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Thread: Fueing the Fire for the Anti-Semites

  1. #16
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    It may be that almost all who are followers of Christian Zionism are in the church world, and it is a fact that in the evangelical denominations a huge percentage of church members are Christian Zionists.

    And so, for most in the church world, Christian Zionism, because it is followed by a vast majority of people in the evangelical churches, cannot have characteristics of a cult.

    Walter Martin in his book Kingdom of the Cults does not list dispensationalism as a religious cult. But - what he says can be applied to dispensationalism.

    Wartin says "It is most significant that those who have written
    on the cults have only recently stressed the
    authority of the Scriptures as a criterion for measuring
    either the truth or falsity of cultic claims."

    Teaching doctrines that do not agree with some scripture is a characteristic of a religious cult.

    Martin says "The biblical perspective, where false teachers and
    false teachings are concerned, is that we are to
    have compassion and love for those who are enmeshed in the teachings of the false prophets, but we are
    to vigorously oppose the teachings, with our primary objective
    the winning of the soul and not so much
    the argument."

    Martin hits on an important point in saying that those who oppose the teachings of the Christian religious cults should not focus mainly on winning the argument. The cult people, on the other hand focus on winning the argument by use of various tactics of the dialectic. Romans 1: 28-29 lists several traits of people who engage in behavior there said to result from God giving them over to. One of these traits is quarreling.

    Martin goes on to say "Through the
    manipulation of terminology, it is therefore obvious th
    at the cultist has the Christian at a distinct
    disadvantage, particularly in the realm of the gr
    eat fundamental doctrines of biblical theology. The
    question is, then, how can the interested Christian solve that problem, if indeed it can be solved at all?
    In short, is there some common denominator that one
    can use when faced with a
    cultist of any particular
    variety, and, if so, how does one put this principle into practice?
    The cults capitalize on the almost total inability of the average Christian to understand the subtle art
    of redefinition in the realm of biblical theology. "

    "On encountering a cultist, then, always remember that you are dealing with a person who is familiar
    with Christian terminology, and who has carefully redefined
    it to fit the system of thought he or she
    now embraces."

    "The well-trained cultist will carefully avoid definition
    of terms concerning cardinal doctrines
    such as the Trinity, the deity of Christ, the Atonement, the bodily resurrection of our Lord, the process
    of salvation by grace and justification by faith. If pressed
    in these areas, he will redefine the terms to fit
    the semantic framework of orthodoxy unless he is forced to define his terms explicitly."

    Could it be that in a quarrel some Christian Zionists will carefully avoid defining their theology and carefully avoid defining their interpretation of certain key scriptures?

    Martin says "...cultic belief systems are characterized by genuine antagonism on a personal level since
    the cultist almost always identifies his dislike of
    the Christian message with the messenger who holds
    such opposing beliefs. "

    He hit the nail on the head here.

    "The identification of opposing beliefs with the individual
    in the framework of antagonism leads the
    cultist almost always to reject the individual as well
    as the belief, a problem closely linked with closed-
    mindedness and one that is extremely difficult to deal with in general dialogue with cultists."

    The Christian who defends the whole counsel of God should not make use of the same mindset and tactics of the Christian Zionist in attacking individuals but should refrain from doing so.

    There is much more in Martin's book which can be applied to Christian Zionism and its followers.

    http://www.eindtijdinbeeld.nl/EiB-Bi...lterMartin.pdf

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Almost all the people I have come across with your beliefs in the last several years no longer believe the Bible.
    And any Baptist is Dispensational in many an aspect within their basic frame of reference.

    northwye remains...clueless...to the obvious.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    The apostles 'reign' over the kingdom now. they are its foundation, Rev 21. We are grounded/founded on their docs. The kingdom started in Christ. The power was conferred at Pentecost. That is all there is to know about the kingdom, not your confused monarchy wishes which mean firing up Judaism all over again.

    This is not theoretical. Get to work in God's mission and kingdom and then you will know it is NOW. Pray, ask for God to work and grow your various ministries. Stop the doctrinaire games.


    Matthew 10:23 (KJV)
    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    They can't compete with a real writer and grammar scholar
    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    You're too literal to get it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    The New Covenant preceded the Old Covenant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Almost all the people I have come across with your beliefs in the last several years no longer believe the Bible.



    40 years for me Jerry, and going strong.

    When I heard a sermon on the sermon of Acts 13 for the first time, after being a "Christian" for 10 years, I knew I had never really heard the Bible speak for itself. It was always people trying to make the Bible speak certain things over and over.
    All Lives Matter --Marcus Sanford, youtube.com

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    LIFETIME MEMBER steko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by northwye View Post
    It may be that almost all who are followers of Christian Zionism are in the church world, and it is a fact that in the evangelical denominations a huge percentage of church members are Christian Zionists.

