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Thread: Confusion Over Being "Born Again"

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    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Confusion Over Being "Born Again"

    There is disagreement between people on this thread in regard to what happens when someone is "born again." Let us look at this passage from the pen of Peter:

    "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God...And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you" (1 Pet.1:23-25).

    The Greek word translated "being born again" is in the present tense so can we not understand that when a person believes the gospel he is at that time born again?

    We can see James speak of the same truth here:

    "He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created" (Jas.1:18).

    Here the Lord Jesus also speaks about being born again:

    "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God"
    (Jn.3:16).

    Is there any reason not to think that in this instance when a person believes the gospel then at that moment they are born again?

    Another question that must be considered is whether or not being "born again" is the same thing as being "born of the Spirit" and being "born of God."

    Thanks!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    There is disagreement between people on this thread in regard to what happens when someone is "born again." Let us look at this passage from the pen of Peter:

    "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God...And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you" (1 Pet.1:23-25).

    The Greek word translated "being born again" is in the present tense so can we not understand that when a person believes the gospel he is at that time born again?

    We can see James speak of the same truth here:

    "He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created" (Jas.1:18).

    Here the Lord Jesus also speaks about being born again:

    "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God"
    (Jn.3:16).

    Is there any reason not to think that in this instance when a person believes the gospel then at that moment they are born again?

    Another question that must be considered is whether or not being "born again" is the same thing as being "born of the Spirit" and being "born of God."

    Thanks!
    It depends on where one looks at that from.

    I hold the view that 1st Century Israel had two salvations: one individual and on the spot, upon said INDIVIDUAL Israelite's belief that Jesus was the Christ, 1 Peter 1.

    The other, their nation's NATIONAL salvation, at the Lord's return, Acts 3; and also 1 Peter 1.

    In contrast, if I look at that through one theology or another I have arrived at prior to that, I will end up seeing something other than that.

    And then there is the issue of INDIVIDUAL salvation only, and this concerning both formerly lost Jews and Gentiles, this side of Israel's fall and temporary setting aside of said above NATIONAL, Israelite salvation, Romans 9-11, in light Romans 2 and 3.
    Last edited by Danoh; April 14th, 2017 at 08:48 AM.

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    No confusion here. I remember it well. 17th July 1999 at 10:30am.

    How could anyone not remember where they were and at what moment in time they were:

    Brought out of darkness into glorious light.
    Risen from death to life.
    Had the judgement of the law lifted.
    Been given the absolute assurance that their sin had been forgiven.
    Received the gift and the power of trust.
    The moment they began a lasting fellowship with their Saviour.
    The first prayers.
    The joy that surpasses all understanding worked in them.


    I could go on, but what would be the point. Anyone who has been born above will recognize the truth so far written. Those that are still in the flesh will despise these truths.


    "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."
    I know Him, correctly, as Messiah whom you call Christ. Yah Shua whom you call Jesus. Messianists who you call Christians.

    "Touch not mine anointed, and do my prophets no harm".

    I refuse, point blank, to speak peace to the unregenerate, hypocrites, religious dogma lovers and those that oppose the following statement:
    A regenerate man trusts in the evangelism of salvation conditioned on the atoning blood and imputed justness of Messiah alone.
    If you are fully persuaded, by experience, of this delightful, beautiful and life giving doctrine then I love you as a brother.

    Anyone who thinks that salvation is conditioned on anything a man thinks, does or says is atheist. I cannot and will not speak peace to him or her.

    I don't make statements online that I wouldn't repeat in front of my Maker, my grandmother or a judge.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Truster View Post
    No confusion here. I remember it well. 17th July 1999 at 10:30am.

    How could anyone not remember where they were and at what moment in time they were:

    Brought out of darkness into glorious light.
    Risen from death to life.
    Had the judgement of the law lifted.
    Been given the absolute assurance that their sin had been forgiven.
    Received the gift and the power of trust.
    The moment they began a lasting fellowship with their Saviour.
    The first prayers.
    The joy that surpasses all understanding worked in them.


    I could go on, but what would be the point. Anyone who has been born above will recognize the truth so far written. Those that are still in the flesh will despise these truths.

    "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."
    Romans 8:16 (KJV) ; 2nd Corinthians 1:21-22 (KJV) ; 2nd Corinthians 5:5 (KJV) ; Ephesians 1:13-14 (KJV)
    THE LORD JESUS CHRIST IS RISEN. Matthew 28:6 (KJV) Mark 16:6 (KJV) Luke 24:6 (KJV)

    Romans 10:9 (KJV) 1st Corinthians 15:14 (KJV)

    Trevor: "I know how to drive, man."
    Ricky: "You also know how to be stupid."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Danoh View Post
    It depends on where one looks at that from.

    I hold the view that 1st Century Israel had two salvations: one individual and on the spot, upon said INDIVIDUAL Israelite's belief that Jesus was the Christ, 1 Peter 1.
    What salvation did Israel have in the 1st century?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Is there any reason not to think that in this instance when a person believes the gospel then at that moment they are born again?
    Yes, but do you really care?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    What salvation did Israel have in the 1st century?
    1 Peter 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

    Same principle as...

