the message!

    We either claim it or we... dead do not and those that never hear the message... become a law unto themselves.

    What's changed?

    Your version... Augustine reinvention of the wheel!



    Sure Lon... you're being absurd... but fine... you were wicked. About Psychology... and? Maybe we should scrap theology and just go off of college text books? Good idea?



    Lon... no part of this addresses what sin you hold against a fetus and 1 week old.

    So? What's your answer?

    Born in Him... we stray... He Redeemed us... we have a choice! Some never hear the message, but His blood is far more effectual than we can even begin to surmise.

    Aka... The Blood of GOD!

    I'm all ears Lon. What exactly do you charge to a fetus's account? A one week old?
    Don't just listen to me, or don't listen to me at all Ephesians 2:3
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

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    "That is why you Fail" Evil.Eye.<(I)>'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    Don't just listen to me, or don't listen to me at all Ephesians 2:3
    You're dodging ALL fair questions towards you... and ...!in full context of scripture and this discussion... that scripture falls towards both of us.

    Try again!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    Sorry, nope. I told lies, knew they were lies, at four. I cussed, at four. Now mom did tell me she'd wash my mouth out, but I did it anyway.
    Lon, you're literally using your confidence that 4 year olds are wicked from your personal perspective. I think you're suggesting by disobeying that you broke the law. Okay... I agree with GD's perspective... but let's go ahead and throw you a bone... at 4... you were In league with the destroyer... motorcycle gang disobedience and chewing soap up and spitting it out to emphasize what a little demon you were.



    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    Like I said, you can call me precocious, but I knew good and evil very young.
    Answer 1

    Okay Lon... Demon bred... forged in hell, little Lon was a wicked 4 year old... fine... what Evs... ... How about little fetus Lon? What was your sin? Swimming the wrong direction on your way to the egg? Or perhaps, kicking as a baby in your mommies belly? Maybe you enjoyed the nutrients from the umbilical cord so much you were a greedy glutton? How about birth? What was your sin there? Was your need of Love, Food and Sleep a sin as you were an infant? How does God sort bad babies from good ones?

    Are you saying a 1 day old baby is evil? Are you saying that babies are demanding Demons? This seems to be a really garbage attitude if you are! Innocence is real Lon.

    Adam and Eve lost it and we do too! The story is a firm guide for us! Born in grace. We sin and need to actively seek God's grace that we fell from... in disobedience. Your version reinvents the wheel. The Adam and Eve lost innocence and were created "In Christ"... version... parallels how we were born.

    Before Christ's DBR... Sure... born under the law. But again... how soon do you hold a baby to the stone?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    Sorry, nope. I told lies, knew they were lies, at four. I cussed, at four. Now mom did tell me she'd wash my mouth out, but I did it anyway.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    Like I said, you can call me precocious, but I knew good and evil very young.
    Answer 2

    How about 1 day old Lon? Are you so condemning that you hold a babies hunger and need for Love as Sin?

    Check it out Lon... Born innocent in Christ in a sin filled world where we eventually choose evil. Done! That parallels the Garden account. Redemption required.

    Redemption happened. Sounds like the message!

    We either claim it or we... dead do not and those that never hear the message... become a law unto themselves.

    What's changed?

    Your version... Augustine reinvention of the wheel!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    I've been through child development psychology. My degree has to do with childhood development. I realize I don't fit the bill, but I do have a VERY good memory of some things when I was 2 1/2 and 3. I have a better memory of 4 including knowing very well, what sin was and that I was doing so.
    Sure Lon... you're being absurd... but fine... you were wicked. About Psychology... and? Maybe we should scrap theology and just go off of college text books? Good idea?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    At age of seven, just ready to start first grade, I received the Lord Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior and knew my sins, against Him. There was no outside influence. I knew it and was extremely thankful for His forgiveness and Salvation. I remember it like it was yesterday.
    Lon... no part of this addresses what sin you hold against a fetus and 1 week old.

    So? What's your answer?

    Born in Him... we stray... He Redeemed us... we have a choice! Some never hear the message, but His blood is far more effectual than we can even begin to surmise.

    Aka... The Blood of GOD!

