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  1. #76
    TOL Subscriber patrick jane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danoh View Post
    Fisherofmen?

    More like...A Fishy Story.

    Rom. 5:8
    Acts 17:11,12
    A fish stinks from the head down


  2. #77
    TOL Legend God's Truth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danoh View Post
    Both sides of this debate are off - the writer of Hebrews is referring to those who had tasted the witness the signs of Pentecost had been meant to be unto Israel (see Matt.10; Mark 16; Acts 2; Acts 3; Heb. 2; etc.) but that Israel had continued to reject said witness' intended result - Israel's repentance.

    Hebrews 3:7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, 3:8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: 3:9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. 3:10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. 3:11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.) 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; 3:15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation. 3:16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses. 3:17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? 3:18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? 3:19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

    Part of what throws throws off many is his use of the word "brethren."

    But note how that is used, say, in Acts 3 (and elsewhere, when Israel is being addressed)...

    Acts 3:14 But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you; 3:15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses. 3:16 And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all. 3:17 And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers. 3:18 But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled. 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

    Another issue is that the writer of Hebrews is addressing things from the perspective of an Israelite.

    Such often calls for including oneself in said addressing, as a member of that nation...

    As in the case of one of the greatest examples of faith in all of Scripture - the Israelite Prophet: Daniel - repeatedly, he includes himself In his nation's NATIONAL guilt.

    Daniel 9:2 In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem. 9:3 And I set my face unto the Lord God, to seek by prayer and supplications, with fasting, and sackcloth, and ashes: 9:4 And I prayed unto the LORD my God, and made my confession, and said, O Lord, the great and dreadful God, keeping the covenant and mercy to them that love him, and to them that keep his commandments; 9:5 We have sinned, and have committed iniquity, and have done wickedly, and have rebelled, even by departing from thy precepts and from thy judgments: 9:6 Neither have we hearkened unto thy servants the prophets, which spake in thy name to our kings, our princes, and our fathers, and to all the people of the land. 9:7 O LORD, righteousness belongeth unto thee, but unto us confusion of faces, as at this day; to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and unto all Israel, that are near, and that are far off, through all the countries whither thou hast driven them, because of their trespass that they have trespassed against thee. 9:8 O Lord, to us belongeth confusion of face, to our kings, to our princes, and to our fathers, because we have sinned against thee. 9:9 To the Lord our God belong mercies and forgivenesses, though we have rebelled against him; 9:10 Neither have we obeyed the voice of the LORD our God, to walk in his laws, which he set before us by his servants the prophets. 9:11 Yea, all Israel have transgressed thy law, even by departing, that they might not obey thy voice; therefore the curse is poured upon us, and the oath that is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, because we have sinned against him. 9:12 And he hath confirmed his words, which he spake against us, and against our judges that judged us, by bringing upon us a great evil: for under the whole heaven hath not been done as hath been done upon Jerusalem. 9:13 As it is written in the law of Moses, all this evil is come upon us: yet made we not our prayer before the LORD our God, that we might turn from our iniquities, and understand thy truth. 9:14 Therefore hath the LORD watched upon the evil, and brought it upon us: for the LORD our God is righteous in all his works which he doeth: for we obeyed not his voice. 9:15 And now, O Lord our God, that hast brought thy people forth out of the land of Egypt with a mighty hand, and hast gotten thee renown, as at this day; we have sinned, we have done wickedly. 9:16 O LORD, according to all thy righteousness, I beseech thee, let thine anger and thy fury be turned away from thy city Jerusalem, thy holy mountain: because for our sins, and for the iniquities of our fathers, Jerusalem and thy people are become a reproach to all that are about us. 9:17 Now therefore, O our God, hear the prayer of thy servant, and his supplications, and cause thy face to shine upon thy sanctuary that is desolate, for the Lord's sake. 9:18 O my God, incline thine ear, and hear; open thine eyes, and behold our desolations, and the city which is called by thy name: for we do not present our supplications before thee for our righteousnesses, but for thy great mercies. 9:19 O Lord, hear; O Lord, forgive; O Lord, hearken and do; defer not, for thine own sake, O my God: for thy city and thy people are called by thy name.

    Also, o never mind, lol

    Rom. 5:8
    Acts 17:11,12
    The scripture is explaining that once a Jew has come to Jesus to be saved, and has experience the gift of the Holy Spirit and all the powerful miracles that went on during that time...then to go back to Judaism, then, to try again to come back to Christ.
    Oh how I love the Word of God!

    Do not just read the word do it.