    Romans 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

    He was writing to individuals within the election of grace (believing remnant of Israel).

    Their salvation was INDIVIDUAL.

    In contrast to their nation's yet future NATIONAL salvation, Acts 3; Rom. 11.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jamie View Post
    Yes, but do you really care?
    What's the reason?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Truster View Post
    No confusion here. I remember it well.
    I shared your experience as well. And as you said, I will never forget it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    There is disagreement between people on this thread in regard to what happens when someone is "born again." Let us look at this passage from the pen of Peter:

    "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God...And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you" (1 Pet.1:23-25).

    The Greek word translated "being born again" is in the present tense so can we not understand that when a person believes the gospel he is at that time born again?

    We can see James speak of the same truth here:

    "He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created" (Jas.1:18).

    Here the Lord Jesus also speaks about being born again:

    "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God"
    (Jn.3:16).

    Is there any reason not to think that in this instance when a person believes the gospel then at that moment they are born again?

    Another question that must be considered is whether or not being "born again" is the same thing as being "born of the Spirit" and being "born of God."

    Thanks!
    Timing is the issue: one must first do "the will of Elohim", (Heb 10:35-39 KJV, 1Thes 4:1-8 KJV), and as Paul explains; those things are found in the Gospel accounts, that is to say, the commandments of the Master, (1Thes 4:1, 2, 3). As for timing it is not when you first believed; for that is when I suspect we are predestined, (Elohim knows the heart, whether it was sincere or not, from that time), and when you first believed you received the earnest or "down payment" of the Holy Spirit, that is, the Word which one must then become immersed into by the "washing of water into the Word" daily, (otherwise why immerse for the dead "unruly members" of your "household" which you have been forced to put to sleep or mortify? these things are given in allegories just as the Master likewise speaks in the Gospel accounts). And as for the timing you can find it in the testimony of Paul himself when he and Saul were caught up, (one to the Paradise and the other to the "third heaven" speaking things which are not lawful for a man to utter). Moreover the "old man Saul" eventually went into perdition, (that one is the typology of Esau-man; the old man sin nature, the one who would trade his birthright for a bowl of soup to fill his belly, which is his god, for he walks according to his belly of the flesh just as the serpent was cursed to do from the beginning). Yeah, I think that about covers it in a nutshell.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    What salvation did Israel have in the 1st century?
    The one you have been going on about for years now.

    Lol - at your age, bro; you still need this kind of "Jerry is right as rain on this?"

    You constantly bring that salvation up as if you are ever looking for someone else to agree with you on it.

    But look at it this way - outside of a few so called MADs here and there, MOST within MAD hold your view that believing that Jesus was the Christ instantly, saved those 1st Century Jews who believed that.

    They did not understand that til after Paul; but instantly saved, sealed, and delivered they nevertheless were.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Danoh View Post
    In contrast to their nation's yet future NATIONAL salvation, Acts 3; Rom. 11.
    You had me confused because you spoke of two salvations for 1st Century Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Danoh View Post
    I hold the view that 1st Century Israel had two salvations.
    The first century Israel (as a nation) was not saved then or anytime since, right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Danoh View Post
    But look at it this way - outside of a few so called MADs here and there, MOST within MAD hold your view that believing that Jesus was the Christ instantly, saved those 1st Century Jews who believed that.

    They did not understand that til after Paul; but instantly saved, sealed, and delivered they nevertheless were.
    What is your point?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    You had me confused because you spoke of two salvations for 1st Century Israel



    The first century Israel (as a nation) was not saved then or anytime since, right?
    Unbelieving Israel rejected their offer of NATIONAL salvation upon the Lord's return.

    Culminating in their killing of Stephen: who sees the Lord standing, Acts 7.

    Standing because Israel was now headed towards Daniel's 70th week.

    Isaiah 3:13 The LORD standeth up to plead, and standeth to judge the people.

    Acts 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 2:35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.

    Which pending wrath the Apostle Paul later related, the Lord had delayed in His longsuffering, as He had planned on doing.

    Romans 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nihilo View Post
    Romans 8:16 (KJV) ; 2nd Corinthians 1:21-22 (KJV) ; 2nd Corinthians 5:5 (KJV) ; Ephesians 1:13-14 (KJV)
    Wow and yippee more cut and paste scriptures.
    I know Him, correctly, as Messiah whom you call Christ. Yah Shua whom you call Jesus. Messianists who you call Christians.

    "Touch not mine anointed, and do my prophets no harm".

    I refuse, point blank, to speak peace to the unregenerate, hypocrites, religious dogma lovers and those that oppose the following statement:
    A regenerate man trusts in the evangelism of salvation conditioned on the atoning blood and imputed justness of Messiah alone.
    If you are fully persuaded, by experience, of this delightful, beautiful and life giving doctrine then I love you as a brother.

    Anyone who thinks that salvation is conditioned on anything a man thinks, does or says is atheist. I cannot and will not speak peace to him or her.

    I don't make statements online that I wouldn't repeat in front of my Maker, my grandmother or a judge.

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