    And so, for most in the church world, Christian Zionism, because it is followed by a vast majority of people in the evangelical churches, cannot have characteristics of a cult.

    Walter Martin in his book Kingdom of the Cults does not list dispensationalism as a religious cult. But - what he says can be applied to dispensationalism.

    Wartin says "It is most significant that those who have written
    on the cults have only recently stressed the
    authority of the Scriptures as a criterion for measuring
    either the truth or falsity of cultic claims."

    Teaching doctrines that do not agree with some scripture is a characteristic of a religious cult.

    Martin says "The biblical perspective, where false teachers and
    false teachings are concerned, is that we are to
    have compassion and love for those who are enmeshed in the teachings of the false prophets, but we are
    to vigorously oppose the teachings, with our primary objective
    the winning of the soul and not so much
    the argument."

    Martin hits on an important point in saying that those who oppose the teachings of the Christian religious cults should not focus mainly on winning the argument. The cult people, on the other hand focus on winning the argument by use of various tactics of the dialectic. Romans 1: 28-29 lists several traits of people who engage in behavior there said to result from God giving them over to. One of these traits is quarreling.

    Martin goes on to say "Through the
    manipulation of terminology, it is therefore obvious th
    at the cultist has the Christian at a distinct
    disadvantage, particularly in the realm of the gr
    eat fundamental doctrines of biblical theology. The
    question is, then, how can the interested Christian solve that problem, if indeed it can be solved at all?
    In short, is there some common denominator that one
    can use when faced with a
    cultist of any particular
    variety, and, if so, how does one put this principle into practice?
    The cults capitalize on the almost total inability of the average Christian to understand the subtle art
    of redefinition in the realm of biblical theology. "

    "On encountering a cultist, then, always remember that you are dealing with a person who is familiar
    with Christian terminology, and who has carefully redefined
    it to fit the system of thought he or she
    now embraces."

    "The well-trained cultist will carefully avoid definition
    of terms concerning cardinal doctrines
    such as the Trinity, the deity of Christ, the Atonement, the bodily resurrection of our Lord, the process
    of salvation by grace and justification by faith. If pressed
    in these areas, he will redefine the terms to fit
    the semantic framework of orthodoxy unless he is forced to define his terms explicitly."

    Could it be that in a quarrel some Christian Zionists will carefully avoid defining their theology and carefully avoid defining their interpretation of certain key scriptures?

    Martin says "...cultic belief systems are characterized by genuine antagonism on a personal level since
    the cultist almost always identifies his dislike of
    the Christian message with the messenger who holds
    such opposing beliefs. "

    He hit the nail on the head here.

    "The identification of opposing beliefs with the individual
    in the framework of antagonism leads the
    cultist almost always to reject the individual as well
    as the belief, a problem closely linked with closed-
    mindedness and one that is extremely difficult to deal with in general dialogue with cultists."

    The Christian who defends the whole counsel of God should not make use of the same mindset and tactics of the Christian Zionist in attacking individuals but should refrain from doing so.

    There is much more in Martin's book which can be applied to Christian Zionism and its followers.

    http://www.eindtijdinbeeld.nl/EiB-Bi...lterMartin.pdf
    Walter Martin was a Historic Premillennialist, a position which most anti-dispensationalists on this forum would also disagree with.
    Jer 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD[YHVH], that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
    Jer 23:6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he[the Branch] shall be called, THE LORD[YHVH] OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

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    Quote Originally Posted by steko View Post
    Walter Martin was a Historic Premillennialist, a position which most anti-dispensationalists on this forum would also disagree with.
    Yes, saw him in person once. By the way, I had Hank Hanagragh removed from the radio here in Honolulu years ago. Pat myself on the back..


    Sent from my iPhone using TOL

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    Quote Originally Posted by steko View Post
    Walter Martin was a Historic Premillennialist, a position which most anti-dispensationalists on this forum would also disagree with.
    That alone, does not necessarily invalidate any of Martin's points cited above.

  12. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    40 years for me Jerry, and going strong.

    When I heard a sermon on the sermon of Acts 13 for the first time, after being a "Christian" for 10 years, I knew I had never really heard the Bible speak for itself. It was always people trying to make the Bible speak certain things over and over.
    Then why does your Bible study now consist of scouring thousands of commentaries?
    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    They can't compete with a real writer and grammar scholar
    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    You're too literal to get it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    The New Covenant preceded the Old Covenant.

