User Tag List

Page 3 of 7 FirstFirst 123456 ... LastLast
Results 31 to 45 of 98

Thread: Was the man Jesus God before He was Glorified . . .

  1. #31
    TOL Legend Cross Reference's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    North Carolina
    Posts
    9,359
    Thanks
    120
    Thanked 589 Times in 537 Posts

    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    84660
    Quote Originally Posted by nikolai_42 View Post
    Yes. In Creation, the Word brought light into being. In the Advent, the Word was actually made flesh.

    Re John 1:1 was written after all the facts were in.
    "That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;" Philippians 2:15 (KJV)

  2. #32
    TOL Legend Cross Reference's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    North Carolina
    Posts
    9,359
    Thanks
    120
    Thanked 589 Times in 537 Posts

    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    84660
    Quote Originally Posted by nikolai_42 View Post
    Yes. In Creation, the Word brought light into being. In the Advent, the Word was actually made flesh.
    You might want to consider that upon the new birth is the "Word made flesh" deposited in that one but in measure. . . a relationship to be "worked out in fear and trembling".
    "That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;" Philippians 2:15 (KJV)

  3. #33
    TOL Legend Cross Reference's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    North Carolina
    Posts
    9,359
    Thanks
    120
    Thanked 589 Times in 537 Posts

    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    84660
    Quote Originally Posted by Cross Reference View Post
    In that day of God's choosing will Jesus become the complete Godhead in glorified Human form. God said that, not me.
    No, God did not say that.
    Paul said this about Jesus:

    Colossians 2:9
    9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
    Written after all the facts were in.

    Paul said this about believers:

    1 Corinthians 3:16
    16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
    Written to all born again believers after ALL the facts were in.

    Having the Holy Spirit dwelling in you does not make you the Holy Spirit.
    But it does make one "born again" per John 1:12 KJV.

    Neither does Jesus having the fullness of divinity dwelling in Him make Him God.
    At what time of His life are you referring to?
    "That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;" Philippians 2:15 (KJV)

  4. #34
    Over 6000 post club genuineoriginal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    On a sea of glass mixed with fire in front of a throne.
    Posts
    6,850
    Thanks
    312
    Thanked 488 Times in 372 Posts

    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    446253
    Quote Originally Posted by nikolai_42 View Post
    Yes. In Creation, the Word brought light into being. In the Advent, the Word was actually made flesh.
    In Genesis 1-2, God's spoken Word became light, but God formed man from the dust of the earth.
    In John 1, God's spoken Word became flesh in the form of the Son of God.
    The spoken Word that became flesh is recorded here:

    Psalm 2:7
    7 I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

    Learn to read what is written.

    _____
    The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
    ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

  5. #35
    Over 6000 post club genuineoriginal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    On a sea of glass mixed with fire in front of a throne.
    Posts
    6,850
    Thanks
    312
    Thanked 488 Times in 372 Posts

    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    446253
    Quote Originally Posted by Cross Reference View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    Neither does Jesus having the fullness of divinity dwelling in Him make Him God.
    At what time of His life are you referring to?
    At what time in eternity do you consider Jesus became God?

    Do you consider "God" to be the name of a type of being, where multiple beings of the same type are "gods"?
    Or do you consider that "God" is a singular being who is the only representative of the "God" type in all eternity?
    Learn to read what is written.

    _____
    The people who are supposed to be experts and who claim to understand the science are precisely the people who are blind to the evidence.
    ~ Dr Freeman Dyson

  6. #36
    TOL Legend Cross Reference's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    North Carolina
    Posts
    9,359
    Thanks
    120
    Thanked 589 Times in 537 Posts

    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    84660
    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    "At what time in eternity do you consider Jesus became God? Do you consider "God" to be the name of a type of being, where multiple beings of the same type are "gods"?
    Or do you consider that "God" is a singular being who is the only representative of the "God" type in all eternity?".
    __________________________________________________ _______

    I am open for adjustment in my attempt at explaining this, what I believe I see. An attempt is all it can be. Please feel free:

    Your question is ambiguous at best especially when all else fails if our understanding Jesus as being, "Uncaused LOVE" in Flesh and Blood is not considered. cf John 1:1 KJV. His eternal conception making His origin just that, eternal. Jesus Christ was, "I AM LOVE" Who entered Adam's race from the outside in the "fullness of time".

