User Tag List

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 38

Thread: "But it doesn't work"

  1. #1
    John 17:17
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    118
    Thanks
    18
    Thanked 41 Times in 34 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    5477

    "But it doesn't work"

    Often I hear people say a law or a particular punishment should be repealed because it is not working. It seems they expect the law or punishment to be rescinded or cancelled because people are still committing the relevant crimes. What law when passed completely stopped the crime involved? None! Ever! The purpose of the law is punishment and retribution.
    "All men are like grass, and all their glory like the flowers of the field;
    the grass withers and the flowers fall, but the word of the Lord stands forever."
    (1Pet1:22-23)

  2. #2
    Over 5000 post club The Barbarian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Posts
    5,074
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 173 Times in 153 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    40641
    If so, Prohibition was a booming success.

    But deterrence is a function of the law. It's why we don't have prohibition. You see, laws that don't deter, almost always make things worse.
    Let's say that I suffer from a delusion. I will call this delusion "Fact-check Syndrome." I respond by citing facts.

    Most people online don't want to be corrected. They do not care about anything that does not agree with them.

  3. The Following User Says Thank You to The Barbarian For Your Post:

    Rusha (April 19th, 2017)

  4. #3
    Black Rifles Matter Nick M's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    15,511
    Thanks
    544
    Thanked 6,145 Times in 4,085 Posts

    Mentioned
    31 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    2147771
    So we can remove a prison term as punishment as nothing changes. If somebody is put away until they die, or in a wheel chair, then maybe. Start executing rapists, slave traders (those that solicit prostitutes), murderers and kidnappers and we could save hundreds of millions a year.
    Jesus saves completely. http://www.climatedepot.com/ http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

    Titus 1

    For there are many insubordinate, both idle talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, whose mouths must be stopped

    Ephesians 5

    11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them. 12 For it is shameful even to speak of those things which are done by them in secret

  5. The Following User Says Thank You to Nick M For Your Post:

    Tambora (April 21st, 2017)

  6. #4
    Silver Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Posts
    16,517
    Thanks
    697
    Thanked 3,300 Times in 2,552 Posts

    Mentioned
    12 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    1716194
    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    If so, Prohibition was a booming success.

    contrary to the general current fables spun about prohibition and accepted by the retarded, it was indeed a "roaring" success - prohibition grew out of a need to control the rampant alcoholism and social disruption resulting, especially among the poor in the urban centers

    in that, it was successful



    the best lesson to take from prohibition is that the law of unintended consequences will always bite you in the butt

  7. The Following User Says Thank You to ok doser For Your Post:

    Saxon Hammer (April 19th, 2017)

  8. #5
    Over 5000 post club The Barbarian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Posts
    5,074
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 173 Times in 153 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    40641
    Quote Originally Posted by Nick M View Post
    So we can remove a prison term as punishment as nothing changes.
    The data indicate that prison terms are a rather effective deterrent. Not as good as the certainty of getting caught, as Robert Peel observed a couple of hundred years ago.

    If somebody is put away until they die, or in a wheel chair, then maybe.
    Nope. As Peel said, it wasn't the severity of the punishment, but the likelihood of being caught that is an effective deterrent.
    Let's say that I suffer from a delusion. I will call this delusion "Fact-check Syndrome." I respond by citing facts.

    Most people online don't want to be corrected. They do not care about anything that does not agree with them.

  9. The Following User Says Thank You to The Barbarian For Your Post:

    Saxon Hammer (April 19th, 2017)

  10. #6
    Over 5000 post club The Barbarian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Posts
    5,074
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 173 Times in 153 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    40641
    Quote Originally Posted by ok doser View Post
    contrary to the general current fables spun about prohibition and accepted by the retarded, it was indeed a "roaring" success
    If creating a cynical disrespect for the law, and producing large organized crime syndicates is success it was.

    prohibition grew out of a need to control the rampant alcoholism and social disruption resulting, especially among the poor in the urban centers
    That failed, too...