  3. #78
    TOL Legend God's Truth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fisherofmen View Post
    And why would God give a number? Would you stop doing good works at that point? What kind of person demands a number from God? No man is assured of salvation while he is on this earth. St. Paul says...

    Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but much more now in my absence,) with fear and trembling work out your salvation. (Phil. 2:12)

    For I am not conscious to myself of any thing, yet am I not hereby justified; but he that judgeth me, is the Lord. (1 Cor. 4:4)

    Are you working out your salvation?

    Charge the rich of this world not to be highminded, nor to trust in the uncertainty of riches, but in the living God, (who giveth us abundantly all things to enjoy,) [18] To do good, to be rich in good works, to give easily, to communicate to others, [19] To lay up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on the true life. (1 Tim. 6:17-19)

    For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels: and then will he render to every man according to his works.(Mat. 16:27)

    But according to thy hardness and impenitent heart, thou treasurest up to thyself wrath, against the day of wrath, and revelation of the just judgment of God. Who will render to every man according to his works. (Rom. 2:5-6)

    Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers be transformed as the ministers of justice, whose end shall be according to their works. (2 Cor 11:15)

    And I saw the dead, great and small, standing in the presence of the throne, and the books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged by those things which were written in the books, according to their works. [13] And the sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and hell gave up their dead that were in them; and they were judged every one according to their works. [14] And hell and death were cast into the pool of fire. This is the second death. [15] And whosoever was not found written in the book of life, was cast into the pool of fire. (Rev. 20:12-15)

    FAITH ALONE IS HERESY. GRACE, FAITH AND GOOD WORKS (NOT WORKS OF THE MOSAIC LAW) ARE ALL NECESSARY FOR SALVATION.
    We have to be one after God's own heart, we have to do what He says to do. See Acts 13:22.
    Oh how I love the Word of God!

    Do not just read the word do it.

  4. #79
    TOL Legend God's Truth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fisherofmen View Post
    Try going back and reading what I posted. You obviously ignored the post. Good works (alone) do not save a person. Only good works with the true faith, and proceeding from the grace of God. That same obedient and righteous One says that salvation comes through obeying the commandments...

    And behold one came and said to him: Good master, what good shall I do that I may have life everlasting? [17] Who said to him: Why asketh thou me concerning good? One is good, God. But if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.(Matt 19:16-17)

    If He is obedient and righteous then why do you not listen to Him?



    I never said I could be righteous without Him. I said grace, faith and good works were all needed for salvation. Did you hear that Tambora. I included grace and placed it first. It is possible, however, to be unrighteous by disobeying Him and not doing good works. This is exactly what you are doing, by saying that there is no need to keep the commandments and do good works for salvation.



    The only one who needs a "hint" hear is you Tambora. In fact you need a wake up call. You are deliberately ignoring all the verses that say good works are needed to advance your heresy. You also ignore the direct words of Jesus who says salvation comes through keeping the commandments. So who is changing Scripture. BY ALL MEANS IT IS YOU. To you and those like you Jesus says...

    And why call you me, Lord, Lord; and do not the things which I say? (Luke 6:46)
    We have to obey Jesus to get saved, and to stay saved.
    Oh how I love the Word of God!

    Do not just read the word do it.

  5. #80
    TOL Legend God's Truth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tambora View Post
    Still trying to make it say two instead one.
    Shame shame.


    Romans 5:18-19 KJV
    (18) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.(19) For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.



    There is never ever a shameful time to obey God.
    Oh how I love the Word of God!

    Do not just read the word do it.

  6. #81
    TOL Legend God's Truth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tambora View Post
    Here's some more for ya.
    Pay close attention.

    Romans 4 KJV
    (4) Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
    (5) But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
    (6) Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
    (7) Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
    (8) Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
    That is about not having to do any ceremonial works.
    Oh how I love the Word of God!

    Do not just read the word do it.

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by patrick jane View Post
    A fish stinks from the head down

    So funny! LOL
    Oh how I love the Word of God!

    Do not just read the word do it.

  8. #83
    TOL Subscriber glorydaz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fisherofmen View Post
    Wonder not, brethren, if the world hate you. [14] We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not, abideth in death. [15] Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer. And you know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in himself. (1 John 3:13-15)

    Loving one's brother is a good work. Remember St. Paul said...

    And if I should have prophecy and should know all mysteries, and all knowledge, and if I should have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. (1 Cor 13:2)

    Jesus said...

    Amen, amen I say unto you, that he who heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath life everlasting; and cometh not into judgment, but is passed from death to life. (John 5:24)

    Do you hear the word of Jesus...

