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Thread: Calvinism: A Detour Around Christ and His Gospel

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Pate View Post
    John Calvin never did accept or believe Martin Luther's doctrine of justification by faith. This is why he came up with his doctrine of predestination. To believe that you are justified by faith is to believe that you have been justified by Christ, Romans 3:26, which is the Gospel. Martin Luther believed the Gospel. John Calvin never did. Justification by faith and predestination are conflicting doctrines. This is why Calvin and Luther were not friends.

    Calvinism is nothing more than a detour around Christ and his Gospel. There really is no good news in Calvinism. They believe that God predestinates people to hell before they are ever born. You have to be totally and completely void of the Holy Spirit to believe that about God. If that is not bad enough, they believe that Jesus did not atone for the sins of the whole world, when scripture makes it clear that he did, 1 John 2:2. This is very serious, because if Jesus did not atone for the sins of the whole world, then Jesus is not Lord and we are all still in our sins, John 8:24. No one will be saved that does not believe that Jesus is Lord and has atoned for the sins of the whole world.

    Most religions including Calvinism, are designed to obscure the Gospel or eliminate it completely. Catholicism has eliminated it completely. There is no Gospel in the Catholic doctrine. They believe that Jesus is the savior, but he doesn't save completely. You must participate in your own salvation by what you do and by what you have become. Paul makes it clear that there is none righteous, no, not one, Romans 3:10. We have nothing to offer God that will merit our salvation. To believe that you do is to be in conflict with the Gospel and justification by faith.

    In the Gospel Jesus clothes himself in human flesh and becomes one with us, but not one of us. He is God's new Adam and our new humanity, 2 Corinthians 5:17. Our old Adamic humanity was put to death in Jesus Christ. This is what Paul meant when he said, "I have been crucified with Christ" Galatians 2:20. When Jesus came out of Joseph's new tomb we came out with him. As far as God is concerned sin, death and the devil have been destroyed by the doing and the dying of Jesus. God now sees ALL THINGS in his Son Jesus Christ, Colossians 1:20. All things, including us, have been reconciled unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19. We now stand complete in Christ, Colossians 2:10. This is the Gospel that Paul preached that reconciles us and the world unto God and justifies the ungodly, Romans 4:5. There is only one Gospel and this is it. There are many other false Gospels, but they do not justify or save. Jesus saves and he saves to the uttermost, Hebrews 7:25.
    You know that I am no fan of Calvin or of Calvinism and while agree that Calvinism is antithetical to the gospel, I sort of think you might be giving Calvin more credit than he deserves. My understanding is that Calvinism is little more than Reformed Augustinian doctrine. Which is to say that the Calvinists distinctives like the TULIP doctrines and the doctrine of predestination in particular were all introduced into Christianity by Augustine of Hippo in the late 4th and early 5th century and that Calvinism is just a formalization of Luther's reforms. Luther, after all, was an Augustinian monk.

    Do you have any documentation of the idea that Luther rejected predestination?

    Clete
    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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    Quote Originally Posted by fishrovmen View Post
    I did not see one mention of the word predestination in Calvins "Of Justification by Faith". Not only that, I saw many places where he taught justification by faith alone.
    I also saw other proofs to expose other lies that you have posted about what Calvin taught in your redundant threads.
    Since you believe that Calvin teaches a combination of faith and predestination for justification, why don't you show where he teaches this?
    To even try to deny it is proof of near complete ignorance of the topic.

    “God is moved to mercy for no other reason but that he wills to be merciful.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 22, Paragraph 8)

    “… predestination to glory is the cause of predestination to grace, rather than the converse.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 22, Paragraph 9)

    “Therefore, those whom God passes over, he condemns; and this he does for no other reason than that he wills to exclude them from the inheritance which he predestines for his own children.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christia/n Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 1)

    “We cannot assign any reason for his bestowing mercy on his people, but just as it so pleases him, neither can we have any reason for his reprobating others but his will.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 22, Paragraph 11)

    “We hold that God is the disposer and ruler of all things, –that from the remotest eternity, according to his own wisdom, He decreed what he was to do, and now by his power executes what he decreed. Hence we maintain, that by His providence, not heaven and earth and inanimate creatures only, but also the counsels and wills of men are so governed as to move exactly in the course which he has destined.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 16, Paragraph 8)

    "All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death. (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion Book 5, Chapter 21, paragraph 5)

    According to Calvin, nothing at all happens that God did not predestined, including what they refer to as "faith".

