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  1. #46
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    I want to add something that sorta combines what GD said in post #43 and what I said in post #44.

    It has to do with that word "new" again.
    It is the same word used for new wine and new wineskins.
    Now we know that wine and wineskins were nothing new, there had been other wine and other wineskins.
    But they were not the same wine and same wineskins.
    The "new" was the fresh, pristine, good wine; and the "new" was the wineskins that were pristine and flawless (would not let any wine leak out).

    This "new" creation that is the BOC does not mean that GOD never made another chosen group for a special purpose (as the BOC is).

    God Bless America

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tambora View Post
    Something else about the "new creation" is that the Greek word for "new" here is one that denotes condition and not age (although it is usually always about something that is new in age also, such as a brand new car.
    The condition it denotes is pristine, without flaw.

    With that in mind, think about this .....
    One can be kicked out of the kingdom. (Not pristine and without flaw if some dirt needs to be removed.)
    One cannot be kicked out the BOC. (Pristine and without flaw, therefore nothing needs removing.)
    It has to be because we not only have the seal of the Spirit dwelling in us Eph. 1:13, but we have been created IN CHRIST JESUS. Eph. 2:10

    We are literally hid with Christ in God. I love the promise in this verse.

    Colossians 3:2-4
    Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

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  5. #48
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    Believing Jesus is the Son of God isn't the same as believing he raised from the dead, do you think?
    Before Paul was even converted on the day of Pentecost Peter preached the death and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ:

    "Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses"
    (Acts 2:30-32).

    Besides that, when the Jews heard the Lord Jesus say that He is the Son of God what did they think He was telling them?

    Thanks!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Before Paul was even converted on the day of Pentecost Peter preached the death and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ:

    "Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses"
    (Acts 2:30-32).

    Besides that, when the Jews heard the Lord Jesus say that He is the Son of God what did they think He was telling them?

    Thanks!
    Yeah, that's true, but it was that He would sit on the throne...not that we would be justified by faith in His resurrection.

    Romans 4:25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

    Please don't think I'm arguing with you, Jerry. I totally respect your view. I'm just trying to get a full understanding on the why of it all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tambora View Post
    I think your dilemma will boil down to one question .......
    If believing Paul's gospel automatically places you in the BOC,
    then if Peter believed Paul's gospel at any time, he should automatically be in the BOC.
    Makes sense to me.



    If he did believe Paul's gospel, but still was not automatically placed in the BOC,
    then you've got to come up with an explanation of what is was that kept him out of the BOC.
    I'm stuck. I have no explanation and would like someone to spell out the explanation.

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  11. #51
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    I'm just trying to get a full understanding on the why of it all.
    Let us examine when I think that the Body of Christ began by first looking at this verse:

    "Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come" (Mt.12:31-32).

    In The Berean Searchlight Win Johnson wrote:

    "These words of warning came from the lips of the Son of God while He walked among men in His earthly ministry. They were addressed to the religious leaders of the nation Israel. Their blasphemy against Him even when He hung on the Cross was forgiven by the Father in answer to the prayer, 'Father forgive them, for they know not what they do' (Luke 23:34).

    "But when at Pentecost, Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, announced the return of Messiah on the condition of Israel's national repentance, these leaders instigated a persecution that reached its climax in the stoning of Stephen, a godly man, 'full of the Holy Ghost' (Acts 7:54-60). It was here that the 'unpardonable sin' was committed by Israel's leaders. The Third Person of the Trinity had been blasphemed and His pleadings through the Apostles ignored. This sin will never be forgiven"
    (Win Johnson, "The Unpardonable Sin," The Berean Searchlight, Feb.2001, p.6).

    The "unpardonable sin" was committed at Acts 7, and I believe that at that point in time national Israel was temporarily set aside. I believe that at that time the Holy Spirit baptized all believers into the Church, which is His Body.

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  13. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    Maybe God has other plans for some....such as Peter. John 14:2

    Matthew 19:28
    And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
    Thank you Warrior Woman. I'm not gettin much help at home. A certain someone keeps telling me to study it out myself. I hated that maneuver as a kid. Mom, what does this word mean? Go look it up in the dictionary. There I was trying to be all efficient by saving time and she wants me to lollygag around. Parents can sure mess up a kid's ambition.

