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Thread: Your Mount Rushmores (Sports, Music, Politics, etc.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Town Heretic View Post
    I can reluctantly move Woodson for Green, but I can't let go of Harris. He's my nod to that potent offense. I think Ben is their best qb, but Bradshaw has the hardware, so I limited the offense to one representative. Look at his tds and rushing yards in the SB. No, he's there. Woodson, with apologies to that legendary secondary production, will have to move to the Hon. Men. side of things for Joe.
    Mean Joe Green was the best player that the Steelers ever had so you made the right move.

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    Confederate Generals -

    Robert E. Lee
    Stonewall Jackson
    James Longstreet
    Nathan Bedford Forrest

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    Sun Records Recording Artists

    Elvis Presley
    Johnny Cash
    Jerry Lee Lewis
    Roy Orbison

    Roy Orbison was from Wink, Texas, not far from my hometown.

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    Quote Originally Posted by patrick jane View Post
    Confederate Generals -

    Robert E. Lee
    Stonewall Jackson
    James Longstreet
    Nathan Bedford Forrest
    Which has the added benefit of doubling for: "Most Widely Commemorated Losers."

    So that's a twofer right there.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Town Heretic View Post
    Every now and then we've taken cracks at the Mount Rushmore of one sport of the other and it's usually good fun, but I thought it might give the thread more legs if I opened it up a bit.

    I'm starting with baseball. Feel free to just list your picks and category, or to talk about why you made your picks. I think we need a few amiable threads where we can mull things without it turning into debate, though if anyone wants to defend their picks or differ, genially, I don't see the harm.

    MLB Mt. Rushmore:

    Babe Ruth: the original still chased decades after his bat went silent.
    Cy Young: 100 wins out in front of the runner up for best pitcher of all time.
    Ted Williams: the last man to hit .400 and one of the canniest hitters of any era. Won his last batting title at 39 years of age.
    Willie Mays: in my opinion, the greatest baseball player of all time. Amazing fielder with a live arm and a deadly bat.

    Hon. Men. : Hank Aaron, Jackie Robinson, DiMaggio, Robinson.

    You could really break this down into hitters and pitchers, and I might at some point.
    Hard to argue with that list. Mays is my favorite player and Babe is a no-brainer so if I swapped any out it'd be Williams and Cy Young.

    I might put Robinson in for the social progress aspect. Koufax is my favorite pitcher but I'm not sure he truly deserves to be on the Mount. His career was shortened by injury. Clemente is another honorable mention.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kmoney View Post
    Hard to argue with that list. Mays is my favorite player...
    Mickey Mantle was as good as Willie Mays in my opinion so I think that he should at least be on the Honorable Mention list. And I agree with you that Clemente should at least be on the same list.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Mickey Mantle was as good as Willie Mays in my opinion so I think that he should at least be on the Honorable Mention list. And I agree with you that Clemente should at least be on the same list.
    No disagreement with Mantle being on the Hon Men list. I could list some others for that as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kmoney View Post
    No disagreement with Mantle being on the Hon Men list. I could list some others for that as well.
    One player who certainly deserves to be on the Honorable Mention list is Stan the Man Musial. And perhaps Al Kaline.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kmoney View Post
    Hard to argue with that list. Mays is my favorite player and Babe is a no-brainer so if I swapped any out it'd be Williams and Cy Young.

    I might put Robinson in for the social progress aspect. Koufax is my favorite pitcher but I'm not sure he truly deserves to be on the Mount. His career was shortened by injury. Clemente is another honorable mention.
    I don't see how you can get rid of the best contact hitter in the history of the game and arguably its best pitcher. Baseball is probably the toughest sport to call. If I thought there were enough fans here I'd be interested in going team to team...I still might. We've already done the old Dodgers.

    Kofax was a fine pitcher. Three years with an ERA under 2???? Nothing wrong with having his card in your pocket.

    It usually takes about 5 great years to make a pitcher's lasting reputation. Some, like Johnson, manage that while having a longer, less impressive streak and some, like Martinez, have shorter but more potent (on average) careers. Here's a look at a few with a new stat thrown in (WAR) that's there for the heck of it.

    Young
    WAR (wins added to a team above what a replacement player adds): 168.5
    ERA: 2.63
    WHIP (balls on base + hits against innings pitched): 1.130

    ERA by Year
    3.5 +: 3 But never over 4 and to be fair the worst of that was when he was in his 40s.
    3.0 to 3.5: 6
    2.5 to 2.9: 4
    2.0 to 2.4: 3
    Under 2: 6
    Good to great years: 13

    Kofax
    WAR: 49
    ERA 2.76
    WHIP 1.106

    ERA by Year
    3.5+: 6
    3.0 to 3.5: 2
    2.5 to 2.9: 1
    2.0 to 2.4: 1
    Under 2: 3
    Good to great years: 5


    Gibson
    WAR 89.9
    ERA 2.91
    WHIP 1.188

    ERA by Year
    3.5+: 3
    3.0 to 3.5: 7
    2.5 to 2.9: 3
    2.0 to 2.4: 3
    Under 2: 1
    Good to great years: 7

