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Thread: Are we born sinless? Pelagianism and semi-pelagianism

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    Quote Originally Posted by Evil.Eye. View Post
    The word for "Sons of God" does not completely correlate with "Angels" because of the way the actual Hebrew translates. The book of Job shows this. The word Nephilim is also a word for "giant" in reference to Goliath. So... post flood. Not accurate.

    It's an idea and it comes from the book of Enoch which is a sham. Only the first chapter has any recognizable validity.

    I'm not trying to be a "killjoy"... but facts is facts.
    That's your opinion based on a pre conceived philosophical prejudice. It's not Jerry Dog's opinion. Neither is it a vast number of scholars.
    Thus my question is not for you but those on your side of the argument that hold to the truth that fallen angels interbred with human women producing the half angel half human beings worshipped in the mythologies of antiquity but condemned by scripture and destroyed in the great deluge.


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    Quote Originally Posted by intojoy View Post
    hold to the truth that fallen angels interbred with human women
    I hold that view.

    God Bless America

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    Quote Originally Posted by intojoy View Post
    What was the condition of the nephilim toddlers?


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    What an active imagination you have.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Evil.Eye.<(I)> View Post
    You are aware that the hyphen in the book of Job in the matter of the words "Sons of God" and the usage of the word "nephilim" as giant in the case of Goliath makes the usage of the book of Enoch kind of lame in discussion... right?

    It's one of those matters that really shouldn't be used for doctrine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dodge View Post
    I see with all the distraction you never provided a verse that says in "Satan all die " ! I can provide the verse that says in "Adam all die ".
    You may be able to provide it, but you have proven yourself unable to comprehend it in it's context.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tambora View Post
    I hold that view.
    Not me, but it has nothing to do with the doctrine of original sin. It's a rabbit trail.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eagles Wings View Post
    What's with the military jabs, guys?

    Has nothing to do with topical debate.

    Thanks for your service.
    lol, I was wondering that myself ! I responded in kind which I should have avoided.

    Thank you.
    Heb 4:2
    For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tambora View Post
    I hold that view.
    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    You may be able to provide it, but you have proven yourself unable to comprehend it in it's context.
    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    Not me, but it has nothing to do with the doctrine of original sin. It's a rabbit trail.
    I will come 100 percent clean on this matter and why "killjoy's" interjection is dangerous to this discussion. I don't deny either view and admit that this matter is a "giant" IDK. But... for the sake of doctrine... I always gravitate to the sons of God as being "mankind in God" and the daughters of men being "mankind that has strayed from God".

    Here's the reason... to erase that there could be genuine sons of God that were spiritually connected to God, shows that mankind was utterly disconnected from God and supports the "Augustine Doctrine". Also... it insinuates that Angels could breed and links to the book of "Enoch", which I have read and can "spiritually discern", but believe that it is a corrupt text and agree with God's leading to have it removed from the canon. There is also a problem with saying that angels can breed that binds to Jesus' words...

    Matthew 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God[a] in heaven.

    The logical counter argument begins with... well Jesus said "in heaven". But... there are many theological hurtles to clear on this matter.

    The other reason that it is a fun topic, but unsuitable for doctrine in that it leads to the idea that God punished Angels for becoming romantically interested in humanity. I just can't buy this one. We start to develop doctrine that suggests Azazel was the true form of the Evil One and that he is a champion of romance and freewill that God is continually suppressing.

    I'm not buying that idea for a second. I'll address this in my next address to Danoh per one of his posts towards Jerry, but from the Noahic implications of scripture that bind to New Testament writings.
    Last edited by Evil.Eye.<(I)>; April 21st, 2017 at 02:47 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dodge View Post
    lol, I was wondering that myself ! I responded in kind which I should have avoided.

    Thank you.
    I was being civil and employing humor because I could see an increase in our posturing. No harm meant, Jar.

    - Swabby

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    Quote Originally Posted by Evil.Eye.<(I)> View Post
    I was being civil and employing humor because I could see an increase in our posturing. No harm meant, Jar.

    - Swabby
    I understand no harm no foul it is a service thing.

    Do you know why the Navy was created ? The Marine Corps needed a taxi.