    Love was before all things. Though motivations for believing may differ, LOVE is singular and remains so. So when we say Jesus is God both in His flesh and in His Spirit, I believe we cover all the bases when pondering the record of Him for our lives as our example IF we sort things out in that light, i.e., LOVE is a Person. LOVE is God. "When" can now be understood to be a nonsequitor if we see LOVE from the beginning and later in Flesh and Blood and not being altered/affected by the circumstances in which "He" found "Himself" when the proving of Jesus whose testimony of God FROM Himself was made manifest sans the Presence of God. There was no compromise in Jesus. Jesus' "proven victory" sans God won Him the Glory of His Father which secured Him to the foreknowledge of Him "when", in the beginning of all things He was the "Word of God", the "Word of Himself"; the LOVE which came down to a dying world.

    The "Son of Man" is coming again in "clouds of Glory". Mark 13:26 KJV. In that day Jesus will not be "Son of God" but, God in Glorified Human Flesh as purposed by Him from Himself FROM the beginning! This will be the fulfilling of "His Pleasure" for having created Adam. In the most fullness of time will Jesus answer to the Name, "Everlasting Father throughout eternity"
    Last edited by Cross Reference; July 16th, 2017 at 07:15 AM.
    "That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;" Philippians 2:15 (KJV)

  7. #37
    TOL Subscriber nikolai_42's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    1,464
    Thanks
    72
    Thanked 584 Times in 366 Posts

    Blog Entries
    4
    Mentioned
    35 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    362051
    Quote Originally Posted by Cross Reference View Post
    You might want to consider that upon the new birth is the "Word made flesh" deposited in that one but in measure. . . a relationship to be "worked out in fear and trembling".
    It was never said of Jesus Christ that He was God's epistle - His letter to men. But that is what Paul says of those who are His.

    Do we begin again to commend ourselves? or need we, as some others, epistles of commendation to you, or letters of commendation from you?
    Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:
    Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
    And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:
    Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
    Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

    2 Cor 3:1-6

    It is certain that those who are His have His Spirit. And that is reiterated more fully here :

    To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
    Colossians 1:27

    Christ in you certainly speaks of the Holy Spirit and of the Son. But one is the testimony of the other in the sense that Jesus Christ is at the right hand of the Father making intercession for us (Romans 8:34 and Hebrews 7:25). But that does not negate Him being in us. Just as He prayed to the Father :

    That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
    And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
    I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

    John 17:21-23

    And as close a relationship as Jesus here delineates (the Father in the Son and the Son in the Father and the disciples all being one in both of them) there is still - as in the Godhead - not an indication that one IS the other. We may bear the Word of God, we may bear the Spirit of God, but it is never said that we ARE that word made flesh. You say that of us, you necessarly collapse the Godhead into Unitarianism (or some variant thereof) and the distinctions in John 17 (and elsewhere) lose their clarity.
    If God promises life, He slayeth first; when He builds, He casteth all down first. God is no patcher; He cannot build on another's foundation. - William Tyndale

    The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
    Jeremiah 17:9

    Who is among you that feareth the Lord, that obeyeth the voice of his servant, that walketh in darkness, and hath no light? let him trust in the name of the Lord, and stay upon his God.
    Behold, all ye that kindle a fire, that compass yourselves about with sparks: walk in the light of your fire, and in the sparks that ye have kindled. This shall ye have of mine hand; ye shall lie down in sorrow.

    Isaiah 50:10-11

  8. #38
    TOL Subscriber nikolai_42's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    1,464
    Thanks
    72
    Thanked 584 Times in 366 Posts

    Blog Entries
    4
    Mentioned
    35 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    362051
    Quote Originally Posted by genuineoriginal View Post
    In Genesis 1-2, God's spoken Word became light, but God formed man from the dust of the earth.
    In John 1, God's spoken Word became flesh in the form of the Son of God.
    The spoken Word that became flesh is recorded here:

    Psalm 2:7
    7 I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
    If that is true, then God's spoken word IS God. God's Word IS God. We should, then, worship the scriptures, right?
    If God promises life, He slayeth first; when He builds, He casteth all down first. God is no patcher; He cannot build on another's foundation. - William Tyndale

    The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
    Jeremiah 17:9

    Who is among you that feareth the Lord, that obeyeth the voice of his servant, that walketh in darkness, and hath no light? let him trust in the name of the Lord, and stay upon his God.
    Behold, all ye that kindle a fire, that compass yourselves about with sparks: walk in the light of your fire, and in the sparks that ye have kindled. This shall ye have of mine hand; ye shall lie down in sorrow.

    Isaiah 50:10-11

  9. #39
    TOL Legend Cross Reference's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    North Carolina
    Posts
    9,359
    Thanks
    120
    Thanked 589 Times in 537 Posts

    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    84660
    [QUOTE=nikolai_42;5064384]
    It was never said of Jesus Christ that He was God's epistle - His letter to men.
    But we, [me anyway] believe He was from the context given us in both the OT.