    What is the regeneration cited? Using my handy dandy esword program the regeneration shows up in Titus. Titus 3:5 KJV
    (5) Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;


    I'll copy paste what esword says the word means.
    G3824
    παλιγγενεσία
    paliggenesia
    Thayer Definition:
    1) new birth, reproduction, renewal, recreation, regeneration
    1a) hence renovation, regeneration, the production of a new life consecrated to God, a radical change of mind for the better. The word often used to denote the restoration of a thing to its pristine state, its renovation, as a renewal or restoration of life after death
    1b) the renovation of the earth after the deluge
    1c) the renewal of the world to take place after its destruction by fire, as the Stoics taught
    1d) the signal and glorious change of all things (in heaven and earth) for the better, that restoration of the primal and perfect condition of things which existed before the fall of our first parents, which the Jews looked for in connection with the advent of the Messiah, and which Christians expected in connection with the visible return of Jesus from heaven.
    1e) other uses
    1e1) of Cicero’s restoration to rank and fortune on his recall from exile
    1e2) of the restoration of the Jewish nation after exile
    1e3) of the recovery of knowledge by recollection
    Part of Speech: noun feminine
    A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G3825 and G1078
    Citing in TDNT: 1:686, 117


    Sweet Jesus which of those is for Matthew and which is for Titus? I'm still stuck.

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  15. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tambora View Post
    I want to add something that sorta combines what GD said in post #43 and what I said in post #44.

    It has to do with that word "new" again.
    It is the same word used for new wine and new wineskins.
    Now we know that wine and wineskins were nothing new, there had been other wine and other wineskins.
    But they were not the same wine and same wineskins.
    The "new" was the fresh, pristine, good wine; and the "new" was the wineskins that were pristine and flawless (would not let any wine leak out).

    This "new" creation that is the BOC does not mean that GOD never made another chosen group for a special purpose (as the BOC is).
    You may have flipped a switch in my brain. The Lord creates Israel for an assignment to follow him one way and creates another faction to follow him a another way. Both ways are pleasing to the Lord. A Jew could be saved either way and a gentile could be saved either way? My switch just went off again. Why 2 ways if 1 way is sufficient?

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  17. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Let us examine when I think that the Body of Christ began by first looking at this verse:

    "Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come" (Mt.12:31-32).

    In The Berean Searchlight Win Johnson wrote:

    "These words of warning came from the lips of the Son of God while He walked among men in His earthly ministry. They were addressed to the religious leaders of the nation Israel. Their blasphemy against Him even when He hung on the Cross was forgiven by the Father in answer to the prayer, 'Father forgive them, for they know not what they do' (Luke 23:34).

    "But when at Pentecost, Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, announced the return of Messiah on the condition of Israel's national repentance, these leaders instigated a persecution that reached its climax in the stoning of Stephen, a godly man, 'full of the Holy Ghost' (Acts 7:54-60). It was here that the 'unpardonable sin' was committed by Israel's leaders. The Third Person of the Trinity had been blasphemed and His pleadings through the Apostles ignored. This sin will never be forgiven"
    (Win Johnson, "The Unpardonable Sin," The Berean Searchlight, Feb.2001, p.6).

    The "unpardonable sin" was committed at Acts 7, and I believe that at that point in time national Israel was temporarily set aside. I believe that at that time the Holy Spirit baptized all believers into the Church, which is His Body.
    This part here (This sin will never be forgiven). I thought Paul was among that crowd. Am i mistaken? Please don't tell me to go look it up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    Well, if there will be some one earth and some in heaven....looks like there might be a difference.

    John 14:1-3
    Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
    This is going right over my head. I'm dumber than I thought. Who gets to live in those mansions the boc or Israel? Hold my horses, there are many mansions instead of a single mansion because _____ (I'm drawing a blank again). I'm beginning to understand why so many want to blend it all together as one faction of believers that all get the same thing the same way as one puzzle box with one picture.