    We estimate the consumption of alcohol during Prohibition using mortality, mental health and crime statistics. We find that alcohol consumption fell sharply at the beginning of Prohibition, to approximately 30 percent of its pre-Prohibition level. During the next several years, however, alcohol consumption increased sharply, to about 60-70 percent of its pre-prohibition level. The level of consumption was virtually the same immediately after Prohibition as during the latter part of Prohibition, although consumption increased to approximately its pre-Prohibition level during the subsequent decade.

    http://www.nber.org/papers/w3675

    From the Cato Institute:
    Although consumption of alcohol fell at the beginning of Prohibition, it subsequently increased. Alcohol became more dangerous to consume; crime increased and became “organized”; the court and prison systems were stretched to the breaking point; and corruption of public officials was rampant. No measurable gains were made in productivity or reduced absenteeism. Prohibition removed a significant source of tax revenue and greatly increased government spending. It led many drinkers to switch to opium, marijuana, patent medicines, cocaine, and other dangerous substances that they would have been unlikely to encounter in the absence of Prohibition.

    Those results are documented from a variety of sources, most of which, ironically, are the work of supporters of Prohibition—most economists and social scientists supported it. Their findings make the case against Prohibition that much stronger.

    https://www.cato.org/publications/po...on-was-failure

    Any legal prohibition that is not a deterrent, will make society worse.
    Let's say that I suffer from a delusion. I will call this delusion "Fact-check Syndrome." I respond by citing facts.

    Most people online don't want to be corrected. They do not care about anything that does not agree with them.

  11. The Following User Says Thank You to The Barbarian For Your Post:

    Saxon Hammer (April 19th, 2017)

  12. #7
    Silver Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Posts
    16,517
    Thanks
    697
    Thanked 3,300 Times in 2,552 Posts

    Mentioned
    12 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    1716194
    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post

    That failed, too...


    We find that alcohol consumption fell sharply at the beginning of Prohibition, to approximately 30 percent of its pre-Prohibition level. During the next several years, however, alcohol consumption increased sharply, to about 60-70 percent of its pre-prohibition level.




    you sir, are a retard

    good day

  13. #8
    LIFETIME MEMBER aCultureWarrior's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    13,755
    Thanks
    9
    Thanked 1,059 Times in 914 Posts

    Mentioned
    15 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    569145
    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    If so, Prohibition was a booming success.
    Actually, Prohibition Was a Success
    http://www.nytimes.com/1989/10/16/op...a-success.html

    But deterrence is a function of the law. It's why we don't have prohibition. You see, laws that don't deter, almost always make things worse.
    "Laws that don't deter". Which laws would those be?
    I'm not a republican, I'm a conservative!

  14. #9
    Journeyman
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Posts
    63
    Thanks
    38
    Thanked 25 Times in 19 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by aCultureWarrior View Post
    Actually, Prohibition Was a Success
    http://www.nytimes.com/1989/10/16/op...a-success.html
    This made me laugh of course the would be a newspaper of the time saying this was a success just like all public opinions this does not make it a fact. :-)



    "Laws that don't deter". Which laws would those be?
    Cannabis prohibition which is gradually replacing alcohol as the taxable drug of choice by the people in some states in the U.S.A.

    Or littering and dog fouling - telling the 'truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth' - Marriage and a whole lot more.

  15. #10
    Journeyman
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Posts
    63
    Thanks
    38
    Thanked 25 Times in 19 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    0
    Lets be honest here all laws are made by people. Some laws are made to protect people from other people others to prevent undesirable consequences (like rubbish in the street) for all people. However laws are also made for a great many reasons that have little to with day to day living for most people.

    People with power (money or arms) can break these laws with ease and yet are protected by their power from many of the consequences often not even coming to the attention of the law enforcement agencies.

    People also collectively enforce the law or not by their own individual actions and our enforcement officers are not provided with the information they need. These officers are also people so they themselves have needs/desires that may conflict with the application of the laws.

    To improve the whole of society we would need to improve the moral fortitude of our children so that they do not want/need to break the law when they grow up.

  16. The Following User Says Thank You to Saxon Hammer For Your Post:

    Rusha (April 20th, 2017)

  17. #11
    Journeyman
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Posts
    63
    Thanks
    38
    Thanked 25 Times in 19 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by BoyStan View Post
    Often I hear people say a law or a particular punishment should be repealed because it is not working. It seems they expect the law or punishment to be rescinded or cancelled because people are still committing the relevant crimes. What law when passed completely stopped the crime involved? None! Ever! The purpose of the law is punishment and retribution.
    I agree that a law should be upheld at all times while it is the law. However not all laws that have been passed are good laws and many bad ones have been removed.
    There is no point in a law that people HAVE to break in order to survive nor in a law that nobody agrees with BUT yet again this is the law and so should still be of equal value to any other law.
    The purpose of the law is to instruct all persons as to the correct behaviour within the society that agreed the law should be created.
    However the JOB of the law enforcement agencies to to catch those undisciplined people that break the law. They are supposed to be fully supported by society in their efforts that also requires those disciplined members to inform the enforcement agency of the wrong doings of other less disciplined people.

