Paul was using Ishmael and Isaac as types representing those who are naturally born descendants of Abraham (unbelieving Jews) versus those who were spiritual descendants of Abraham according to his faith. Paul says they are LIKE Isaac, that is, comparable to him in some ways.[Jerry Shugart;4986778]Was not Isaac born of the spirit?:
"But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now" (Gal.4:29).
It was Ishmael (born after the flesh) who persecuted Isaac (born after the Spirit) so it makes no sense to argue that no one was born of the Spirit until after the Cross.
…28 Now you, brothers, like Isaac, are children of the promise. (Galatians 4:29)
Isaac was LIKE believers in that he was a child of promise. Abraham heard the word of God, believed, and, as a result, new life miraculously was born.
29 At that time, however, the son born by the flesh persecuted the son born by the Spirit. It is the same now (Galatians 4:29)
The phrase that Isaac was the son "born by the Spirit" is speaking of how Sarah's womb was miraculously enabled to bear him at her advanced age. Unlike Mary, Sarah's conceived naturally it was just that she received divine help. But if what you are saying is true and we should take the comparisons literally then it was not about "quickening Sarah's womb" but about some special spiritual way Isaac was born "in the spirit" If this is true then what about Ishmael who was "born after the flesh" Taking both cases the same way we would have to conclude that Ishmael was not conceived with spiritual life but with only the life of the flesh. Yet, according to you, all people are born with spiritual life. If so he would have been too. This goes to show how far you are willing to twist the scriptures to make your pet doctrine work.
The scripture does not say he did. Abraham's "place of comfort" was initially the alternative to entering the heavenly kingdom which nobody could do until Christ died, was resurrected had made a way into the Holy of Holies by stripping principalities and powers.No one can enter the kingdom unless he is born of the spirit and if no one was born that way until the Cross then how do you explain the fact that Abraham will indeed enter the kingdom? All you said is that you have no doubt that Abraham will enjoy the new birth. Why do you not think he enjoyed the new birth while he walked the earth?
You either did not read my exegesis of this verse or did not understand it. The word "because" comes from two Greek words ef (on the basis of which, or because) and ho which is a pronoun standing for another noun in the sentence. Taken together the words mean because of WHOM or because of WHICH. Translators in the West have held that the cause of sin is linked to Adam (because of WHOM) while Eastern theologians since the early centuries have held that it referred to the word death (because of WHICH). In the first case, the connection between Adam and universal sin is made through legal imputation. In the second, the connection is made to death since a lack of fellowship with God leads to our acting apart from the Holy Spirit. All you have done is say all men sinned, or since some people might avoid sin altogether MOST men sin. You have not dealt with the main point of the passage which was to explain WHY ALL men sin.That is why he didn't even understand what Paul wrote here:
"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:20).
But in your system, without any inherent inclination to sin. it is possible for some to continue in the sinless perfectionism of youth into sinless perfectionism as an adult. Though you say "all sin" there is no reason for that to be within your invented theological system.According to Paul "all men" died spiritually when they sinned. That means that "all men" were alive spiritually before they died spiritually. And that can onlt mean that all people emerge from the womb spiritually alive. But you say that a person can die spiritually even though he is not alive spiritually, which defies common sense.
I also asked you:
already answered[INDENT]What kind of death is referred to in these verses?:
I quoted this myself. Evidently you did not bother to read it."Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away" (2 Cor.3:6-7).
This is the process that leads men to sin but it does not explain why men are prone to have such desires and inclinations. When Paul tried to be a good Jew in Romans 7 he did ok until he came across a command that said "you shall not covet." Unlike other commands this one dealt with the desires and motives of the heart. The law, being holy, did not cause these desires to come into existence. Rather, the command simply revealed that Paul's desires to be against God's will. Even when Paul understood that he could not stop himself. Though in his ignorance he had not been accountable for his actions, he had already been covetous. The Law, his schoolmaster, simply pointed that out."But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death" (Jas.1:14-15).
"What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death...For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Ro.6:21,23).
Please refresh my memory. I also said:[QUOTE]
The word "regeneration" is translated the Greek word paliggenesia and that word is the combination of palin and genesis.
Palin means "joined to verbs of all sorts,it denotes renewal or repetition of the action" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).
Did I not analyze this word in the same way? I just did not leap to preposterous doctrinal conclusions you did and then try to reverse engineer scriptures in the OT to fit it.
I believe that converting to Christ involves a RE-birth or being born again. It is a recapitulation of birth in that it is holistic and radical. It is not a repetition in quality. The first birth brought life in the flesh and soul, not spiritual life. It is therefore not about a restoration to some pristine pre-natal condition of spirituality. It introduces an entirely new kind of life. You might say we are restored (at least in our soul and spirit) to a pre-fall state but even that is not completely accurate.To this you said:
Here is the primary meaning which he gives for the word: "new birth, reproduction, renewal, re-creation." Please notice the prefix "re" in three of those verses and consider its meaning:
"re-a prefix, occurring originally in loanwords from Latin, used with the meaning “again” or “again and again” to indicate repetition, or with the meaning “back” or “backward” to indicate withdrawal or backward motion:
regenerate; refurbish; retype; retrace; revert" (Dictionary.com).
Your ideas are based on a denial that the word "regenerate" is referring to a repetition.
I have addressed these scriptures. My point all along was just saying there was no restoration to infantile spirituality. I was not saying there was no restoration of any kind.Now let us look again at this verse:
"And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel" (Mt.29:28).
The word "regeneration"refers to the "times of restitution" spoken of in the following verse:
"Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began" (Acts 3:19-21).
The Greek word translated "restitution" means "the restoration not only of the true theocracy but also of that more perfect state of (even physical) things which existed before the fall" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).
So from all of this we can understand when the Lord used the Greek word translated "regeneration" he was referring to a "restoration."
Despite all these facts you continue to deny that the word "regeneration" means a restoration or a repetition of an action.