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  1. #76
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    Joe Montana was better all around than Jerry Rice was


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    Quote Originally Posted by Town Heretic View Post
    How many rings did the Niners win before Joe?
    The same number the Cowboys won before Roger.

    Quote Originally Posted by Town Heretic View Post
    I think leadership is extremely important. It's one reason I favor Peyton over Brady and Bird over Jordan, though neither of them were the greatest to play their sport. Montana had it.
    Not even close to Staubach's leadership.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    The same number the Cowboys won before Roger.
    Right. Joe came and the culture of winning began.

    Not even close to Staubach's leadership.
    Not even close to an actual argument.

    Look, you're a fan fighting for your guy. Good for you and I hope you always feel that way about him if it elevates your enjoyment of the game and your team. But I'm a fan of the game without a rooting interest in the competition, noting a truth about a guy who isn't mine, who led a team I never rooted for.

    Staubach inherited a team in 69 that had gone 12-2 the year before and took them to a SB three years later.
    Montana inherited a team that had gone 2-12 the year before he carried the starting load and took them to a SB one year later.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Town Heretic View Post
    Right. Joe came and the culture of winning began.
    Most people think that it was the arrival of Bill Walsh which began the turn around for the 49ers, not Montana.

    Quote Originally Posted by Town Heretic View Post
    Not even close to an actual argument.
    I guess it depends on how a person evaluates a quarterback.

    I share the same opinion of an NFL quarterback who has been there and done that, winning seven NFL championships and still holds the record for career YPA and for career winning percentage, Otto Graham. He coached Staubach in a College All-star game and said:

    "I coached the College All-Star game for 10 years and of all the quarterbacks in that game, Roger was the best I ever had. He was a great leader - that's the most important thing for a quarterback."

    I do not think that you share Graham's opinion as to what is the most important thing for a quarterback. You go more for the glitz and glitter.

    Staubach's leadership qualities continued after he retired from the NFL and many on his real estate team became wealthy while he amassed a fortune estimated at $500 Million. He is probably the most successful player in a second career since Byron "Whizzer" White, who in 1962 became a justice of the Supreme Court.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Most people think that it was the arrival of Bill Walsh which began the turn around for the 49ers, not Montana.
    The Cowboys were already winning 12 games without Staubach, so that's not really helping you. But Joe took over a stinker and was in the SB sooner than your guy with a winner.

    I guess it depends on how a person evaluates a quarterback.
    With me it's his play.

    I share the same opinion of an NFL quarterback who has been there and done that, winning seven NFL championships and still holds the record for career YPA and for career winning percentage, Otto Graham. He coached Staubach in a College All-star game and said:
    You said that already. He never coached Joe. I'm sure Roger was the best he had. It's a limiting context though.
    "I coached the College All-Star game for 10 years and of all the quarterbacks in that game, Roger was the best I ever had. He was a great leader - that's the most important thing for a quarterback."

    I do not think that you share Graham's opinion as to what is the most important thing for a quarterback
    I don't doubt how Graham saw him when he had him. What's the source and time frame for the quote anyway. I can't find it. But you're wrong anyway, I think leadership is crucial. That's why I loved Bird.

    You go more for the glitz and glitter.
    I think you're a homer who is letting it get the best of him and starting to speak for me (and getting it wrong without any more reason) is a way to end what I've conducted as a friendly difference.

    I've answered on the point, the nickname, the way he won and how quickly, the SB record, the besting of a better team and a future HOFer when he was in decline. Joe had to face some of the greatest defenses of all time too. Like Roger, he sacrificed years by sacrificing himself to make the best throw.

    Joe was a leader who could calm his guys on a SB winning drive and move them down field to victory. That's not glitz.

    Staubach's leadership qualities continued after he retired from the NFL and many on his real estate team became wealthy while he amassed a fortune estimated at $500 Million.
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    Is it even possible hypothetically for a quarterback to be the best leader (among quarterbacks) who's ever played the game, but not also be at the same time the greatest qb who's ever played?

    I'm trying to discern the distinction. Serious question. Would it be revealed in any statistic or metric, or is it intangible, or dependent upon witness testimony? How is this determined?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nihilo View Post
    Is it even possible hypothetically for a quarterback to be the best leader who's ever played the game, but not also be the greatest qb who's ever played?

    I'm trying to discern the distinction. Serious question. Would it be revealed in any statistic or metric, or is it intangible, or dependent upon witness testimony? How is this determined?
    I'm sure the guys in either huddle would tell you that when their guy was leading them they always believed they could win. Joe impresses me with what he did with essentially the same cast of characters that couldn't beat their shadow.

    The first year Joe wasn't the starter. I can't remember if he was injured or just learning. The year before the team had gone 2-12. Walsh coached Joe's first year on the bench Niners to another 2-12 record. Joe started seven games the following year and Walsh had them at 6-10.

    The next year (81) Joe started every game, the team went 13-3 and won a SB.

    The next year was a shortened strike year.

    83 they went 10-6
    84 they went 15-1 and Joe won his 2nd SB

    The next year they drafted Rice, who caught all of 3 tds while Joe led the team to a 10-6 record.
    86 was another 10 win season.
    87 was 13-2
    The next two years he led them to 10-6, 14-2 and back to back rings.

