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Thread: "Things that are different" included Gentiles

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    Quote Originally Posted by musterion View Post
    Why wouldn't someone admit to not being an antisemite?



    In my case it is because, like Paul, I'd like to see them in the mission work of Christ.

    You are using the term anti-semitism, but you mean anti-zionist. You are actually concerned about that, because it is very important to D'ism.
    All Lives Matter --Marcus Sanford, youtube.com

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    LIFETIME MEMBER tetelestai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heir View Post
    We are not referred to as sheep.
    Once again, you are wrong.

    Let's take a look at what the Apostle Paul said:

    (Acts 20:28-29 KJV)Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.


    Why did the Apostle Paul twice refer to the Ephesian believers as "the flock"?
    (1 Cor 1:13 KJV) Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

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    Quote Originally Posted by tetelestai View Post
    Once again, you are wrong.

    Let's take a look at what the Apostle Paul said:

    (Acts 20:28-29 KJV)Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.


    Why did the Apostle Paul twice refer to the Ephesian believers as "the flock"?
    Excellent.
    Oh how I love the Word of God!
    Do not just read the word do it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    In my case it is because, like Paul, I'd like to see them in the mission work of Christ.

    You are using the term anti-semitism, but you mean anti-zionist. You are actually concerned about that, because it is very important to D'ism.
    Matthew 10:23 (KJV)
    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    They can't compete with a real writer and grammar scholar
    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    You're too literal to get it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    The New Covenant preceded the Old Covenant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tetelestai View Post
    Once again, you are wrong.

    Let's take a look at what the Apostle Paul said:

    (Acts 20:28-29 KJV)Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.


    Why did the Apostle Paul twice refer to the Ephesian believers as "the flock"?


    He didn't.
    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    They can't compete with a real writer and grammar scholar
    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    You're too literal to get it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    The New Covenant preceded the Old Covenant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tetelestai View Post
    Acts 15 has nothing to do with the middle wall of partition.

    In Acts 15, James suggested 4 rules for the Gentiles. The suggestion from James was in lieu of the circumcision that the Pharisee believers wanted the Gentiles to do (in addition to keeping the Law of Moses).

    Again, that has absolutely nothing to do with the middle wall of partition that was in the temple, that separated the Jews from the Gentiles.
    So, there were not handwritten ordinances delivered to certain godly Gentiles?
    These godly Gentiles sure do not sound like those in Eph 2.
    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    They can't compete with a real writer and grammar scholar
    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    You're too literal to get it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    The New Covenant preceded the Old Covenant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by john w View Post
    Still waiting, little arms one, obsessed weasel, as I have asked,over 100 times, on TOL, for you to identify this alleged "the" Greek, or any "the Greek," that has "with Israel," in "the Greek" langauage, in the cited Ephesians passage. Over 4 years, and not a peep, from you, sweetie/ con "man"(loosely employed here).

    What's the problem? Your daddy the devil taught you well, from way back in Genesis-corrupt/take from-delete/add to/misquote the word of God?


    Looks like little arms Craigie has suffered yet another death knell, and is in denial!!!!!
    Interplanner can probably find the correct "the Greek" which contains what you are looking for.
    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    They can't compete with a real writer and grammar scholar
    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    You're too literal to get it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    The New Covenant preceded the Old Covenant.

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    LIFETIME MEMBER tetelestai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SaulToPaul View Post
    So, there were not handwritten ordinances delivered to certain godly Gentiles?
    No, they were suggestions. There was no decree or ordinance made.

    What did the Gentiles do when they received the suggestions?

    Answer:

    (Acts 15:31):The people read it and were glad for its encouraging message.

    Does that sound like enmity to you?

    The partition wall took away the enmity between the two groups.

    These godly Gentiles sure do not sound like those in Eph 2.
    There was no enmity between the Gentiles in Acts 15 and the Gentiles in Eph 2.

    The only enmity was between Jews and Gentiles.

    The only Middle Wall of Partition that ever existed kept Gentiles out of the inner temple, and allowed the Jews in.

    You and heir are so far out in left field on this one. The two of you need to admit you're wrong, and learn from your mistakes.
    (1 Cor 1:13 KJV) Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

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    Regarding that letter written in Acts 15, the Acts 28 writer, Stuart Allen, wrote...

    The opening words of the letter were a direct blow against the legalists who were causing so much trouble. They were disturbing and troubling believers and these words were a complete repudiation of their effort to impose the Mosaic ceremonial law upon the Gentile Christians.

    However, the request that these `four necessary things' should be observed would lead in time to a line of demarcation between the churches of Judea and those of the Gentiles, and between Gentile and Jewish believers in individual churches. It is not possible to have two standards of Christian conduct in a gathering of believers.

    This gradually grew to become a `middle wall of partition' which could not exist in the church of the One Body ( A.V.) with its close unities.

    p. 65, The Acts of the Apostles
    and Afterwards by Stuart Allen (Acts 28 Position).
    Paul's actual point in Ephesians 2 was repeated by him in the following...

    Spoiler

    Colossians 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

    As with various other strict ordinances under the Law, like the Jew's strict diet, etc., circumcision in the flesh made by hands had symbolized a middle of partition between Jew and Gentile.

    One that was a point of hostility between them.

    Acts 10:14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.

