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Thread: Jewish magic or mystical Kabbalah practices

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    Quote Originally Posted by beameup View Post
    I think you need to research the Assyrian records that coincide with the evangelism of Jonah, and see what part this incident played in delaying the total destruction of Judah, and what part the "sparing of Nineveh" played in the eventual downfall of the Assyrian Empire.
    My point, which you have ignored, is that sacrifice did not play a part in the repentance of teh people of Ninveh.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chair View Post
    My point, which you have ignored, is that sacrifice did not play a part in the repentance of teh people of Ninveh.
    Neither did "salvation". Blood sacrifice was for cleansing (of sin), which equaled salvation (albeit "temporary"). This was performed in Jerusalem.
    The Ninevites "repented" (not sure what they were up to), and the City of Nineveh was "spared" from pending destruction, that's all. No "conversion" to Judaism.

    "Permanent Salvation" could only be obtained by a "Permanent (ie: eternal) Sacrifice"... then the "Temporary Sacrifices" could be done away with.
    Last edited by beameup; September 13th, 2017 at 05:14 AM.

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    OT tora forbids magic or the sorts

    Deuteronomy 18:10-13

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    Quote Originally Posted by beameup View Post
    Neither did "salvation". Blood sacrifice was for cleansing (of sin), which equaled salvation (albeit "temporary"). This was performed in Jerusalem.
    The Ninevites "repented" (not sure what they were up to), and the City of Nineveh was "spared" from pending destruction, that's all. No "conversion" to Judaism.

    "Permanent Salvation" could only be obtained by a "Permanent (ie: eternal) Sacrifice"... then the "Temporary Sacrifices" could be done away with.
    Apparently what I write and you read are two different things. I never suggested that Ninveh converted to Judaism. Nor did I suggest that everybody ought to become Jewish.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Epoisses View Post
    You can never be justified or made righteous or saved by keeping the law. This is the lesson you never learned. When Jesus walked the earth the harlots and thieves and liars all thronged about him because they knew this better than the Pharisees or law keepers. The harlots, thieves and liars are in a better state than you because they do not trust in themselves or their works of righteousness. This is all elementary to the born-again Christian but it is an enigma to the Jew who thinks he is righteous by the flesh. If you haven't figured it out in 2000 years it's not going to happen.
    The law isn't the law to be 'saved, or attain salvation'. Rather it's just the (eternal) law, simple examples; incest, violence. These things are abominations regardless wether a person believes or he doesn't.

    Maybe you can say the law doesnt make a person righteous but you can say anyone who trespasses it certainly does unrighteousness. Maybe not black and white like that but to a certain degree

    You forget Jesus was a scholar and teacher of the Torah himself. He kept Torah since a child, example; obediance to his parents. When Jesus spoke on/to (specific) pharisees he speaks that they dont keep the Torah, being clean on the outside but dirty on the inside (parable). (Leviticus 19:17) or (Leviticus 26:41) for example proves that they who called to murder Jesus didnt keep Torah

    The ten commandments is Torah and it almost includes all of the commandments in the Torah by default. Maybe the dietary laws are different(nontheless law); Noah was allowed to eat of every cattle. And second Jesus also pronounced all meats clean.

    I guess my point is (really) keeping the Torah is also to be humble and upright in heart

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    Quote Originally Posted by the589 View Post
    The law isn't the law to be 'saved, or attain salvation'. Rather it's just the (eternal) law, simple examples; incest, violence. These things are abominations regardless wether a person believes or he doesn't.

    Maybe you can say the law doesnt make a person righteous but you can say anyone who trespasses it certainly does unrighteousness. Maybe not black and white like that but to a certain degree

    You forget Jesus was a scholar and teacher of the Torah himself. He kept Torah since a child, example; obediance to his parents. When Jesus spoke on/to (specific) pharisees he speaks that they dont keep the Torah, being clean on the outside but dirty on the inside (parable). (Leviticus 19:17) or (Leviticus 26:41) for example proves that they who called to murder Jesus didnt keep Torah

    The ten commandments is Torah and it almost includes all of the commandments in the Torah by default. Maybe the dietary laws are different(nontheless law); Noah was allowed to eat of every cattle. And second Jesus also pronounced all meats clean.

    I guess my point is (really) keeping the Torah is also to be humble and upright in heart
    Law-based religions are found everywhere not just in Judaism. The monk or nun will say the works and vows that I do and keep will please God and he will save me. The Jew will say if I am diligent to follow all the commands in the Torah God will regard them and I will be saved. The Muslim will say that if I keep all the commands in the Koran and perform ritual prayer and pilgrimage God will save me. The eastern Mystic will try to reach Nirvana by meditation and performing karma which is another term for good deeds. It's all works/law-based religion. Judaism is just one of many.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Epoisses View Post
    .. The Jew will say if I am diligent to follow all the commands in the Torah God will regard them and I will be saved. ....
    Again, the Jew doesn't say that. Being "saved" is a a Christian concept, which you are projecting on other religions and cultures.