    Do you know why the Air Force was created ? The Navy was too slow.

    Do you know why the Army was invented ? Since the Marine Corps is responsible for taking the beach and 90 miles inland the Corps needed someone to provide supply lines to the warriors.

    Keeping it real swabby ,lol.
    Heb 4:2
    For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Danoh View Post
    That passage in Ex. 32:7 has nothing to do with what you are reading into it.
    Hmmmmmm... Really? Because Ex. 32:7 says:

    7 And the Lord said to Moses, “Go, get down! For your people whom you brought out of the land of Egypt have corrupted themselves.

    And excuse me for noticing, but Moses is now "Dispensing" the law per God's instructions and in a way that is about to fully set Satan up for his removal from heavenly authority. It's interesting that you and the rest of the "Adam's Fault" crew seem to dislike the idea that we are each responsible for our own "corruption".

    It's almost like you are trying to make Adam the "Scape Goat". And pardon me... but I thought we only had ONE true Scape Goat, that "Bore our Shame".

    It's interesting how even this very story supports the premise that we choose our headship and the fact of the matter is... "Federal" is a governing reference. Did Jesus ever say: "You are of your father "Adam"?

    My anticipation is to new heights.

    Quote Originally Posted by Danoh View Post
    Ol Mo was up on that Mountain receiving the very Law while they were corrupting themselves before the Law was given.
    Hmmmmmm.... Is that true? Lets go ask Paul. Paul, was sin and death in the world before Moses came down from the "Mountain of Sin"? ... Sinai means "Sin", but I'm sure you knew this.

    Romans 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

    Oh... so death was "reigning". Could you help me a little more Paul?

    1 Co. 15:55-56

    55 “O Death, where is your sting?
    O Hades, where is your victory?”
    56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law.

    Oh... So in order for death to "reign"... Sin has to be imputed... But in order for Sin to be imputed and bring death... law has to be present?

    Romans 4:15 because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.

    Gee Paul... so where there is "NO LAW", there can be "NO SIN"? Hmmmmmm... Danoh seems to think God doesn't do things "consistently".

    Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

    Wow Paul (maybe Paul... many scholars suggest Peter or Paul penned Hebrews... though no one is 100 percent sure.)! That reminds me of an Old Testament scripture.

    Mal. 3:6 “For I am the Lord, I do not change; Therefore you are not consumed, O sons of Jacob.

    Editing in... and before a certain garbage argument is inserted...

    Romans 7:9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died.

    So... yup... it's all leaning in favor of the original sin being pride and committed by Satan, which all of us but G-O-D are duped by. Thanks be to JESUS CHRIST for his redeeming work of the D-B-R!

    Quote Originally Posted by Danoh View Post
    The issue was their departure from the God of their fathers unto the ways of the heathen - corruption they had already known in Egypt.
    OIC... It wasn't that they were worshiping a FALSE god in the form of a golden calf? Thanks for correcting scripture for us Danoh.

    Quote Originally Posted by Danoh View Post
    And as intojoy noted, even "innocent" - "all flesh" - babies perished in The Flood.
    Wow... You guys make Richard Dawkins arguments about God really make sense. I'm certain that this is awesome to broach without bringing the rest of the scriptures to light that explain why God did this. (Said Evil.Eye.<(I)> Never.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Danoh View Post
    Babies, and cute puppies, you name it; all perished in The Flood.
    Wow... God likes to kill puppies and babies... You really have a flair for the God is Love of the matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Danoh View Post
    Your wood is wet, bro
    Nope Danoh... Your scripture is devoid of LOVE and You're about to get the corresponding scripture that reveals what really happened. Thanks for playing though.

    Hos. 6:6 and Mat. 9:13 for starters.

    Also... lets see what really happened by using the Old and ... wait for it... NEW TESTAMENT.

    Gen. 6:5 Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And the Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. 7 So the Lord said, “I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them.” 8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord.

    Hmmm... this reminds me of a verse... editing in... (Mt. 24:12) ... That LOVE thing sure seems important to keep in scriptural mind! Imagine that?!?

    Did Jesus really condemn these wicked men?

    1 Peter 3:8 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, ... 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. 21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him.

