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Thread: JESUS IS NOT YHWH

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    Over 4000 post club daqq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nihilo View Post
    Perhaps for Protestants and the Orthodox, but not for Catholics. The Catholic Church bases her teaching of the Trinity upon both Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition. The Church teaches that the Trinity is Apostolic, not made up, and not pieced together inductively from scriptural interpretation, no matter how carefully done.

    And by Apostolic, the Church means that the teaching is not only directly from the Apostles themselves, but that also therefore, it is the Lord Jesus Christ's own doctrine.
    Sacred Scripture was shown to you and your tradition does not agree with it.

  2. #392
    LIFETIME MEMBER jamie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingdomRose View Post
    does it mean that the Son IS the Father? No.
    Good point. I should have said that like us Jesus is a Son, not the Father.

    We are not the Father either. In fact, there may be only one at this time.

  3. #393
    Silver Member JudgeRightly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingdomRose View Post
    I KNOW that there are no indefinite articles in Greek. So, according to the rules of translating Greek into English, if there is no article in front of a word that means that it is one of many. "Snoopy is a dog" is the English way of saying that fact. A Greek would write in Greek, "Snoopy is dog." No indefinite article. That way they know and understand that Snoopy is one of many. If they wanted to say that Snoopy was the ONLY dog they would use a definite article with "dog." It would literally be, "Snoopy is the dog."

    So in John 1:1 we have, "in the beginning was the word and the word was with the god, and the word was god." A Greek reading this would know that "the word was god" doesn't have the definite article, so it is one of many. To adhere to the rules for translating Greek to English, translators, as well as the Greek speaking person, would include the indefinite article "a" so that it makes sense in English.

    You really don't understand the protocol for translating Greek into proper English.
    Technically, you're correct, there are no indefinite articles in Greek.

    However, there is something called the Granville Sharp rule, which has been proved many times over in Greek.

    It states: "When the copulative*kai connects two*nouns*of the same*case, if the article*ho, or any of its cases, precedes the first of the said nouns or participles, and is not repeated before the second noun or participle, the latter always relates to the same person that is expressed or described by the first noun or participle."

  4. #394
    LIFETIME MEMBER jamie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingdomRose View Post
    Well, then, Jesus couldn't be "God." To be God he would have to be EQUAL to the Father.
    Do you mean like having all power in heaven and earth given to him?

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    TOL Subscriber Nihilo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by daqq View Post
    Sacred Scripture was shown to you and your tradition does not agree with it.
    An non-Apostolic interpretation of Sacred Scripture is not authoritative.

    "To be deep in history, is to cease to be Protestant"---Newman

    Matthew 16:18 AENT "I say also to you that you are Keefa, and on this Keefa I will build my assembly, and the gates of Sheol will not subdue it." (BR, emphasis mine)

    He is risen. [yellow][b][size=4] RESURRECTION [/size][/b][/yellow]

    "It's better to have a gun and need it, than not have a gun and not need it." Ricky

  6. #396
    Over 4000 post club daqq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nihilo View Post
    An non-Apostolic interpretation of Sacred Scripture is not authoritative.

    The reading of the text is plain. What you have proven is that even though you may bow at the name of Jesus, (worship), you do not bow in the name of Jesus because his Testimony-Doctrine is his name. You instead bow in the name of your Popes and church doctrines because that is the testimony to which you hold. These two little words, "at" and "in", are therefore life and death to your soul; for you may bow "at" the name of Jesus but every time you do you bow "in" the name of your mother church doctrines and dogmas which are the traditions of men.

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    TOL Subscriber Nihilo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by daqq View Post
    The reading of the text is plain.
    I give both sides of this credit for having both strong passages in their position's favor, and for passages that form a powerful challenge to their position. To divide the sea on this one, I went to history books. The earliest Church was without question unambiguously quote-unquote Trinitarian. The reason for the quotes is because before the Arian controversy, believing in the Trinity was the same as believing in the Resurrection; that is, it was Christian, it was the One Church who believed the One Christian faith (Eph4:5KJV).