    I'm all ears Lon. What exactly do you charge to a fetus's account? A one week old?
    Open (Beyond Time ...1 Ki. 8:27) Relational to us within Time (John 1:1)
    Dispensational (2 Ti. 2:15)
    It's All About Jesus and He's the theology (John 5:39f)
    Biblical (2 Ti. 3:16)
    Zionist (Rm. 11:25-36)
    There is only one Commentary!
    (1 John 2:27; Rm. 8:9; Php. 1:19; Mt. 23:8)

    Salvation is Free (Eph. 2:8f) !!! It depends on his strength, not mine!!! (2 Co. 12:9)

    Stupid things Tet says...

    Quote Originally Posted by tetelestai View Post
    The old heavens and old earth was the law and the Old Covenant.

    The new heavens and new earth is the New Covenant.

  14. #39
    TOL Subscriber Lon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evil.Eye.<(I)> View Post
    Try again
    Quote Originally Posted by Evil.Eye.<(I)> View Post
    Lon, you're literally using your confidence that 4 year olds are wicked from your personal perspective....t let's go ahead and throw you a bone... at 4... you were In league with the destroyer... motorcycle gang disobedience and chewing soap up and spitting it out to emphasize what a little demon you were.
    Yes, after so many words.

    Quote Originally Posted by Evil.Eye.<(I)> View Post
    ... How about little fetus Lon? What was your sin?
    Verse at the end... I and you MUST wrestle with scriptures.

    Quote Originally Posted by Evil.Eye.<(I)> View Post

    What's changed?

    Your version... Augustine reinvention of the wheel!
    WAAAAY before I ever read Augustine, of whom you sound reasonably familiar AND perhaps MORE familiar than me I read Ephesians 2:3 etc.



    Quote Originally Posted by Evil.Eye.<(I)> View Post
    Sure Lon... you're being absurd... but fine... you were wicked.
    Fighting with siblings? Cussing? Even drinking from a whisky and coke glass? I knew it was forbidden. I knew as well what it did and 'why' I wasn't supposed to do it, did it anyway. Ephesians 2:3 That was me until age 7.

    Quote Originally Posted by Evil.Eye.<(I)> View Post
    About Psychology... and? Maybe we should scrap theology and just go off of college text books? Good idea?
    Doesn't help you.



    Quote Originally Posted by Evil.Eye.<(I)> View Post
    Lon... no part of this addresses what sin you hold against a fetus and 1 week old.

    So? What's your answer?

    Born in Him... we stray... He Redeemed us... we have a choice! Some never hear the message, but His blood is far more effectual than we can even begin to surmise.

    Aka... The Blood of GOD!

    I'm all ears Lon. What exactly do you charge to a fetus's account? A one week old?
    Don't just listen to me, or don't listen to me at all Ephesians 2:3 by phusis nature - the way we are made.

    I didn't write that.
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

  15. #40
    "That is why you Fail" Evil.Eye.<(I)>'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    Yes, after so many words.


    Verse at the end... I and you MUST wrestle with scriptures.
    contextually void of condemning a fetus and 1 week old! Try again and quit trying to wriggle out of this!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    WAAAAY before I ever read Augustine, of whom you sound reasonably familiar AND perhaps MORE familiar than me I read Ephesians 2:3 etc.

    Fighting with siblings? Cussing? Even drinking from a whisky and coke glass? I knew it was forbidden. I knew as well what it did and 'why' I wasn't supposed to do it, did it anyway. Ephesians 2:3 That was me until age 7.

    Doesn't help you.

    Don't just listen to me, or don't listen to me at all Ephesians 2:3 by phusis nature - the way we are now made.

    I didn't write that.
    Who gave us this "sin nature"?

    Nature connects to how we are when we choose evil... like Adam and Eve... so... nice try inserting verbiage that isn't there.

    What sin do you charge to a fetus and 1 day old?

    You're dodging all over the place and leaning on extra biblical perception to prove your point with a verse that says something that agrees with both of us. The difference?

    You're inserting that a fetus is condemned by GOD before birth... under the law. You are mega dodging!

    "Dosen't help me?" Hardly accurate... BTW... You're the one that's tap dancing... not me.
    Open (Beyond Time ...1 Ki. 8:27) Relational to us within Time (John 1:1)
    Dispensational (2 Ti. 2:15)
    It's All About Jesus and He's the theology (John 5:39f)
    Biblical (2 Ti. 3:16)
    Zionist (Rm. 11:25-36)
    There is only one Commentary!
    (1 John 2:27; Rm. 8:9; Php. 1:19; Mt. 23:8)

    Salvation is Free (Eph. 2:8f) !!! It depends on his strength, not mine!!! (2 Co. 12:9)

    Stupid things Tet says...