    Your comments are largely born out of the general frustration that it just does not work that way (not all the time).

  18. #12
    LIFETIME MEMBER aCultureWarrior's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    13,755
    Thanks
    9
    Thanked 1,059 Times in 914 Posts

    Mentioned
    15 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    569145
    Originally Posted by aCultureWarrior
    Actually, Prohibition Was a Success
    http://www.nytimes.com/1989/10/16/op...a-success.html

    Quote Originally Posted by Saxon Hammer View Post
    This made me laugh of course the would be a newspaper of the time saying this was a success just like all public opinions this does not make it a fact. :-)
    When you're finished with your dope-smoking giggles, refute the information that was in the NYT's Opinion page that was written by a professor of criminal justice at Harvard's Kennedy School of Government.

    Quote: Originally posted by aCultureWarrior
    "Laws that don't deter". Which laws would those be?

    Cannabis prohibition which is gradually replacing alcohol as the taxable drug of choice by the people in some states in the U.S.A.

    Or littering and dog fouling - telling the 'truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth' - Marriage and a whole lot more.
    I don't believe that I've ever read a post by a Libertarian such as yourself where the term "victimless crime" wasn't used. This is a first.
    I'm not a republican, I'm a conservative!

  19. #13
    Journeyman
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Posts
    63
    Thanks
    38
    Thanked 25 Times in 19 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by aCultureWarrior View Post
    Originally Posted by aCultureWarrior
    Actually, Prohibition Was a Success
    http://www.nytimes.com/1989/10/16/op...a-success.html
    Umm - this link is a problem

    QUOTE=aCultureWarrior;4990639]When you're finished with your dope-smoking giggles, refute the information that was in the NYT's Opinion page that was written by a professor of criminal justice at Harvard's Kennedy School of Government.[/QUOTE]

    I am sure the professor's views were considered reportable and printable at the time BUT again this is not know to be fact in the studies that followed both in economics and social studies. History is always written by the victors and facts are studied where available.

    Quote Originally Posted by aCultureWarrior View Post
    I don't believe that I've ever read a post by a Libertarian such as yourself where the term "victimless crime" wasn't used. This is a first.
    This is the second derogatory remark you have made with absolutely no grounding and shows how poorly your mind is functioning given the commandments of this site. HOWEVER it made me laugh so much I do have to thank you

  20. #14
    John 17:17
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    118
    Thanks
    18
    Thanked 41 Times in 34 Posts

    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    5477
    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    If so, Prohibition was a booming success.

    But deterrence is a function of the law. It's why we don't have prohibition. You see, laws that don't deter, almost always make things worse.
    Yes, deterrence is a major role of the law. Unfortunately today our laws and courts and prisons do not deter!
    "All men are like grass, and all their glory like the flowers of the field;
    the grass withers and the flowers fall, but the word of the Lord stands forever."
    (1Pet1:22-23)

  21. #15
    Black Rifles Matter Nick M's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    15,511
    Thanks
    544
    Thanked 6,145 Times in 4,085 Posts

    Mentioned
    31 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    2147771
    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    Nope.
    Yep.

    In prison until he is in a wheel chair lowers crime because he is unable to do it again. It is also unjust, but it does lower the crime.
    Jesus saves completely. http://www.climatedepot.com/ http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

    Titus 1

    For there are many insubordinate, both idle talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, whose mouths must be stopped

    Ephesians 5

    11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them. 12 For it is shameful even to speak of those things which are done by them in secret

  22. The Following User Says Thank You to Nick M For Your Post:

    Tambora (April 21st, 2017)

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
About us
Since 1997 TheologyOnline (TOL) has been one of the most popular theology forums on the internet. On TOL we encourage spirited conversation about religion, politics, and just about everything else.

follow us