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Thread: Are we born sinless? Pelagianism and semi-pelagianism

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    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shasta View Post
    Although Jesus spoke of this event as if it had already been accomplished the time of fulfillment had not yet come.
    According to your idea it was already accomplished but it really had not yet been accomplished!


    Why would the Lord say this if it wasn't already accomplished?:

    "Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life. Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live"

    Please notice that He didn't say "will be passed from death to life." Instead, He said that they have been passed from death to life.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shasta View Post
    Before He atoned for our sins and rose from the dead Jesus could promise anyone a place in His Kingdom to come. The down payment aspect did not come until later.

    As an illustration, let us look at Jesus when He went to the temple during the Feast of Tabernacles.

    37 On the last day of the feast, the great day, Jesus stood up and cried out, “If anyone thirsts, let him come to me and drink. 38 Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, ‘Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.’” (John 7:37)

    If the scriptures went no farther Jerry would be claiming that because Jesus was speaking in the present tense He was offering the promise to them then and there. However, the scripture adds a certain detail:

    39 Now this he said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive, for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified (John 7:39).

    Very clearly those who believed in Jesus had not yet received the Spirit because Jesus was not yet raised from the dead. Now since it is through the Spirit that we are born again it is also clear that no one was born again before the resurrection.
    Let us look at this translation:

    "Now on the last, the great day of the festival, Jesus stood and cries, saying, "If anyone should be thirsting, let him come to Me and drink." He who is believing in Me, according as the scripture said, out of his bowel shall gush rivers of living water." Now this He said concerning the spirit which those believing in Him were about to get. For not as yet was holy spirit given, for Jesus is not as yet glorified" (Jn.7:37-39; CLV).

    This passage is speaking about what will flow out of a believer, living water. And this verse speaks about what happened after the Cross when holy spirit was given:

    "And they are all filled with holy spirit, and they begin to speak in different languages, according as the spirit gave them to declaim" (Acts 2:4; CLV).

    It was the word of God which flowed out of those who believed and that is why His word is described as "living water." And what Peter says here refers to the prophecy of which the Lord Jesus made reference:

    "But this is that which has been declared through the prophet Joel: And it shall be in the last days,' (God is saying) 'I shall be pouring out from My spirit on all flesh, And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy" (Acts 2:16-17; CLV).

    There is nothing in any of these verses which indicates that no one was made alive by the spirit when they believed. As the Lord Jesus said, those who believe are passed from death to life. Not "will" be passed from death to life.

    Let us look at what the Lord Jesus said to a woman here:

    "And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven. And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also? And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace"

    According to your ridiculous ideas the woman was saved and had her sins forgiven but despite this she remained dead spiritually in her sins!
    Last edited by Jerry Shugart; April 24th, 2017 at 05:29 PM.

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