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    LIFETIME MEMBER tetelestai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SaulToPaul View Post
    Then why does your Bible study now consist of scouring thousands of commentaries?
    Why do you not like commentaries?

    (2 Tim 2:2) And the things you have heard me say in the presence of many witnesses entrust to reliable people who will also be qualified to teach others.


    I don't see 2 Tim 2:2 saying: "read the King James, and nothing else".
    (1 Cor 1:13 KJV) Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

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    Quote Originally Posted by tetelestai View Post
    Why do you not like commentaries?

    (2 Tim 2:2) And the things you have heard me say in the presence of many witnesses entrust to reliable people who will also be qualified to teach others.


    I don't see 2 Tim 2:2 saying: "read the King James, and nothing else".
    Actually, he recently cited several (Hybrid) based "commentaries."

    No surprise there.

    He asserts their same words.

    "Commentaries" (in whatever form) though, are not the issue.

    Rather, over relying on them for one's reasoning...is.

    Start a thread on objective study principles...

    Watch it go nowhere...

    Unless "the number" give it their one-sided seal of approval

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    Quote Originally Posted by tetelestai View Post
    Why do you not like commentaries?

    (2 Tim 2:2) And the things you have heard me say in the presence of many witnesses entrust to reliable people who will also be qualified to teach others.


    I don't see 2 Tim 2:2 saying: "read the King James, and nothing else".



    Many, many commentaries teach D'ism... So STP might be on to something. That they need cleaning (scouring). It needs to be dislodged like calcification.
    All Lives Matter --Marcus Sanford, youtube.com

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    LIFETIME MEMBER tetelestai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    Many, many commentaries teach D'ism... So STP might be on to something. That they need cleaning (scouring). It needs to be dislodged like calcification.
    That's the irony for STP.

    Almost everything he posts on TOL came from commentaries written by Dispensationalists.

    Or audio comments from Les Feldick.
    (1 Cor 1:13 KJV) Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

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    Quote Originally Posted by tetelestai View Post
    That's the irony for STP.

    Almost everything he posts on TOL came from commentaries written by Dispensationalists.

    Or audio comments from Les Feldick.
    Nope.

    What you've been going back and forth with them on about Ephesians 2 is not held by Feldick.

    Likewise on some other 20 plus things they hold that are not held by the vast number of Pastor-Teachers out there who study and teach Scripture from the Mid-Acts Perspective of Bible Study clearly taught by the Scripture.

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    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tetelestai View Post
    Why do you not like commentaries?
    You can use any commentary you choose and tell us why the Apostles were in error for thinking that the kingdom would be restored to Israel. After the Lord Jesus was resurrected from the dead He spent forty days with His apostle while He personally tutored his Apostles about the things concerning the Kingdom:

    "To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God"
    (Acts 1:3).

    Of course anyone spending that much time with the King Himself would certainly know much about the Kingdom, especially the most basic things about it. And after forty days the Apostles knew that the kingdom would be restored to Israel, as witnessed by this question:

    "When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?" (Acts 1:6).

    After being personally tutored by the King for forty days they certainly understood one of the most basic facts about the kingdom, that it would be restored to Israel. If they were in error then certainly the King would correct them. But He did no such thing, only telling them that they were not to know when the kingdom would be restored:

    "And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power"
    (Acts 1:7).

    If the kingdom was not going to be restored to Israel then it would make absolutely no sense for the Lord Jesus to say anything at all about its timing. But He did.

    Perhaps the person which you follow, the Jesuit Alcazar, has an answer. If not, since your knowledge of the Bible is si vast tell us why the Apostles were wrong.
    Last edited by Jerry Shugart; May 22nd, 2017 at 08:56 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tetelestai View Post
    Why do you not like commentaries?

    (2 Tim 2:2) And the things you have heard me say in the presence of many witnesses entrust to reliable people who will also be qualified to teach others.


    I don't see 2 Tim 2:2 saying: "read the King James, and nothing else".
    Well, well, well...TOL's resident wimp, little arms Craigie, admitted Jew hater, arrives to weigh in on his on record, anti-Semitism.


    Right, Craigie? Go ahead-tell everyone that you are not an anti-Semite, since you "follow Paul," and no one else does, certainly not those wacko, meanie MAD-ists, that hurt your fragile feelings, years ago, and you've been crying, and pining, ever since. Go ahead, Replacement cult member, Preterist punk. Watch the evasion, from the weasel......Watch....I've been asking him this, for weeks. Watch the spin, non answer...


    Well, sweetie?
    Saint John W

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