    Quote Originally Posted by tetelestai View Post
    The old heavens and old earth was the law and the Old Covenant.

    The new heavens and new earth is the New Covenant.

  16. #41
    "That is why you Fail" Evil.Eye.<(I)>'s Avatar
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    @Lon ... 2 Corinthians 11:13 But I am afraid that, even as the serpent beguiled Eve by his cunning, your minds may be corrupted and led away from the simplicity of [your sincere and] pure devotion to Christ.

    Again... Adam and Eve were born into an unnatural world with the serpents rebellions. Nature of the world... Nature of Evil.

    Did or did not God permit Satan to choose evil?

    Did or did not God permit Adam and Eve to Choose?

    Does God permit us to Choose?

    I'm asking you... again and again to charge an infant and a fetus with the law.

    You are dodging all over the place! Does God condemn someone before they commit the offense in heart, mind or body?

    Does 2nd Corinthians 5:19 bother you... if I'm right and it applies here? That's "kosmon"... in 2 Cor. 5:19 and goes far beyond local as it roots from "Kosmos" which is "Universe"!

    Before the foundation becomes globally effectual and shows that all are chosen upon birth.

    Why was Judas "Lost", though He was chosen?

    Your right engine just failed and your points are now showing as being "ripped from context"!
    Open (Beyond Time ...1 Ki. 8:27) Relational to us within Time (John 1:1)
    Dispensational (2 Ti. 2:15)
    It's All About Jesus and He's the theology (John 5:39f)
    Biblical (2 Ti. 3:16)
    Zionist (Rm. 11:25-36)
    There is only one Commentary!
    (1 John 2:27; Rm. 8:9; Php. 1:19; Mt. 23:8)

    Salvation is Free (Eph. 2:8f) !!! It depends on his strength, not mine!!! (2 Co. 12:9)

    Stupid things Tet says...

    Quote Originally Posted by tetelestai View Post
    The old heavens and old earth was the law and the Old Covenant.

    The new heavens and new earth is the New Covenant.

  17. #42
    "That is why you Fail" Evil.Eye.<(I)>'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    Yes, after so many words.


    Verse at the end... I and you MUST wrestle with scriptures.


    WAAAAY before I ever read Augustine, of whom you sound reasonably familiar AND perhaps MORE familiar than me I read Ephesians 2:3 etc.




    Fighting with siblings? Cussing? Even drinking from a whisky and coke glass? I knew it was forbidden. I knew as well what it did and 'why' I wasn't supposed to do it, did it anyway. Ephesians 2:3 That was me until age 7.

    Doesn't help you.





    Don't just listen to me, or don't listen to me at all Ephesians 2:3 by phusis nature - the way we are made.

    I didn't write that.
    No... you didn't and you aren't asking the Maker but are attempting to hunker down on ONE verse.

    Ezekiel 18:20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

    And look... I didn't write that.

    And again... what condemns us?

    Galatians 3:Galatians 3:19 Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring would come to whom the promise had been made; and it was ordained through angels by a mediator. 3:20 Now a mediator involves more than one party; but God is one. 3:21 Is the law then opposed to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could make alive, then righteousness would indeed come through the law. 3:22 But the scripture has imprisoned all things under the power of sin, so that what was promised through faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 3:23 Now before faith came, we were imprisoned and guarded under the law until faith would be revealed. 3:24 Therefore the law was our disciplinarian until Christ came, so that we might be justified by faith. 3:25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer subject to a disciplinarian.

    So Lon...

    Again... Where there is no Law there is no sin... so what LAW does an INFANT break that is its own sin? A fetus?

    You're DODGING this and throwing your sucker in the dirt!
    Open (Beyond Time ...1 Ki. 8:27) Relational to us within Time (John 1:1)
    Dispensational (2 Ti. 2:15)
    It's All About Jesus and He's the theology (John 5:39f)
    Biblical (2 Ti. 3:16)
    Zionist (Rm. 11:25-36)
    There is only one Commentary!
    (1 John 2:27; Rm. 8:9; Php. 1:19; Mt. 23:8)

    Salvation is Free (Eph. 2:8f) !!! It depends on his strength, not mine!!! (2 Co. 12:9)

    Stupid things Tet says...

    Quote Originally Posted by tetelestai View Post
    The old heavens and old earth was the law and the Old Covenant.

    The new heavens and new earth is the New Covenant.

  18. #43
    "That is why you Fail" Evil.Eye.<(I)>'s Avatar
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    Romans 6:14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace

    And now... bolster that with this...