    Resting in Him,
    Clete
    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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    More copy and paste from op. Nothing original again. Yawn

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    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    To even try to deny it is proof of near complete ignorance of the topic.

    “God is moved to mercy for no other reason but that he wills to be merciful.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 22, Paragraph 8)

    “… predestination to glory is the cause of predestination to grace, rather than the converse.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 22, Paragraph 9)

    “Therefore, those whom God passes over, he condemns; and this he does for no other reason than that he wills to exclude them from the inheritance which he predestines for his own children.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christia/n Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 1)

    “We cannot assign any reason for his bestowing mercy on his people, but just as it so pleases him, neither can we have any reason for his reprobating others but his will.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 22, Paragraph 11)

    “We hold that God is the disposer and ruler of all things, –that from the remotest eternity, according to his own wisdom, He decreed what he was to do, and now by his power executes what he decreed. Hence we maintain, that by His providence, not heaven and earth and inanimate creatures only, but also the counsels and wills of men are so governed as to move exactly in the course which he has destined.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 16, Paragraph 8)

    "All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death. (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion Book 5, Chapter 21, paragraph 5)

    According to Calvin, nothing at all happens that God did not predestined, including what they refer to as "faith".

    Resting in Him,
    Clete
    I neither affirm nor deny the claim that Calvin taught justification by faith and predestination because I AM ignorant of his teachings. That is why I asked Robert to post the source for his claim.
    None of the quotes you posted here mention justification. If Calvin wrote about justification by faith alone in the work I referenced, then according to Robert, he changed his mind at some point before or after.
    Omniscience limited
    Prophetic guesses
    Election by observation
    No future yet

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    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    You know that I am no fan of Calvin or of Calvinism and while agree that Calvinism is antithetical to the gospel, I sort of think you might be giving Calvin more credit than he deserves. My understanding is that Calvinism is little more than Reformed Augustinian doctrine. Which is to say that the Calvinists distinctives like the TULIP doctrines and the doctrine of predestination in particular were all introduced into Christianity by Augustine of Hippo in the late 4th and early 5th century and that Calvinism is just a formalization of Luther's reforms. Luther, after all, was an Augustinian monk.

    Do you have any documentation of the idea that Luther rejected predestination?

    Clete
    Taken from, "A Compend of Luther's Theology" Conversations with Luther, pp 135.

    "When a man begins to discuss predestination, the temptation is like an inextinguishable fire: the more he disputes, the more he despairs. Our Lord God is opposed to this disputation and accordingly he has provided against it baptism, the Word, the sacraments and various signs. In these we should trust and say: "I am baptized, I believe in Jesus Christ; what does it concern me, whether or not I am predestinated.?" He has given us ground to stand on, that is Jesus Christ, and through him we may climb to heaven. He is the one way and the gate to the Father. but when we begin in the devil's name to build first on the roof above, scorning the ground, then we fall! . . . I forget all that Christ and God are, when I get to thinking about this matter, AND COME TO BELIEVE THAT GOD IS A VILLAIN. We ought to remain by the word, in which God is revealed to us and salvation is offered, if we believe it. Moreover in trying to understand predestination, we forget God, we cease to praise and BEGIN TO BLASPHEME. in Christ however, are hid all treasures; without him none may be had. Therefore we should give no place whatever to this argument concerning predestination".

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    Quote Originally Posted by fishrovmen View Post
    I neither affirm nor deny the claim that Calvin taught justification by faith and predestination because I AM ignorant of his teachings. That is why I asked Robert to post the source for his claim.
    None of the quotes you posted here mention justification. If Calvin wrote about justification by faith alone in the work I referenced, then according to Robert, he changed his mind at some point before or after.
    The point, which I clearly stated was that, according to Calvin, nothing AT ALL happens that was not predestined. Not faith, not justification, not eating boogers when your six. According to Calvin, if it happens, it does so because of God's immutable, timeless decree and for NO OTHER reason.

    Clete
    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Pate View Post
    Taken from, "A Compend of Luther's Theology" Conversations with Luther, pp 135.