    Today we know that this same Church then is the Catholic Church. That is of course not without massive dispute.
    Quote Originally Posted by daqq View Post
    What you have proven is that even though you may bow at the name of Jesus, (worship), you do not bow in the name of Jesus because his Testimony-Doctrine is his name.
    Then those who hold to the Holy Catholic faith are those who bow in His name, if I am right. What you are trying to prove is that there are exceedingly few Christians today who bow in His name, and I challenge that view, specifically with Holy Catholicism as the counter.
    Quote Originally Posted by daqq View Post
    You instead bow in the name of your Popes
    Not the same. No pope is to the level of the Lord Jesus, He is the pantocrator, the Master of the Universe; both heaven and earth (Mt28:18-19KJV).
    Quote Originally Posted by daqq View Post
    and church doctrines because that is the testimony to which you hold.
    See above. If I'm right, then according to you, those who believe the Catholic faith are the only people today who bow in His name, since Catholic teaching in the matters of faith and morals is the One Church's infallible teaching on these matters. If I'm right.
    Quote Originally Posted by daqq View Post
    These two little words, "at" and "in", are therefore life and death to your soul; for you may bow "at" the name of Jesus but every time you do you bow "in" the name of your mother church doctrines and dogmas which are the traditions of men.
    Whereas I simply believe that what Paul unambiguously wrote is true, "if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed."

    Paul explains that believing in Him, is believing in the Resurrection, they are the same.

    You do believe that the Lord Jesus Christ rose from the dead on the third day, right Daqq? I believe that you do, but you never answered me.
    "To be deep in history, is to cease to be Protestant"---Newman

    Matthew 16:18 AENT "I say also to you that you are Keefa, and on this Keefa I will build my assembly, and the gates of Sheol will not subdue it." (BR, emphasis mine)

    He is risen. [yellow][b][size=4] RESURRECTION [/size][/b][/yellow]

    "It's better to have a gun and need it, than not have a gun and not need it." Ricky

  8. #398
    TOL Subscriber Lon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by freelight View Post
    God bless you. I will continue to call out what I see as improper, abusive and demeaning.
    Wouldn't you appreciate a return in the favor?


    Quote Originally Posted by freelight View Post
    You continue to do so. My calling you out on it, is just that.
    Correct, it is always a response. I do, however, apologize for Freedimbulb. I don't generally do name-calling. I was trying to get people to realize "YHWH means Father" is wrong and the confidence and posturing comment couldn't bolster that it was completely wrong. If Unitarians are going to have a thread, that point was incredibly important for NEEDED correction. On top of that, if I don't say some things strongly, they go over heads and then you think "my comment stands." It was/is very important, for this thread, that all were corrected in their thinking because of the thread title. YHWH is not translated Father. YHWH is translated God. It was/is an important and stark contrast that needed clear correction.

    You're posturing, marginalizing, dividing...as if its "us against them" mentality.
    I realize you don't esteem scripture as God's word as I do, but can you think of ANY scripture that tells us to correct those who need it and show they are correctable as well as oppose those who preach what is different and opposed to us? One scripture? Am I to be faithful to God?

    Quote Originally Posted by freelight View Post
    This is an equal opportunity forum, and I've been expounding here for many years, and will continue to do so. I will discuss the topics and subjects at hand in 'creative dialogue' and construction discussion, thats what this forum is for. But I will NOT be bullied, or allow another to be unjustly so.
    You are often wrong. When it is so bad that it changes the direction of this thread on a point that is completely wrong, I may be around to say something.

    YHWH does not mean "Father." YHWH is translated "God."
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

  9. #399
    TOL Subscriber Lon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CherubRam View Post
    Psalm 82:6
    I said, "You are (gods / elohiym you are all sons of the Most High.


    Let's see you do something a god would be able to do. Make me disappear.

    Can't do it???? What kind of god are you???
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

  10. #400
    Over 4000 post club CherubRam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    [/COLOR]Let's see you do something a god would be able to do. Make me disappear.

    Can't do it???? What kind of god are you???
    Elohiym means (God of the Living) or(gods of the living.) It means that they have, or will have life immortal. It has nothing to do with super natural abilities.

  11. #401
    TOL Subscriber Lon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lazy afternoon View Post
    Revealing your true heart now Lon.

    You say non RCC Trinitarians are damned to hell.
    1) This is your thread (Arians). I didn't start it.
    2) Is it your opinion that one who cuts his bible up and disbelieves portions of it, is damned to hell?
    3) Did I mention hell?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lazy afternoon View Post
    You can not even read the truth without twisting it.

    Shame on you.

    LA
    I just said twisting scripture was wrong
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

  12. #402
    TOL Subscriber Lon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CherubRam View Post
    Elohiym means (God of the Living) or(gods of the living.) It means that they have, or will have life immortal. It has nothing to do with super natural abilities.
    Being a god doesn't mean you can move mountains?

