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    TOL Subscriber glorydaz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jamie View Post
    We are not called to rest, but to serve.

    We will be rewarded according to our works not how rested we are.
    Works done while not resting in Him are dead works.

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    Over 4000 post club oatmeal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by User Name View Post
    If God created the earth and the universe with "the appearance of age", then what is the "apparent age" of the earth and the universe?
    So where does scripture say "God created the earth and the universe with "the appearance of age"
    "And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship and in breaking of bread and in prayers." Acts 2:42

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    Quote Originally Posted by oatmeal View Post
    So where does scripture say "God created the earth and the universe with "the appearance of age"
    It doesn't but it is hard to reconcile the fundamentalist need for the universe to be 6000 or so years old with its real age.

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    I dont' know about appearance of age, but the prevailing view I find of Biblical scientists is that the whole system was working from day 1, completely functioning. That might appear to have age--at least enough to be 'mature' or 'full grown.'

    To avoid uniformitarian confusion, we are talking about a situation in which God can speak the thing(s) into existence as needed, in the form needed. We are not talking about processes of life to get to that point. This is not unique to the Bible. There are other creation accounts in which the god merely speaks and something takes shape or form. In one, the Suquamish of Washington state, it is the speaking of the god that also changes the status of people and animal. At first he allowed them to 'form-change' between humans and animals and plants, but they deceived eachother and harmed each other doing so. So he confined them to one form. He did this verbally, by fiat. So the name of the god in their creation account is 'the form-changer.'

    Since we are not talking about uniformitarian processes, all proposals are on the table. In the case of the Bible, the record is that he spoke things into existence in full function, reproducing from the very first moment, it seems.

    The idea they would happenstance develop on their own in to the complexity needed to actually work is ridiculous, unprovable, and there are countless examples, such as the exact temperature needed to keep whale sperm warm enough to actually work. Their testicles had to be heated exactly right the very first time.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    I dont' know about appearance of age, but the prevailing view I find of Biblical scientists is that the whole system was working from day 1, completely functioning. That might appear to have age--at least enough to be 'mature' or 'full grown.'

    To avoid uniformitarian confusion, we are talking about a situation in which God can speak the thing(s) into existence as needed, in the form needed. We are not talking about processes of life to get to that point. This is not unique to the Bible. There are other creation accounts in which the god merely speaks and something takes shape or form. In one, the Suquamish of Washington state, it is the speaking of the god that also changes the status of people and animal. At first he allowed them to 'form-change' between humans and animals and plants, but they deceived eachother and harmed each other doing so. So he confined them to one form. He did this verbally, by fiat. So the name of the god in their creation account is 'the form-changer.'

    Since we are not talking about uniformitarian processes, all proposals are on the table. In the case of the Bible, the record is that he spoke things into existence in full function, reproducing from the very first moment, it seems.

    The idea they would happenstance develop on their own in to the complexity needed to actually work is ridiculous, unprovable, and there are countless examples, such as the exact temperature needed to keep whale sperm warm enough to actually work. Their testicles had to be heated exactly right the very first time.
    Interesting, you use other myths to support your particular favorite mythical account.

    At the very least the universe appears to be 13+ billions of years old, despite your objection it appears to have developed naturally (yep I know, hard to believe, hard to understand---like health care---complicated). So to shrug off the question of whether your deity created it just a few thousand years ago in a manner that wound up looking old is to ignore a basic philosophical/theological question---Why? What's the point?

    And what is the exact temperature to keep whale sperm warm enough? Citation, please, thanks.

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    Over 4000 post club oatmeal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonahdog View Post
    It doesn't but it is hard to reconcile the fundamentalist need for the universe to be 6000 or so years old with its real age.
    Well here are some more questions for those particular fundamentalists that you speak of:

    Well, where does the scripture say that God created the heaven and earth 6000 years ago?

    Does God who is good and perfect do things that are sloppy and mangled?

    Does God do things that are "without form and void"?

    How did the heaven and earth that God created become without form and void?

    How long was it without form and void?

    How long before that did it exist in the pristine condition that God created them in?