    Nolan
    WAR 81.8
    ERA 3.19
    WHIP 1.247

    ERA by Year
    3.5+: 6
    3.0 to 3.5: 12
    2.5 to 2.9: 6
    2.0 to 2.4: 1
    Under 2: 1
    Good to great years: 8

    Clemmons
    WAR 140.3
    ERA 3.12
    WHIP 1.173

    ERA by Year
    3.5+: 9
    3.0 to 3.5: 3
    2.5 to 2.9: 6
    2.0 to 2.4: 4
    Under 2: 2
    Good to great years: 12

    Maddox
    WAR 106.9
    ERA 3.16
    WHIP 1.143

    ERA by Year
    3.5+: 7
    3.0 to 3.5: 7
    2.5 to 2.9: 3
    2.0 to 2.4: 4
    Under 2: 2
    Good to great years: 9

    Martinez

    WAR 84
    ERA 2.93
    WHIP 1.054

    ERA by Year
    3.5+: 5
    3.0 to 3.5: 2
    2.5 to 2.9: 4
    2.0 to 2.4: 5
    Under 2: 2
    Good to great years: 11

    Seaver
    WAR 110.5
    ERA 2.86
    WHIP 1.121

    ERA by Year
    3.5+: 4
    3.0 to 3.5: 5
    2.5 to 2.9: 7
    2.0 to 2.4: 5
    Under 2: 1
    Good to great years: 13

    Johnson
    WAR 102.1
    ERA 3.29
    WHIP 1,171

    ERA by Year
    3.5+: 12
    3.0 to 3.5: 3
    2.5 to 2.9: 1
    2.0 to 2.4: 6
    Under 2: 0
    Good to great years: 7
    You aren't what you eat, but you're always what you swallow.

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    Pitcher Fernando Valenzuela from Mexico had a few years when he was very, very good. Especially the eleven years when he pitched for the Dodgers.

    During those years he had an ERA of 3.31 and WHIP of 1.283.

    Is he worthy of being mentioned along with the great ones which you mentioned?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Pitcher Fernando Valenzuela from Mexico had a few years when he was very, very good. Especially the eleven years when he pitched for the Dodgers.

    During those years he had an ERA of 3.31 and WHIP of 1.283.

    Is he worthy of being mentioned along with the great ones which you mentioned?
    I don't think he was consistently good enough for long enough to be in the great's conversation. There are some I've left off though, like Feller, Vance, Schilling, Gooden, and Tanana. I'll come back to it at some point. I got tired.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Mickey Mantle was as good as Willie Mays in my opinion so I think that he should at least be on the Honorable Mention list. And I agree with you that Clemente should at least be on the same list.
    Mantle should have been close, but he drank away some of his skill and never really fulfilled his greatness, great as he was...no, he doesn't catch Mays.

    I'll do a hitter's list at some point. In the meantime:

    Mantel - Mays
    WAR 109.7 - 156.2
    BA .298 - .302
    OBP .421 - 384
    SLG .527 - .557
    OPS .977 - .941

    As a hitter it was close. But then you get to stolen bases (even if you take off the difference in years playing it's 2 to 1 for Mays) and fielding and Mays is just a good ways in front of Mantel. I think on most lists Mays is in the top 3 discussion and Mantel closer to the top 10.

    Mays...12 golden gloves (he'd have had more but they didn't give them out until 1957), all but two years of his career on the all star list, he's the Jordan of the NFL and if it wasn't for the talent Ruth demonstrated as a hitter and pitcher, Mays would be number one.

    Last edited by Town Heretic; August 19th, 2017 at 10:05 PM. Reason: 57 not 67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Town Heretic View Post
    Mantle should have been close, but he drank away some of his skill and never really fulfilled his greatness, great as he was...no, he doesn't catch Mays.
    Yea, but Mickey had more fun than the Say Hey Kid.

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    The Mount Rushmore of Early Rock & Roll:

    Chuck Berry
    Buddy Holly
    Elvis Presley
    Jerry Lee Lewis
    Last edited by Jerry Shugart; August 20th, 2017 at 07:34 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Town Heretic View Post
    I don't see how you can get rid of the best contact hitter in the history of the game and arguably its best pitcher. Baseball is probably the toughest sport to call. If I thought there were enough fans here I'd be interested in going team to team...I still might. We've already done the old Dodgers.

    Kofax was a fine pitcher. Three years with an ERA under 2???? Nothing wrong with having his card in your pocket.

    It usually takes about 5 great years to make a pitcher's lasting reputation. Some, like Johnson, manage that while having a longer, less impressive streak and some, like Martinez, have shorter but more potent (on average) careers. Here's a look at a few with a new stat thrown in (WAR) that's there for the heck of it.
    Interesting info. I'd also be curious about K/BB ratios. I sometimes forget how good Martinez was. Seaver is definitely one of the top.
    I was never a big Nolan fan but his 7 no-hitters is amazing. Probably will never be reached.

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