    And behold one came and said to him: Good master, what good shall I do that I may have life everlasting? [17] Who said to him: Why asketh thou me concerning good? One is good, God. But if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. (Matt. 19:16-17)
    Oh, lookie here. We have a dude stuck on the wrong side of the fence again.....the law side!!!! Didn't anyone explain to him why Christ died on the cross? Does he know that our Lord rose from the dead?

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    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    There is never ever a shameful time to obey God.
    Nobody says it is.

    Romans 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

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  12. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tambora View Post
    Only one has.
    You deny it is by the righteousness and obedience of one, and still try to add two in there.
    Shame shame.

    Here it is again for the naysayers:


    Romans 5 KJV
    (18) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
    (19) For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.


    Pay close attention.
    ONE
    No matter which way you try to twist the Scriptures you are still in heresy. THOSE WHO ARE MADE RIGHTEOUS ARE SO BECAUSE THEY OBEY THE ONE WHO WAS FIRST RIGHTEOUS (JESUS). Are you paying close attention?

    Now pay close attention and read the following...

    o faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself. [18] But some man will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without works; and I will shew thee, by works, my faith. [19] Thou believest that there is one God. Thou dost well: the devils also believe and tremble. [20] But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? (James 2:17-20)

    Do you see o foolish one that faith without works is dead? Now pay close attention to the following...

    [21] Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar? [22] Seest thou, that faith did co-operate with his works; and by works faith was made perfect? [23] And the scripture was fulfilled, saying: Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him to justice, and he was called the friend of God. [24] Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only? (James 2:21-24)

    Do you see that man is justified by works and not faith only?

    Now pay really close attention, and read slowly, because...

    It is possible to have faith without works, even a faith that moves mountains. (1 Cor 13:2) If one does not have good works along with his faith he is NOT justified. Hence the obedience of ONE does not avail to his own righteousness because he did not (himself) obey the OBEDIENT ONE (JESUS). Get it? Those who have the true faith, but do not do good works are not made righteous and are not part of the MANY. Read closely now, Not 2, but MANY.
    Last edited by Fisherofmen; August 14th, 2017 at 08:26 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    Oh, lookie here. We have a dude stuck on the wrong side of the fence again.....the law side!!!! Didn't anyone explain to him why Christ died on the cross? Does he know that our Lord rose from the dead?
    Does anyone here recall me saying that one cannot be saved by obeying the Mosaic Law? None of this refutes me. I always take it as a compliment when a heretic such as yourself tells me I'm on the wrong side of the fence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    So funny! LOL
    Heretics stink all over. But from the neck up especially.

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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    Nobody says it is.

    Romans 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
    So since there is never a wrong time to obey God, why do you go against the teaching of believe and obey?
    Oh how I love the Word of God!

    Do not just read the word do it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fisherofmen View Post
    Heretics stink all over. But from the neck up especially.
    How about from the heart up?
    Oh how I love the Word of God!

    Do not just read the word do it.

  18. #90
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    Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in DEPARTING FROM THE LIVING GOD.
    3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called today; LEST ANY OF YOU BE HARDENED, through the deceitfulness of sin.
    3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, IF we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;


    Doctrinally, what can we reasonably glean or draw from the above verses? Well, in my fallible opinion and that's all I can offer (as well as everybody on this forum..Fallible opinions.), the above verses suggest that whoever the writer is referring to are "part of God", partakers of God, one with Him in Messiah. You can't depart from what you were never part of. They are warned to "take heed", they don't fall into unbelief, and depart from the living God they're obviously part of.

    In the following verses, the writer goes on to say, that the brethren should exhort each other daily... (...this implies that they're in a position to do that and indeed, many of the believers in the 1st century, lived together, in closely knit communities. Some of them even held all of their possessions in common, as it states in Acts 2:42-47, hence they were in close proximity to each other, every day, sharing their lives with each other in such a way, that they could exhort each other daily. )...lest their hearts become hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For (because) we are made partakers of Messiah if (provided that), we hold (maintain), our first love / the beginning of our confidence, till the end of our earthly lives.

    Rev 2:4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
    Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
    Rev 2:6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.
    Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

    Those that, hold the beginning of their confidence/their first love, and do not harden their hearts through the deceitfulness of sin, will not fall, losing their eternal inheritance. These are the overcomers, those that walk with Christ, zealously, consistently, till the very end of their earthly lives. One can reasonably assume from the above verses, that, the writer of Hebrews was directing his words, his warning, admonition, at the Hebrew believers/believing Jews of his day, perhaps of a particular community, like the one in Jerusalem.

    The elect, those that are actually saved, are the overcomers, who maintain their first love/beginning of their confidence/zeal for Jesus Christ, till the very end.

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