    What's this? Did Jesus visit the people that died in the flood while he was in "Spiritual Form"? I believe so. Did God allow DEATH to TAKE the wicked's flesh, so He could minister to their eternal souls?

    1 Corinthians 5:5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus

    Hmmmm... Look at that... It's even used by Paul as a method of salvation in his very writings. Why is it that you people want to make God out to be EVIL and Satan out to be Good?

    Are you teaching doctrines that make good evil and evil good? Are you taking the saltiness from the salt? Are you forgetting this.....?

    14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

    Uh Oh... Look, Jesus even refers to the Gospel in the Gospels as THE KINGDOM GOSPEL and shows that it Won't be preached again at the time of the end!!! What???? Oh No Danoh! What's this 2P2P stuff coming from Jesus' mouth?

    Why will it be preached and who's sake will it be preached for? And why does the following verbiage tie to Jesus words here? (Luke 21:20f... which binds to Zech 14:4)

    15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

    But... EE... You can't correlate this to Israel of today or Noah?

    OIC... So Jesus lied about Jerusalem and God lied through the prophets that He will gather the nations against ISRAEL like a FLOOD, but those Nations will be like those that were "Outside" of the "ARK"?

    hmmmmm.

    36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only. 37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

    Look mom... EE was right! The same passage goes on to discuss the Ark.

    So... Danoh... Why do you deny that GOD IS LOVE and why do you incorrectly divide scripture again?

    Did you notice that 1 Peter 3:19-20 reference to God's Longsuffering?

    That binds to 1 Co. 13... What gives Danoh?
    Last edited by Evil.Eye.<(I)>; April 21st, 2017 at 02:53 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dodge View Post
    I understand no harm no foul it is a service thing.

    Do you know why the Navy was created ? The Marine Corps needed a taxi.

    Do you know why the Air Force was created ? The Navy was too slow.

    Do you know why the Army was invented ? Since the Marine Corps is responsible for taking the beach and 90 miles inland the Corps needed someone to provide supply lines to the warriors.

    Keeping it real swabby ,lol.
    Rotfl

    DD ... Thank you for your service.

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    Over 4000 post club dodge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evil.Eye.<(I)> View Post
    Rotfl

    DD ... Thank you for your service.
    Same thank you for your service.

    Heb 4:2
    For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

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    Scriptures for the doctrine of Original sin given so far in thread:

    John 5:21; 14:6; 15:5; 17:12; 18:9 Luke 7:47
    John 3:3,5,16,18,21;6:44; 15:5 Ephesians 2:3,12 Psalm 51:2-5 Romans3:11,23; 5:10,12-14,15-17,19,20,21; 8:6,8;1-28 10:14-21;12-21,18; 7:6,7,13,14;8:20; 9:11,15-16 Galatians 3:13 1 Timothy 2:4 Ephesians 2:3,5 Ezekiel 28:16 Jeremiah 17:9 1 John 1:10 Job 15:14-16
    Genesis 2:15-17 Hebrews 2:9-18
    Matthew 18:14; 19:14 Psalm 58:3 Genesis 8:21 Job 14:4;15:14-16
    1 Corinthians 15:22,45-49 2 Corinthians 5:17;21
    Romans 3:9,10,11 Exodus 20:5; 34:7 Numbers 14:8 Matthew 27:25
    Psalm 58:3 John 5:39 Deuteronomy 4:10; 30:2
    Proverbs 22:15 Acts 2:39 Romans 3:9-11; 3:9-18; 5:18; 8:3
    Genesis 8:21 Ecclesiastes 7:20 Psalm 58:3
    Psalm 14:2–3 1 John 1:8 Matthew 23:27 John 8:12
    Jeremiah 17:9 Genesis 6:3, 5-7


    Scriptures for the doctrine of sinless birth given so far in thread:

    Ezek.18:20-32 Romans 2:4; 5:12-15; 6:21,23; 7:9-11 Genesis 3:17-19,21-23; 4:26 Isaiah 7:16 James 1:14,15 John 3:19 1 Timothy 2:14 Isaiah 14:14 Hebrews 2:14,16-18 Matthew 18:1-4 John 9:41 Job 31:18 Psalm 14:1-5; 22:10; 58:3; 71:6; 127:3,4,5; 139:14 Ephesians 2:2,3 Romans 1:21-26; 2:5-11; 7:9 1 John 3:3.4; 5:17 Exodus 32:7 Job 33:4 1 Cor. 15:20-22,44
    Revelation 3:1 Ephesians 2:1Ephesians 2:5 Colossians 2:13 Romans 8:6:49
    Romans 1:19-21; 5:15,19; 6:21,23; 8:10; 9:13 Matthew 8:22; 19;13,14 Luke 9:60
    2 Corinthians 4:3 John 5:25 Luke 15:24 Luke 15:32 Hosea 13:1
    Romans 7:8 1 Corinthians 1:18; 15 1 John 3:14 Romans 7:10 2 Corinthians 3:6
    Jeremiah 21:8 Romans 7:9 2 Corinthians 3:7 Psalm 22:10 Psalm 58:3 Jude 7 Hebrews 10:4 1 John 1:8 Hebrews 2:14
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    Scriptures for the doctrine of Original sin given so far in thread:

    John 5:21; 14:6; 15:5; 17:12; 18:9 Luke 7:47
    John 3:3,5,16,18,21;6:44; 15:5 Ephesians 2:3,12 Psalm 51:2-5 Romans3:11,23; 5:10,12-14,15-17,19,20,21; 8:6,8;1-28 10:14-21;12-21,18; 7:6,7,13,14;8:20; 9:11,15-16 Galatians 3:13 1 Timothy 2:4 Ephesians 2:3,5 Ezekiel 28:16 Jeremiah 17:9 1 John 1:10 Job 15:14-16
    Genesis 2:15-17 Hebrews 2:9-18
    Matthew 18:14; 19:14 Psalm 58:3 Genesis 8:21 Job 14:4;15:14-16
    1 Corinthians 15:22,45-49 2 Corinthians 5:17;21
    Romans 3:9,10,11 Exodus 20:5; 34:7 Numbers 14:8 Matthew 27:25
    Psalm 58:3 John 5:39 Deuteronomy 4:10; 30:2
    Proverbs 22:15 Acts 2:39 Romans 3:9-11; 3:9-18; 5:18; 8:3
    Genesis 8:21 Ecclesiastes 7:20 Psalm 58:3
    Psalm 14:23 1 John 1:8 Matthew 23:27 John 8:12
    Jeremiah 17:9 Genesis 6:3, 5-7


    Scriptures for the doctrine of sinless birth given so far in thread:

    Ezek.18:20-32 Romans 2:4; 5:12-15; 6:21,23; 7:9-11 Genesis 3:17-19,21-23; 4:26 Isaiah 7:16 James 1:14,15 John 3:19 1 Timothy 2:14 Isaiah 14:14 Hebrews 2:14,16-18 Matthew 18:1-4 John 9:41 Job 31:18 Psalm 14:1-5; 22:10; 58:3; 71:6; 127:3,4,5; 139:14 Ephesians 2:2,3 Romans 1:21-26; 2:5-11; 7:9 1 John 3:3.4; 5:17 Exodus 32:7 Job 33:4 1 Cor. 15:20-22,44
    Revelation 3:1 Ephesians 2:1Ephesians 2:5 Colossians 2:13 Romans 8:6:49
    Romans 1:19-21; 5:15,19; 6:21,23; 8:10; 9:13 Matthew 8:22; 19;13,14 Luke 9:60
    2 Corinthians 4:3 John 5:25 Luke 15:24 Luke 15:32 Hosea 13:1
    Romans 7:8 1 Corinthians 1:18; 15 1 John 3:14 Romans 7:10 2 Corinthians 3:6
    Jeremiah 21:8 Romans 7:9 2 Corinthians 3:7 Psalm 22:10 Psalm 58:3 Jude 7 Hebrews 10:4 1 John 1:8 Hebrews 2:14
    Lon,

    Utter respect for impartial thread facilitation! To have a view and post in support of thread discussion is a very difficult thing to do. Excellent work in drudging up the many scriptures that have come out.

    - Evil.Eye.<(I)>

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