    I need a beer.

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  21. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Let us examine when I think that the Body of Christ began by first looking at this verse:

    "Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come" (Mt.12:31-32).

    In The Berean Searchlight Win Johnson wrote:

    "These words of warning came from the lips of the Son of God while He walked among men in His earthly ministry. They were addressed to the religious leaders of the nation Israel. Their blasphemy against Him even when He hung on the Cross was forgiven by the Father in answer to the prayer, 'Father forgive them, for they know not what they do' (Luke 23:34).

    "But when at Pentecost, Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, announced the return of Messiah on the condition of Israel's national repentance, these leaders instigated a persecution that reached its climax in the stoning of Stephen, a godly man, 'full of the Holy Ghost' (Acts 7:54-60). It was here that the 'unpardonable sin' was committed by Israel's leaders. The Third Person of the Trinity had been blasphemed and His pleadings through the Apostles ignored. This sin will never be forgiven"
    (Win Johnson, "The Unpardonable Sin," The Berean Searchlight, Feb.2001, p.6).

    The "unpardonable sin" was committed at Acts 7, and I believe that at that point in time national Israel was temporarily set aside. I believe that at that time the Holy Spirit baptized all believers into the Church, which is His Body.
    Which brings up the question of whether the Holy Spirit falling upon them is the same as the Holy Spirit baptising us into the body of Christ.

    Acts 8:14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: 15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: 16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) 17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

    I understand the blasphemy of the Spirit is resisting Him...which even the children of Israel did in the wilderness. If that makes being retroactively placed into the body of Christ, then I can certainly see why you have posted what you have concerning salvation in the past. It's more the traditional idea, I'm thinking.

    Well, I'm certainly going to consider this. Thanks, Jerry, for taking the time.

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  23. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    Which brings up the question of whether the Holy Spirit falling upon them is the same as the Holy Spirit baptising us into the body of Christ.
    No, at Acts 2 no one was baptized into the Body of Christ. I do not think that the Body of Christ began on the day of Pentecost. And I do not think that Paul was the first person who was baptized into the Body of Christ (Ro.16:7).

    Therefore, I believe that it started when Israel was temporarily set aside at Acts 7. And that allowed a change in status in regard to the LORD's special people. As long as the nation of Israel remained in covenant relationship with the LORD those people were the special people:

    "For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth"
    (Deut.7:6).

    During the church age the only special people of the LORD are those in the body of Christ and in the Body these is no difference between the Jew and the Greek:

    "For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus" (Gal.3:27-28).

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  25. #58
    TOL Subscriber glorydaz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoneStar View Post
    Thank you Warrior Woman. I'm not gettin much help at home. A certain someone keeps telling me to study it out myself. I hated that maneuver as a kid. Mom, what does this word mean? Go look it up in the dictionary. There I was trying to be all efficient by saving time and she wants me to lollygag around. Parents can sure mess up a kid's ambition.
    I think they believe we won't argue if we come up with it ourselves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LoneStar View Post
    This is going right over my head. I'm dumber than I thought. Who gets to live in those mansions the boc or Israel? Hold my horses, there are many mansions instead of a single mansion because _____ (I'm drawing a blank again). I'm beginning to understand why so many want to blend it all together as one faction of believers that all get the same thing the same way as one puzzle box with one picture.

    I need a beer.
    Personally, I don't think it's referring to actual "mansions", but places. For instance, the Apostles will sit on 12 thrones and rule over someone on earth...during the millenium (perhaps), while the members of the body will be in heaven. I'm not sure we're meant to know...nor can we even imagine what God has in store for those who love Him. I think about when Paul went up to the "third heaven" and was shown many things he couldn't talk about. What was that all about?

    Truth be told....you are far from being alone in having these things go "over" you head. Even those who think they know, only see through a glass darkly. We are talking the spiritual realm, after all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LoneStar View Post
    This part here (This sin will never be forgiven). I thought Paul was among that crowd. Am i mistaken? Please don't tell me to go look it up.
    Good point.

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