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Thread: can ya help a brother out

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by patrick jane View Post
    But weren't some people saved before DBR?
    Yes.
    But not into the BOC.
    The BOC is an entirely new creation, not an upgrade or an add-on for those already saved.

    We don't tell our children fairy tales so that they will know that monsters exist.
    They already know monsters exist.
    We tell our children fairy tales so that they will know that monsters can be killed.

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  3. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tambora View Post
    Yes.
    But not into the BOC.
    The BOC is an entirely new creation, not an upgrade or an add-on for those already saved.
    When did the BOC start?

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  5. #33
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    That is one reason it seems silly for some to say the BOC has always been and every believer since the beginning is in the BOC.
    If that were true, it would not be a new creation.

    We don't tell our children fairy tales so that they will know that monsters exist.
    They already know monsters exist.
    We tell our children fairy tales so that they will know that monsters can be killed.

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  7. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by patrick jane View Post
    When did the BOC start?
    In my estimation it started with Paul.
    Paul started preaching salvation through faith without works, through the fall of Israel.
    No one was preaching that before Paul.
    If they had been already preaching that, then there was literally no need for Paul at all.

    We don't tell our children fairy tales so that they will know that monsters exist.
    They already know monsters exist.
    We tell our children fairy tales so that they will know that monsters can be killed.

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  9. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Of course they are not the same thing. But you did not address my point that this is what Paul told all those that in every place who call on the name of Jesus Christ:

    "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit"
    (1 Cor.12:13).

    From this can we not understand that when Paul wrote those words all of the saved were baptized into the Body of Christ? And would that not include the Jews who received Peter's epistles:

    "Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot" (1 Pet.1:18-19).
    Now you're really going to make me think, aren't ya?

    I think there is a difference. Yes, there were Jews and Gentiles who believed the Gospel and were saved by grace through faith. And yet there are a lot of people who were saved before the Holy Spirit came to dwell in the believer (the Comforter). They had no Comforter in the OT, but the Spirit came and went (was with, but did not indwell).

    Peter speaks of being "redeemed" by the blood of the Lamb, but does he preach justification by faith tied in to the resurrection?

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  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoneStar View Post
    If Paul had met a Jew that believed Peter's gospel but hadn't heard Paul's gospel, would Paul try to convert him to his gospel by saying you don't have the correct gospel for this dispensation, or would he say you know enough so don't fret it? Does it have anything to do with Paul saying he would not build on another's foundation? This all makes me scratch my head.
    I think your dilemma will boil down to one question .......
    If believing Paul's gospel automatically places you in the BOC,
    then if Peter believed Paul's gospel at any time, he should automatically be in the BOC.
    If he did believe Paul's gospel, but still was not automatically placed in the BOC,
    then you've got to come up with an explanation of what is was that kept him out of the BOC.

    We don't tell our children fairy tales so that they will know that monsters exist.
    They already know monsters exist.
    We tell our children fairy tales so that they will know that monsters can be killed.

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  13. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sherman View Post
    Patrick Jane had made a post with strange formatting and links that had somehow gotten corrupted. I removed the post and the post quoting it. The thread how works.
    Shoulda known it was PJ's fault.

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  15. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Was not the "gospel" of which Peter speaks of in the following passage the same gospel which declares thatbelievers are redeemed by the blood of the Lord Jesus?:

    "Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; 19. But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot...Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God...And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you" (1 Pet.1:18-19,23-25).

    Are not Peter's words "this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you" referring to the gospel that these believers were redeemed by the blood of the Lamb?
    I have a question for you, Jerry. I notice Peter talks about the priesthood (which Paul doesn't, does he?).

    Don't you think it's one of the differences from being a member of the body of Christ?

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  17. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoneStar View Post
    If Paul had met a Jew that believed Peter's gospel but hadn't heard Paul's gospel, would Paul try to convert him to his gospel by saying you don't have the correct gospel for this dispensation, or would he say you know enough so don't fret it? Does it have anything to do with Paul saying he would not build on another's foundation? This all makes me scratch my head.
    I agree. Getting down to the real nitty-gritty here, aren't we?

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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    Now you're really going to make me think, aren't ya?

    I think there is a difference. Yes, there were Jews and Gentiles who believed the Gospel and were saved by grace through faith. And yet there are a lot of people who were saved before the Holy Spirit came to dwell in the believer (the Comforter). They had no Comforter in the OT, but the Spirit came and went (was with, but did not indwell).

    Peter speaks of being "redeemed" by the blood of the Lamb, but does he preach justification by faith tied in to the resurrection?
    Well, I'll give ya something else to think about.

    Notice the following about the OT saints on their way to Canaan from their captivity in Egypt (the exodus).

    1 Corinthians 10:1-5 KJV
    (1) Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
    (2) And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
    (3) And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
    (4) And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

    ALL had the same.
    But wait, it continues ...

    (5) But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.



    You can get the spiritual drink, the living water, from Christ, and be baptized, and still be rejected.
    That cannot be said of the BOC.

    We don't tell our children fairy tales so that they will know that monsters exist.
    They already know monsters exist.
    We tell our children fairy tales so that they will know that monsters can be killed.

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  21. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by patrick jane View Post
    But weren't some people saved before DBR?
    Not exactly an answer to your question, PJ, but I've always found this text quite interesting when discussing this.

    Acts 17:30-31
    And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

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  23. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tambora View Post
    Yes.
    But not into the BOC.
    The BOC is an entirely new creation, not an upgrade or an add-on for those already saved.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tambora View Post
    In my estimation it started with Paul.
    Paul started preaching salvation through faith without works, through the fall of Israel.
    No one was preaching that before Paul.
    If they had been already preaching that, then there was literally no need for Paul at all.
    As usual, Tam, makes excellent points.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tambora View Post
    I think your dilemma will boil down to one question .......
    If believing Paul's gospel automatically places you in the BOC,
    then if Peter believed Paul's gospel at any time, he should automatically be in the BOC.
    If he did believe Paul's gospel, but still was not automatically placed in the BOC,
    then you've got to come up with an explanation of what is was that kept him out of the BOC.
    Maybe God has other plans for some....such as Peter. John 14:2

    Matthew 19:28
    And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

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  27. #44
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    Something else about the "new creation" is that the Greek word for "new" here is one that denotes condition and not age (although it is usually always about something that is new in age also, such as a brand new car.
    The condition it denotes is pristine, without flaw.

    With that in mind, think about this .....
    One can be kicked out of the kingdom. (Not pristine and without flaw if some dirt needs to be removed.)
    One cannot be kicked out the BOC. (Pristine and without flaw, therefore nothing needs removing.)

    We don't tell our children fairy tales so that they will know that monsters exist.
    They already know monsters exist.
    We tell our children fairy tales so that they will know that monsters can be killed.

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  29. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    Maybe God has other plans for some....such as Peter. John 14:2
    Matthew 19:28
    And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
    I'm so glad you posted that!!!!
    @LoneStar
    Be sure and take a look at this.

    We don't tell our children fairy tales so that they will know that monsters exist.
    They already know monsters exist.
    We tell our children fairy tales so that they will know that monsters can be killed.

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