    If God created the heaven and earth without form and void why did he improve on it? Couldn't he do it right the first time?
    "And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship and in breaking of bread and in prayers." Acts 2:42

    "Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind" Philippians 2:2

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    Quote Originally Posted by oatmeal View Post
    So where does scripture say "God created the earth and the universe with "the appearance of age"
    Obviously when God created Adam he didn't start with a release ovum and a haploid sperm cell to produce a zygote and develop it into a fetus, etc. He created Adam as a full-grown adult of a certain apparent age--let us say, perhaps 25. This estimate is just a guess as to Adam's apparent age when he was created, but if he could have been examined using the tools of modern science, the estimate could be reasonably close to accurate. Adam would "appear" to be 25 years old, even though he had just been created. Likewise, the earth and the universe as a whole was also created in a mature state, of a certain "apparent" age--the ages of which could be reasonably estimated using legitimate scientific methods.
    Last edited by User Name; July 29th, 2017 at 11:15 AM.

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    Over 4000 post club Nihilo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by User Name View Post
    Obviously when God created Adam he didn't start with a release ovum and a haploid sperm cell to produce a zygote and develop it into a fetus, etc. He created Adam as a full-grown adult of a certain apparent age--let us say, perhaps 25. This estimate is just a guess as to Adam's apparent age when he was created, but if he could have been examined using the tools of modern science, the estimate could be reasonably close to accurate. Adam would "appear" to be 25 years old, even though he was just created--but his "apparent age" could legitimately be called 25. Likewise, the earth and the universe as a whole was also created in a mature state, of a certain age, the ages of which could be reasonably estimated using legitimate scientific methods.
    That's the idea.
    THE LORD JESUS CHRIST IS RISEN. Matthew 28:6 (KJV) Mark 16:6 (KJV) Luke 24:6 (KJV)

    Romans 10:9 (KJV) 1st Corinthians 15:14 (KJV)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    Do you mean 6000 since Noah's cataclysm and about 1700 before that? Interesting (because of 1700 from creation to cataclysm in Genesis and Mayan records), but not satisfactory about ... ice cores.
    You are right there. The earth is at least 800,000 years old, by the counting of the annual layers in the ice.

    Here are eleven such annual layers from Greenland:



    Stuart

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    Over 4000 post club Nihilo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stuu View Post
    You are right there. The earth is at least 800,000 years old, by the counting of the annual layers in the ice.

    Here are eleven such annual layers from Greenland:



    Stuart
    How many annual layers were there in Adam and Eve in early Genesis? Zero? Or 25?
    THE LORD JESUS CHRIST IS RISEN. Matthew 28:6 (KJV) Mark 16:6 (KJV) Luke 24:6 (KJV)

    Romans 10:9 (KJV) 1st Corinthians 15:14 (KJV)

    Trevor: "I know how to drive, man."
    Ricky: "You also know how to be stupid."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nihilo View Post
    How many annual layers were there in Adam and Eve in early Genesis? Zero? Or 25?
    I'm not really sure what you mean by Adam and Eve and 'early Genesis'. How long ago are you claiming that?

    Let's give it 3,000 years, back to the invention of Judaism.

    That means there are another 797,000 annual layers before then. I'm rounding off a bit there.

    Stuart

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    Black Rifles Matter Nick M's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CherubRam View Post
    I am trying to find out if those words could be plural: "Evening and Morning"

    Perhaps you could find out?
    Moses used those words because they mean exactly what we think they mean. Exodus 20. God created everything in six days, and on the seventh, he rested.
    Jesus saves completely. http://www.climatedepot.com/ http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

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    Black Rifles Matter Nick M's Avatar
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    3 Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day.
    Jesus saves completely. http://www.climatedepot.com/ http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

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    For there are many insubordinate, both idle talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, whose mouths must be stopped

    Ephesians 5

    11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them. 12 For it is shameful even to speak of those things which are done by them in secret

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    Over 1000 post club way 2 go's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oatmeal View Post

    How long was it without form and void?
    1 rotation of the earth = 1 day

    day one earth and light without form

    day two and three gave form to the earth
    Gen 1:6-13

    day four form to the light
    Gen 1:14 -19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick M View Post
    Moses used those words because they mean exactly what we think they mean. Exodus 20. God created everything in six days, and on the seventh, he rested.
    God said to Adam, "for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die;" but yet Adam continued to live for hundreds of years until he finally died. An epoch of time.

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