    10:28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

    Acts 11:2 And when Peter was come up to Jerusalem, they that were of the circumcision contended with him, 11:3 Saying, Thou wentest in to men uncircumcised, and didst eat with them. 11:4 But Peter rehearsed the matter from the beginning, and expounded it by order unto them, saying, 11:5 I was in the city of Joppa praying: and in a trance I saw a vision, A certain vessel descend, as it had been a great sheet, let down from heaven by four corners; and it came even to me: 11:6 Upon the which when I had fastened mine eyes, I considered, and saw fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air. 11:7 And I heard a voice saying unto me, Arise, Peter; slay and eat. 11:8 But I said, Not so, Lord: for nothing common or unclean hath at any time entered into my mouth. 11:9 But the voice answered me again from heaven, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common. 11:10 And this was done three times: and all were drawn up again into heaven. 11:11 And, behold, immediately there were three men already come unto the house where I was, sent from Caesarea unto me. 11:12 And the Spirit bade me go with them, nothing doubting. Moreover these six brethren accompanied me, and we entered into the man's house: 11:13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter; 11:14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved. 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. 11:17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God? 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

    Later, we of the results read of Paul's work and the issue it also brings up.

    Acts 14:27 And when they were come, and had gathered the church together, they rehearsed all that God had done with them, and how he had opened the door of faith unto the Gentiles. 14:28 And there they abode long time with the disciples.

    Acts 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved. 15:2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question. 15:3 And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren. 15:4 And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them. 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. 15:6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter. 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the LORD Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

    Later, Paul reminds Peter that said symbolic middle wall of partition is no longer.

    Galatians 2:11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. 2:12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision. 2:13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation. 2:14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? 2:15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. 2:18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

    Paul reminds Peter that the middle wall of partition between Jew and the Gentile that the Jew's diet, etc., had symbolized as an ordinance under the Law) is no longer.

    He reminds him that they too (Jews) had been proven sinners.

    That both have been proven under sin by the finished work of Christ; and that to build again that symbolic middle wall was not only to make Christ a minister of a sin; but was to trangress the grace of Christ in His finished work.

    In fact, it is on the basis he has just laid out there in chapter 2 that he asserts what he does in the very next chapter...which was why he brought that incident up, to begin with...

    Galatians 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? 3:4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

    See that - no difference between Jew and Gentile.

    The same are the children of God - no more middle wall of partition between Jew and Gentile.

    He repeats that over and over...

    Speaking of himself and his fellow Jews, he writes of the orioginal purpose of said middle wall...

    Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

    How?

    He has just noted in chapter 2 that they themselves had been found sinners.

    3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

    But now they themselves are no longer under that schoolmaster he refers to in Romans 9 and 10, as "that righteousness which is of the law."

    Neither they were still under that, nor were the Gentiles (who never were, to begin with).

    3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

    Romans 1:18-3:31 is the very foundation upon which these things being addressed here and elsewhere in Paul's writings are based on.

    All of which is summarized in the following...

    Romans 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

    3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. 3:29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

    One word - "ordinances" - and all that is thrown under the bus of a poor study approach.

    The failure to ask "what was Paul talking about in" (in this case, in Ephesians 2) "when he then followed what he was talking about, with what he said after that?"

    And what he was talking about was their prior status as Uncircumcision, in contrast to those of the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands: who by that; had been nigh unto God.

    And the very enmity we saw in Acts 11 and Galatians 2, that had resulted in on the part of the Jew towards the Gentile, and visa versa.

    1 Samuel 17:26 And David spake to the men that stood by him, saying, What shall be done to the man that killeth this Philistine, and taketh away the reproach from Israel? for who is this uncircumcised Philistine, that he should defy the armies of the living God?

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    Quote Originally Posted by tetelestai View Post
    No, they were suggestions. There was no decree or ordinance made.

    What did the Gentiles do when they received the suggestions?

    Answer:

    (Acts 15:31):The people read it and were glad for its encouraging message.

    Does that sound like enmity to you?

    The partition wall took away the enmity between the two groups.



    There was no enmity between the Gentiles in Acts 15 and the Gentiles in Eph 2.

    The only enmity was between Jews and Gentiles.

    The only Middle Wall of Partition that ever existed kept Gentiles out of the inner temple, and allowed the Jews in.

    You and heir are so far out in left field on this one. The two of you need to admit you're wrong, and learn from your mistakes.



    Good work, Tet. It's part of their multiple gospels problem; everything has moved over one space for that.
    All Lives Matter --Marcus Sanford, youtube.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    Good work, Tet. It's part of their multiple gospels problem; everything has moved over one space for that.
    Yo, Tet or IP, anything in the history books about a civil war between Gentiles at Ephesus - I haven't run accross any

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    LIFETIME MEMBER tetelestai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danoh View Post
    Yo, Tet or IP, anything in the history books about a civil war between Gentiles at Ephesus - I haven't run accross any
    No, but I heard one of the companies that does those Seven Churches' tours to Turkey, is now going to include the ruins of the Middle Wall of Partition at Ephesus, starting in 2018.
    (1 Cor 1:13 KJV) Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

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    Quote Originally Posted by tetelestai View Post
    No, but I heard one of the companies that does those Seven Churches' tours to Turkey, is now going to include the ruins of the Middle Wall of Partition at Ephesus, starting in 2018.
    That explains Trump's recent trip abroad

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    Quote Originally Posted by tetelestai View Post
    No, but I heard one of the companies that does those Seven Churches' tours to Turkey, is now going to include the ruins of the Middle Wall of Partition at Ephesus, starting in 2018.



    Well it could be that some Gentile churches started partitioning their buildings; I don't know. For an eye-opener, a person could visit some eastern churches today in eastern Europe etc and see how they treat Baptists, etc.
    All Lives Matter --Marcus Sanford, youtube.com

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    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    Good work, Tet. It's part of their multiple gospels problem; everything has moved over one space for that.
    One gospel: various aspects, within two foundational aspects.

    As in one military: various aspects within various foundationsl branches.

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