    In 1990 he was injured early in the 3rd quarter of a playoff run for a third ring and that effectively ended his tenure with SF.

    He went to KC, beat the team that betrayed him head to head with a lesser team. He went 11-5 in his first season.

    Leadership? No one who played with him will be confused about it.

    Quality at his position? I like this bit from an article in the Press Democrat:

    A year before Walsh died he was watching old film of Joe for a presentation he was scheduled to give.

    Bill told my dad, “Every pass Joe threw was perfect, exactly where it needed to go.” A year before he died, Bill fell in love with Joe all over again.
    Last edited by Town Heretic; March 30th, 2017 at 07:08 PM.
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  10. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Town Heretic View Post
    I'm sure the guys in either huddle would tell you that when their guy was leading them they always believed they could win. Joe impresses me with what he did with essentially the same cast of characters that couldn't beat their shadow.

    The first year Joe wasn't the starter. I can't remember if he was injured or just learning. The year before the team had gone 2-12. Walsh coached Joe's first year on the bench Niners to another 2-12 record. Joe started seven games the following year and Walsh had them at 6-10.

    The next year Joe started every game, the team went 13-3 and won a SB.
    Yes but NE won 3 SBs in Brady's first four full seasons. NE wasn't a championship team until Brady, and it was an instant transformation, and now they've won five with him at the helm. And none of that matters, because Joe's stats are better in the championship games. IOW, SF turning around under Joe's quarterbacking/leadership cannot mean as much as NE's transformation does under Brady's, but Brady's the 4th or fifth best qb ever, and Joe's better than him and always will be.
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    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Town Heretic View Post
    With me it's his play.
    That's fine. But I agree with Otto Graham that being a great leader is the most important thing for a quarterback. If anyone would know about that it is Graham who won seven NFL championships at quarterback.

    I think that of all the Super Bowl era quarterbacks Staubach was the greatest leader of them all. And his quarterback skills were not far behind any of the other quarterbacks of the same era.

    That is my opinion and you have yours.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nihilo View Post
    Is it even possible hypothetically for a quarterback to be the best leader (among quarterbacks) who's ever played the game, but not also be at the same time the greatest qb who's ever played?

    I'm trying to discern the distinction. Serious question. Would it be revealed in any statistic or metric, or is it intangible, or dependent upon witness testimony? How is this determined?
    I would say that it is dependent on witness testimony. I saw with my own eyes that Staubach's leadership abilities transformed a team almost overnight. Also, please consdider again what is said in this article about his leadership:

    "He pushed his teammates to greater heights than even they thought possible. Roger was able to draw more out of a player than that player could have drawn out of himself – the mark of a true leader.

    Roger’s teammates idolized him. He was bigger than life to them. They felt that with him, anything was possible. They gave him their absolute all because they knew that if they did he would deliver for them and the Dallas Cowboys."

    These things about Staubach and his career in the NFL were well known almost from the moment when he became the starting quarterback. No one disputed these facts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nihilo View Post
    Yes but NE won 3 SBs in Brady's first four full seasons.
    They did. And he wasn't particularly good in the first one and no where as good as Joe in any of them...well, that's not fair, his best SB edged out Joe's worst. Eventually Brady was Brady, but early he was like Big Ben, winning by team. Contributing, but not dominating from the position.

    NE wasn't a championship team until Brady
    They were, just not a SB Champion. They won the AFC twice and made the big game before he got there. SF was a poverty of nothing before Joe.

    , and it was an instant transformation, and now they've won five with him at the helm.
    In his first full year under center they went from 5-11 the year before to 11-5 and a SB (where, again, Brady was okay, but not great). Before that poor preceding season New England had a pretty good team. It was an off year, not a long streak of failure that Tom inherited.

    Then Tom got better and though the next two were close affairs, he had three rings by his first four year stretch. It would be ten years before he won another close and controversial SB.

    Joe's team was 2-12 for two straight years before he took the helm. He came in for 7 games the next year. They went 6-10. His first full year under center they went 13-3 and a SB. Two years later he won his second. Five years later he'd added two more, picking up his four in nine years.

    And none of that matters, because Joe's stats are better in the championship games. IOW, SF turning around under Joe's quarterbacking/leadership cannot mean as much as NE's transformation does under Brady's
    It can unless you think a team that's won four games in two years is better than one that wins 13 in that same stretch. The turnaround in SF was more dramatic. Now if you only concentrate on the year immediately before the SB, SF won one more game. But they also won two more games that SB season. So even with that narrow a focus it's a wash...but ultimately you're right, what sets Joe apart is his play in the biggest game. Four appearances, four wins, no ints, and every game played at a remarkable level, with the weakest leaving him with a 100 rating.

    , but Brady's the 4th or fifth best qb ever, and Joe's better than him and always will be.
    Brady is special. And he may end up, if he already isn't, as being the NFL's answer to Jabbar. Great for longer than anyone has a reasonable right to expect to be.
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    SF's turn around was like Bird with the Celtics. Which was the biggest at the time. I would have to crib pro-reference.comto get the numbers.

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    I always hated Bird. The Celtics went from 29 wins to 61. And Red didn't tank for high picks. So Montana's turn around was bigger in terms of futility of the franchise.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick M View Post
    I always hated Bird.
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    The Patriots weren't the first cheaters in NE.

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