    And as close a relationship as Jesus here delineates (the Father in the Son and the Son in the Father and the disciples all being one in both of them) there is still - as in the Godhead - not an indication that one IS the other. We may bear the Word of God, we may bear the Spirit of God, but it is never said that we ARE that word made flesh. You say that of us, you necessarly collapse the Godhead into Unitarianism (or some variant thereof) and the distinctions in John 17 (and elsewhere) lose their clarity
    .

    If we have His Spirit, we belong to Him. And to whatever degree we honor it are we given His LIFE. Too bad you don't seem to grasp that arrangement.
    "That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;" Philippians 2:15 (KJV)

  10. #40
    TOL Legend Cross Reference's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    North Carolina
    Posts
    9,359
    Thanks
    120
    Thanked 589 Times in 537 Posts

    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    84660
    Quote Originally Posted by nikolai_42 View Post
    If that is true, then God's spoken word IS God. God's Word IS God. We should, then, worship the scriptures, right?
    What's your problem? Why the sarcastic ending line?
    "That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;" Philippians 2:15 (KJV)

  11. #41
    TOL Subscriber nikolai_42's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    1,464
    Thanks
    72
    Thanked 584 Times in 366 Posts

    Blog Entries
    4
    Mentioned
    35 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    362051
    [QUOTE=Cross Reference;5064388]
    Quote Originally Posted by nikolai_42 View Post

    But we, [me anyway] believe He was from the context given us in both the OT.



    If we have His Spirit, we belong to Him. And to whatever degree we honor it are we given His LIFE. Too bad you don't seem to grasp that arrangement.
    That's not what I was militating against.
    If God promises life, He slayeth first; when He builds, He casteth all down first. God is no patcher; He cannot build on another's foundation. - William Tyndale

    The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
    Jeremiah 17:9

    Who is among you that feareth the Lord, that obeyeth the voice of his servant, that walketh in darkness, and hath no light? let him trust in the name of the Lord, and stay upon his God.
    Behold, all ye that kindle a fire, that compass yourselves about with sparks: walk in the light of your fire, and in the sparks that ye have kindled. This shall ye have of mine hand; ye shall lie down in sorrow.

    Isaiah 50:10-11

  12. #42
    TOL Subscriber nikolai_42's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    1,464
    Thanks
    72
    Thanked 584 Times in 366 Posts

    Blog Entries
    4
    Mentioned
    35 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    362051
    Quote Originally Posted by Cross Reference View Post
    What's your problem? Why the sarcastic ending line?
    Not sarcastic, just extending the logic of the line of thought out to it's conclusion. We certainly use the word of God in worship - but it is not IT that we worship. Man was formed by the Word. Jesus actually was the Word - and the Word was God..
    If God promises life, He slayeth first; when He builds, He casteth all down first. God is no patcher; He cannot build on another's foundation. - William Tyndale

    The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
    Jeremiah 17:9

    Who is among you that feareth the Lord, that obeyeth the voice of his servant, that walketh in darkness, and hath no light? let him trust in the name of the Lord, and stay upon his God.
    Behold, all ye that kindle a fire, that compass yourselves about with sparks: walk in the light of your fire, and in the sparks that ye have kindled. This shall ye have of mine hand; ye shall lie down in sorrow.

    Isaiah 50:10-11

  13. #43
    TOL Legend Clete's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Seated in the heavenly places at God's right hand, in Him!
    Posts
    7,694
    Thanks
    186
    Thanked 2,360 Times in 1,560 Posts

    Mentioned
    14 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    1433014
    Quote Originally Posted by Cross Reference View Post
    . . . . . . or was His humanity simply speaking from a divine disposition?

    I sincerely ask without a religious agenda.
    The first chapter of John is I think as clear on this as can be but my bet is you were aware of John chapter one before asking this question and so it seems that biblical arguments aren't going to cut it so let me answer your question with a question....

    If it was not God who died for our sins, by what standard of justice would that death have paid the sin debt of more than one other person?

    Your question really strikes at the very core of the Christian faith. The Bible flatly states that Jesus was God in the beginning and that He became flesh and dwelt among us. (John 1) and in addition to that, we know that God is just and that, therefore, it had to be God who died for our sins because the death of a mere man could only pay the debt of no more than one other man. And that is presuming that the man who died was perfectly innocent which we know (also from Scripture) it is impossible for a mere man to be. Thus, if you get the answer to your question wrong, you undermine, not only the plainly stated truth of the Bible but of justice and God's own righteousness itself and thereby the veracity of the whole of Christianity.