    The Jew will say: "I will follow God's law because that is what He asked me to do." Or, in some cases: "I will do this, because that is what Jews do."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Epoisses View Post
    Law-based religions are found everywhere not just in Judaism. The monk or nun will say the works and vows that I do and keep will please God and he will save me. The Jew will say if I am diligent to follow all the commands in the Torah God will regard them and I will be saved. The Muslim will say that if I keep all the commands in the Koran and perform ritual prayer and pilgrimage God will save me. The eastern Mystic will try to reach Nirvana by meditation and performing karma which is another term for good deeds. It's all works/law-based religion. Judaism is just one of many.
    It is where (need for) forgiveness comes in. The concept of (doing) right or evil which we are all bestowed with we know when we do good, wrong or evil. We know when we do evil or wrong we lose favor with whatever is 'good' (for me that ultimate authority is G-d). Here is where in Christianity the son of G-d is sent to the world as messiah for the Earth to preach repentance of sin and forgiveness, and it is by faith and grace to (once) be forgiven. I think in the core it doesnt vary at all regardless of the many religions because even the OT, NT even Islam, even Buddhism or Hinduism and even for the atheist. That you repent (turn away) from doing evil and start doing/seeking the good, that you will live. Ezekiel 14:6, 2 Chronicles 7:14. (NT) Matthew 3:2

    Even an atheist will say there is redemption for a person if he turns his ways.

    That is (the eternal) law. I can go in depth with OT to explain that G-d (absolutely) hates evil and loves the good and upright and righteous. And to give it a more Christian twist all evil is sin and all sin is evil.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chair View Post
    Again, the Jew doesn't say that. Being "saved" is a a Christian concept, which you are projecting on other religions and cultures.

    The Jew will say: "I will follow God's law because that is what He asked me to do." Or, in some cases: "I will do this, because that is what Jews do."
    ...as if you speak for all Jews. My wife is Jewish and her grandfather was a Rabbi so you're not the only one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by the589 View Post
    It is where (need for) forgiveness comes in. The concept of (doing) right or evil which we are all bestowed with we know when we do good, wrong or evil. We know when we do evil or wrong we lose favor with whatever is 'good' (for me that ultimate authority is G-d). Here is where in Christianity the son of G-d is sent to the world as messiah for the Earth to preach repentance of sin and forgiveness, and it is by faith and grace to (once) be forgiven. I think in the core it doesnt vary at all regardless of the many religions because even the OT, NT even Islam, even Buddhism or Hinduism and even for the atheist. That you repent (turn away) from doing evil and start doing/seeking the good, that you will live. Ezekiel 14:6, 2 Chronicles 7:14. (NT) Matthew 3:2

    Even an atheist will say there is redemption for a person if he turns his ways.

    That is (the eternal) law. I can go in depth with OT to explain that G-d (absolutely) hates evil and loves the good and upright and righteous. And to give it a more Christian twist all evil is sin and all sin is evil.
    You haven't really addressed my post at all. The Torah is obsolete and only had a place before Christ and the gospel. Turning from sin as you say is just performing some good deeds which is just more sin. Real repentance for sin is understanding that everything we do good and bad is sin in the eyes of God.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Epoisses View Post
    You haven't really addressed my post at all. The Torah is obsolete and only had a place before Christ and the gospel. Turning from sin as you say is just performing some good deeds which is just more sin. Real repentance for sin is understanding that everything we do good and bad is sin in the eyes of God.
    By that you're also saying the 10 commandments are obsolete which are torah? Even the law(s) Christ gave to the gentiles are (more complete) torah (like Mark 12:31). Then there's verses like 1 John 3:4, and multiple verses such as Romans 3:31. But by NT standards you're a judge of the law and the people that keep the law as obsolete; James 4:11

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    Quote Originally Posted by the589 View Post
    By that you're also saying the 10 commandments are obsolete which are torah? Even the law(s) Christ gave to the gentiles are (more complete) torah (like Mark 12:31). Then there's verses like 1 John 3:4, and multiple verses such as Romans 3:31. But by NT standards you're a judge of the law and the people that keep the law as obsolete; James 4:11
    The ten commandments are for unbelievers who do not have faith, grace or love. They need the reward/punishment system so they can coexist with other unbelievers. God holds believers to a much higher standard than the ten commandments. Jesus said if you have hate or lust in your heart you are breaking the law before you even do anything. Did you know that God's law is broken in the mind or heart before it is ever broken in the life?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Epoisses View Post
    The ten commandments are for unbelievers who do not have faith, grace or love. They need the reward/punishment system so they can coexist with other unbelievers. God holds believers to a much higher standard than the ten commandments. Jesus said if you have hate or lust in your heart you are breaking the law before you even do anything. Did you know that God's law is broken in the mind or heart before it is ever broken in the life?
    You just said the law was obsolete, so by what standard do you break the law if the law is obsolete? Obviously if the torah is obsolete there is no standard of law to uphold right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by the589 View Post
    You just said the law was obsolete, so by what standard do you break the law if the law is obsolete? Obviously if the torah is obsolete there is no standard of law to uphold right?
    God's love is the standard which hate and lust would be a violation of.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Epoisses View Post
    God's love is the standard which hate and lust would be a violation of.
    So what is the standard?

    Matthew 5:17-19
    Psalm 111:7-8

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