    I am a creation.
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

  13. #403
    TOL Subscriber Lon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingdomRose View Post
    I don't believe that the JW who came to your door told you he could read Greek. I would assume that he was trying to tell you the same thing I'm trying to tell you. No wonder he was "angry"---I would sooner say he was frustrated. I also don't believe that he called you names. We are admonished over and over to never do that.
    It is VERY sad when someone tries to correct what I know to be true. You'd rather defend lies than admit one of your own lied.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingdomRose View Post
    Therefore, I would like to call you an idiot but I will refrain from doing so.
    Weren't you the one that told me you had 29k Greeks that 'could read Koine Greek?'
    Interesting you would call me an idiot.... I'd not mention that. Ignorant can be cured. Idiot and one is fairly stuck. I try not to use that word.

    Quote Originally Posted by KingdomRose View Post
    I KNOW that there are no indefinite articles in Greek. So, according to the rules of translating Greek into English, if there is no article in front of a word that means that it is one of many. "Snoopy is a dog" is the English way of saying that fact. A Greek would write in Greek, "Snoopy is dog." No indefinite article. That way they know and understand that Snoopy is one of many. If they wanted to say that Snoopy was the ONLY dog they would use a definite article with "dog." It would literally be, "Snoopy is the dog."
    No. "IF" you have no good reason for adding a word (and this is what we are talking about) then NO word should be added.
    I've heard a few scholars say differently but they are wrong. If you CHANGE the meaning of a sentence by adding a word, you've done wrong. See here. John could have made 'a' clear if that is what he intended.
    Be informed and not so self-assured at what you think you know. Your JW group has misled you.


    Quote Originally Posted by KingdomRose View Post
    So in John 1:1 we have, "in the beginning was the word and the word was with the god, and the word was god." A Greek reading this would know that "the word was god" doesn't have the definite article, so it is one of many. To adhere to the rules for translating Greek to English, translators, as well as the Greek speaking person, would include the indefinite article "a" so that it makes sense in English.

    You really don't understand the protocol for translating Greek into proper English.
    Yeah, I do. I disagree with those men, some of them who know Greek. They are wrong. Here is the rule: If you are translating, and your 'addition' changes the meaning of the sentence, you are WRONG for doing so. "God was the Word" IS the clear word for word translation.

    Just think. Stop emoting over a group of people who are unworthy of your defense. Champion God first and before all this.
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

  14. #404
    TOL Subscriber Lon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingdomRose View Post
    Oh give up, Lon. It looks as though your blindness will not be corrected any time soon, and those of us who already see are surely not going to be influenced by your distorted thinking. Tell me, where does it say that Jesus "took on the form of himself"? What version are YOU using? That doesn't even make sense. If he was in the form of something, how can he TAKE ON that form that he ALREADY had? The main one here that I can see who is "messing up and disbelieving" God's words to their eternal shame is you.
    Read for content. Listen to Nih,
    Quote Originally Posted by Nihilo View Post
    You're wrong.
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

  15. #405
    Over 4000 post club daqq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nihilo View Post
    I give both sides of this credit for having both strong passages in their position's favor, and for passages that form a powerful challenge to their position. To divide the sea on this one, I went to history books. The earliest Church was without question unambiguously quote-unquote Trinitarian. The reason for the quotes is because before the Arian controversy, believing in the Trinity was the same as believing in the Resurrection; that is, it was Christian, it was the One Church who believed the One Christian faith (Eph4:5KJV).

    Today we know that this same Church then is the Catholic Church. That is of course not without massive dispute.
    Then those who hold to the Holy Catholic faith are those who bow in His name, if I am right. What you are trying to prove is that there are exceedingly few Christians today who bow in His name, and I challenge that view, specifically with Holy Catholicism as the counter.
    Not the same. No pope is to the level of the Lord Jesus, He is the pantocrator, the Master of the Universe; both heaven and earth (Mt28:18-19KJV).
    See above. If I'm right, then according to you, those who believe the Catholic faith are the only people today who bow in His name, since Catholic teaching in the matters of faith and morals is the One Church's infallible teaching on these matters. If I'm right.
    Whereas I simply believe that what Paul unambiguously wrote is true, "if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed."

    Paul explains that believing in Him, is believing in the Resurrection, they are the same.

    You do believe that the Lord Jesus Christ rose from the dead on the third day, right Daqq? I believe that you do, but you never answered me.
    Nope. Believing that the Master was raised from the dead means that you truly believe every word he spoke which words are recorded for you in the Gospel accounts, (and the Apocalypse). Anyone who does not believe, adhere to, and practice those words and teachings in uprightness and truth does not truly believe that he was raised from the dead. The same is true of Paul; when he had his own encounter with Messiah on the way to Damascus you bet your life he then truly believed, and it changed him and his doctrine forever. Belief according to the scripture does not mean the same as what that word has come to mean to people in today's cheap easy believism of the modern mainstream, (especially in the drive-up window minded the west).

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