    The direct answer to your question then is an emphatic, "YES!". Jesus is not a man who became God, He is the eternally existent God who became a man. A change, by the way, that was permanent. He is still a man to this day and will remain one from now on. So much for the classical doctrine of Immutability.

    Resting in Him,
    Clete
    Last edited by Clete; July 17th, 2017 at 11:46 AM.
    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

  14. The Following User Says Thank You to Clete For Your Post:

    jsanford108 (July 17th, 2017)

  15. #44
    TOL Legend Clete's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    Seated in the heavenly places at God's right hand, in Him!
    Posts
    7,694
    Thanks
    186
    Thanked 2,360 Times in 1,560 Posts

    Mentioned
    14 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    1433014
    Quote Originally Posted by nikolai_42 View Post
    Not sarcastic, just extending the logic of the line of thought out to it's conclusion. We certainly use the word of God in worship - but it is not IT that we worship. Man was formed by the Word. Jesus actually was the Word - and the Word was God..
    The word in John translated "Word" is Logos. The meaning of the word is identical to what we mean by 'rational discourse" or "reason" or "logic". Indeed, the English word "logic" is derived from the Greek word "logos". One wonders why the tranlsators are afraid to use the nearly perfect English equivalent! In any case, the use of the phrase "the Word" in John is NOT referencing the bible. It is saying that Jesus is the incarnation of Logic.

    The first several verses of John would be more accurately rendered in English as follows...

    John 1:1 In the beginning was Logic, and Logic was with God, and Logic was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

    14 And Logic became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

    Now, that will sound weird and foreign to you but that is very much closer to what the passage is saying than what you get from reading the King James (or any other modern English translation for that matter). The ideas conveyed in that rendering are what would have been in the minds of the first-century readers of John Gospel. It was a rather common idea at the time and John uses it intentionally.

    Resting in Him,
    Clete

    P.S. The idea expressed in this post is not original to me. It's as old as the hills and even people who I otherwise disagree with almost entirely (doctrinally speaking) understand and acknowledge that Logos = Logic. See the linked article below for a thorough treatment of the subject that was written by a Clavinist of all things....

    God and Logic Gordon H. Clark (One time Chairman of the Dept. of Philosophy, Butler University)
    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

  16. The Following User Says Thank You to Clete For Your Post:

    genuineoriginal (July 20th, 2017)

  17. #45
    Over 2000 post club Zeke's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Posts
    2,016
    Thanks
    110
    Thanked 280 Times in 255 Posts

    Blog Entries
    2
    Mentioned
    6 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    127404
    Quote Originally Posted by nikolai_42 View Post
    It was never said of Jesus Christ that He was God's epistle - His letter to men. But that is what Paul says of those who are His.

    Do we begin again to commend ourselves? or need we, as some others, epistles of commendation to you, or letters of commendation from you?
    Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:
    Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
    And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:
    Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
    Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

    2 Cor 3:1-6

    It is certain that those who are His have His Spirit. And that is reiterated more fully here :

    To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
    Colossians 1:27

    Christ in you certainly speaks of the Holy Spirit and of the Son. But one is the testimony of the other in the sense that Jesus Christ is at the right hand of the Father making intercession for us (Romans 8:34 and Hebrews 7:25). But that does not negate Him being in us. Just as He prayed to the Father :

    That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
    And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
    I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

    John 17:21-23

    And as close a relationship as Jesus here delineates (the Father in the Son and the Son in the Father and the disciples all being one in both of them) there is still - as in the Godhead - not an indication that one IS the other. We may bear the Word of God, we may bear the Spirit of God, but it is never said that we ARE that word made flesh. You say that of us, you necessarly collapse the Godhead into Unitarianism (or some variant thereof) and the distinctions in John 17 (and elsewhere) lose their clarity.
    It certainly does include everyone born of woman, the word made flesh dwells in us Acts 17:24 1Cor 3:16, and among Acts 17:28-29 seeing everyone we meet has that same indwelling Seed that fell/scattered and slept/died in the heart/soil of all men, ignorant 2Tim 2:13 that they have Divine amnesia Galatians 4:1, when we awake to who we are Divine Seed Luke 15:17, Divine love 1Cor 13:1-13 draws us back to are rightful position as a heir Galatians 4:28 not a dead religious slave born of secularism/intellectual doctrines of exclusive worship, professing themselves to be wise in the letter that killeth etc... Galatians 4:24, Matt 11:11 over powered by following observation of this world instead of Luke 15:32, John 4:24, Luke 17:20-21, John 18:36.
    Trying to awaken the divine principle in the belly of the fish.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
About us
Since 1997 TheologyOnline (TOL) has been one of the most popular theology forums on the internet. On TOL we encourage spirited conversation about religion, politics, and just about everything else.

follow us