    "When a man begins to discuss predestination, the temptation is like an inextinguishable fire: the more he disputes, the more he despairs. Our Lord God is opposed to this disputation and accordingly he has provided against it baptism, the Word, the sacraments and various signs. In these we should trust and say: "I am baptized, I believe in Jesus Christ; what does it concern me, whether or not I am predestinated.?" He has given us ground to stand on, that is Jesus Christ, and through him we may climb to heaven. He is the one way and the gate to the Father. but when we begin in the devil's name to build first on the roof above, scorning the ground, then we fall! . . . I forget all that Christ and God are, when I get to thinking about this matter, AND COME TO BELIEVE THAT GOD IS A VILLAIN. We ought to remain by the word, in which God is revealed to us and salvation is offered, if we believe it. Moreover in trying to understand predestination, we forget God, we cease to praise and BEGIN TO BLASPHEME. in Christ however, are hid all treasures; without him none may be had. Therefore we should give no place whatever to this argument concerning predestination".
    This doesn't exactly say that Luther rejected the doctrine of predestination. He just didn't want to argue about it (basically speaking - I know its a bit more complicated than that).

    There is no doubt that Augustine is the one who introduced that doctrines we associate with Calvinism into the Christian dogma. There is also no doubt that Luther was an Augustinian monk and that he did not reject the Catholic church because of it's teachings about predestination.

    Having said that, I don't disagree with your premise. That being the notion that Calvinism's predestination is antithetical to the gospel. I'm just splitting hairs with you on the Luther vs. Calvin thing.

    Interestingly (tragically) Calvinists actually believe that predestination IS the gospel! Amazing.

    Clete
    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    This doesn't exactly say that Luther rejected the doctrine of predestination. He just didn't want to argue about it (basically speaking - I know its a bit more complicated than that).

    There is no doubt that Augustine is the one who introduced that doctrines we associate with Calvinism into the Christian dogma. There is also no doubt that Luther was an Augustinian monk and that he did not reject the Catholic church because of it's teachings about predestination.

    Having said that, I don't disagree with your premise. That being the notion that Calvinism's predestination is antithetical to the gospel. I'm just splitting hairs with you on the Luther vs. Calvin thing.

    Interestingly (tragically) Calvinists actually believe that predestination IS the gospel! Amazing.

    Clete
    Luther is not the authority when it comes to the doctrine of Justification by faith. As a matter of fact both Luther and Calvin were still baptizing babies after they left the Catholic church. There were also other things that they continued to believe and practice that were related to Catholicism.

    One cannot believe that they are justified by faith and also believe that they are predestinated. The two doctrines are in conflict with each other. The article that I posted concerning what Luther said about predestination is a challenge to Calvinist to return to Christ and his Gospel. Luther said, "I forget all that Christ and God are, when I get to thinking about this matter and come to believe that God is a villain" That is what Calvinism does, it makes God a villain. And the it makes his Son Jesus Christ a failure. If Jesus did Not atone for the sins of the world, then Jesus is not Lord. If one does not believe that Jesus is Lord they do not have saving faith, John 8:24.

    When it comes to the Gospel and justification by faith Paul is the authority. However Paul did not have a concordance and a printed Bible like we have today. I know of some Christian scholars that know as much about the historical Gospel of Jesus Christ as Paul did. if not more. We are very privileged today to have all of the resources to know and understand what Jesus accomplished for us in the Gospel.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Pate View Post
    Luther is not the authority when it comes to the doctrine of Justification by faith. As a matter of fact both Luther and Calvin were still baptizing babies after they left the Catholic church. There were also other things that they continued to believe and practice that were related to Catholicism.
    I didn't suggest otherwise.

    All I'm telling you is that Calvin didn't invent the doctrines of Calvinism. He merely formalized and wrote down what the reformed church taught. Most of what we know of as Calvinism is just the reformed version of Augustinian doctrine.

    One cannot believe that they are justified by faith and also believe that they are predestinated. The two doctrines are in conflict with each other. The article that I posted concerning what Luther said about predestination is a challenge to Calvinist to return to Christ and his Gospel. Luther said, "I forget all that Christ and God are, when I get to thinking about this matter and come to believe that God is a villain" That is what Calvinism does, it makes God a villain. And the it makes his Son Jesus Christ a failure. If Jesus did Not atone for the sins of the world, then Jesus is not Lord. If one does not believe that Jesus is Lord they do not have saving faith, John 8:24.
    This isn't entirely true. Luther didn't understand how predestination could fit with salvation by faith and chose to place his emphasis on the later while Calvin emphasized the former but that doesn't mean that Luther rejected the whole notion of predestination. He didn't! He was simply willing to ignore what you and I understand is a contradiction.