    1 Corinthians 15:“Where, O death, is your victory?
    Where, O death, is your sting?”
    56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

    "Death"... "Sin"... "The Law"...

    The counter argued perspective is "Augmenting" clear context with extra biblical doctrine!

    Hebrews 2:14 e therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil,

    He didn't defeat Adams Sin... or Sin Nature... He beat the Devil!

    Death Incarnate. Sins Master... The abuser of God's perfection... "The Law" is God's alone and shows our distinction from GOD.

    We aren't like God and will never be! We could never save ourselves from the spiritual ruin of the Devil! Only Jesus Did and could!

    To relegate this to Law... obedience... and Nature is to deny that even the first human beings couldn't resist the deceiver!

    Wake UP!!!
    Last edited by Evil.Eye.<(I)>; August 14th, 2017 at 12:39 PM.
    Open (Beyond Time ...1 Ki. 8:27) Relational to us within Time (John 1:1)
    Dispensational (2 Ti. 2:15)
    It's All About Jesus and He's the theology (John 5:39f)
    Biblical (2 Ti. 3:16)
    Zionist (Rm. 11:25-36)
    There is only one Commentary!
    (1 John 2:27; Rm. 8:9; Php. 1:19; Mt. 23:8)

    Salvation is Free (Eph. 2:8f) !!! It depends on his strength, not mine!!! (2 Co. 12:9)

    Stupid things Tet says...

    Quote Originally Posted by tetelestai View Post
    The old heavens and old earth was the law and the Old Covenant.

    The new heavens and new earth is the New Covenant.

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    "That is why you Fail" Evil.Eye.<(I)>'s Avatar
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    Okay... @Lon

    At the very least... please take the following verses at face value and tell me how you work them into your understanding.

    1 Corinthians 15:54-56 ... Hebrews 2:14 ... John 12:31 and John 14:30 ... Romans 4:15 ... Romans 7:9 Galatians 3:19-25 ... Ezekiel 18:20 ... Romans 6:23
    Open (Beyond Time ...1 Ki. 8:27) Relational to us within Time (John 1:1)
    Dispensational (2 Ti. 2:15)
    It's All About Jesus and He's the theology (John 5:39f)
    Biblical (2 Ti. 3:16)
    Zionist (Rm. 11:25-36)
    There is only one Commentary!
    (1 John 2:27; Rm. 8:9; Php. 1:19; Mt. 23:8)

    Salvation is Free (Eph. 2:8f) !!! It depends on his strength, not mine!!! (2 Co. 12:9)

    Stupid things Tet says...

    Quote Originally Posted by tetelestai View Post
    The old heavens and old earth was the law and the Old Covenant.

    The new heavens and new earth is the New Covenant.

  20. #45
    TOL Subscriber Lon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evil.Eye.<(I)> View Post
    @Lon ... 2 Corinthians 11:13 But I am afraid that, even as the serpent beguiled Eve by his cunning, your minds may be corrupted and led away from the simplicity of [your sincere and] pure devotion to Christ.
    Me and every other Christian on the planet? You have to realize only you, a few others, and Mormons believe what you believe. Many or most, men and women of scripture. You can't scapegoat Augustine or Calvin or anybody. They all believe it from the Bible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Evil.Eye.<(I)> View Post
    Again... Adam and Eve were born into an unnatural world with the serpents rebellions. Nature of the world... Nature of Evil.

    Did or did not God permit Satan to choose evil?

    Did or did not God permit Adam and Eve to Choose?

    Does God permit us to Choose?

    I'm asking you... again and again to charge an infant and a fetus with the law.

    You are dodging all over the place! Does God condemn someone before they commit the offense in heart, mind or body?
    One verse the whole way: Ephesians 2:3
    Quote Originally Posted by Evil.Eye.<(I)> View Post
    Does 2nd Corinthians 5:19 bother you... if I'm right and it applies here? That's "kosmon"... in 2 Cor. 5:19 and goes far beyond local as it roots from "Kosmos" which is "Universe"!

    Before the foundation becomes globally effectual and shows that all are chosen upon birth.

    Why was Judas "Lost", though He was chosen?

    Your right engine just failed and your points are now showing as being "ripped from context"!
    "By nature" means 'their' nature, 'children' of 'wrath.' It is a fairly short sentence. You can't complicate it. "Nature around them" doesn't work. "Their (your, my, our) nature."
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

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