    When it comes to the Gospel and justification by faith Paul is the authority. However Paul did not have a concordance and a printed Bible like we have today. I know of some Christian scholars that know as much about the historical Gospel of Jesus Christ as Paul did. if not more. We are very privileged today to have all of the resources to know and understand what Jesus accomplished for us in the Gospel.
    I agree with this entirely.
    Interestingly, it is Paul's writings that Calvinists most often use as their most prominent proof-texts. And so, it isn't the naked bible that we need. In addition to God's word, we need His wisdom (aka sound reason).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    I didn't suggest otherwise.

    All I'm telling you is that Calvin didn't invent the doctrines of Calvinism. He merely formalized and wrote down what the reformed church taught. Most of what we know of as Calvinism is just the reformed version of Augustinian doctrine.


    This isn't entirely true. Luther didn't understand how predestination could fit with salvation by faith and chose to place his emphasis on the later while Calvin emphasized the former but that doesn't mean that Luther rejected the whole notion of predestination. He didn't! He was simply willing to ignore what you and I understand is a contradiction.


    I agree with this entirely.
    Interestingly, it is Paul's writings that Calvinists most often use as their most prominent proof-texts. And so, it isn't the naked bible that we need. In addition to God's word, we need His wisdom (aka sound reason).

    Resting in Him,
    Clete

    So we agree that the Gospel and Calvinism are conflicting doctrines. You can't believe both and will adhere to one or the other. Calvinist frequently quote Paul, but Paul didn't really promote Calvinism. The word "predestination" only appears in the Bible 4 Times and none of it is related to ones salvation. On the other hand, words like "Gospel" "believe" "faith" "justified" "justification" appear in the Bible hundreds of times. It appears to me that Calvinism is nothing more than a rejection of the Gospel and justification by faith alone. Luther most certainly didn't want any part of it. I guess he didn't want to make God a villain.

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    Pateism, the gospel that Christ's death didn't save sinners He died for !
    "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
    preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
    called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
    a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

    Charles Spurgeon !

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    Quote Originally Posted by beloved57 View Post
    Pateism, the gospel that Christ's death didn't save sinners He died for !
    How many scriptures do you need that says Jesus atoned for the sins of the whole world?

    I only need one, 1 John 2:2.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Pate View Post
    How many scriptures do you need that says Jesus atoned for the sins of the whole world?

    I only need one, 1 John 2:2.
    You teach that sinners Christ died for, atoned for are still lost! That's unbelief

    Sent from my 5054N using TheologyOnline mobile app
    "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
    preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
    called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
    a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

    Charles Spurgeon !

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Pate View Post
    So we agree that the Gospel and Calvinism are conflicting doctrines. You can't believe both and will adhere to one or the other.
    You can believe anything. There are people who believe that the Earth is flat and that Unicorns are real and that shiny rocks improve your health when worn around the neck.

    But yes, we are in agreement.

    Calvinist frequently quote Paul, but Paul didn't really promote Calvinism.
    True! But they'd say the opposite and someone else would come along and agree with them too.

    The word "predestination" only appears in the Bible 4 Times and none of it is related to ones salvation.
    Quite so!

    On the other hand, words like "Gospel" "believe" "faith" "justified" "justification" appear in the Bible hundreds of times. It appears to me that Calvinism is nothing more than a rejection of the Gospel and justification by faith alone. Luther most certainly didn't want any part of it. I guess he didn't want to make God a villain.
    This is right but it only really applies the educated Calvinists. There are thousands, probably millions of people who call themselves Calvinist and/or believe in predestination and other Calvinistic doctrines who never think it through and develop for themselves a rationally coherent systematic theology. It never occurs to most Christians who believe in predestination that the doctrine blames everything that happens on God and even when it does they're told that it's "a mystery" that we're not intended to understand and that we must accept such conundrums on faith and let that be the end of it. And then they dutifully comply with the person behind the pulpit whom they consider to be the expert in such matters.

    I know of no one active on this website who fits into that category though!

    Resting in Him,
    Clete
    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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