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Thread: NFL 2017

  1. #16
    Over 4000 post club Nihilo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Town Heretic View Post
    I've never seen Brady without the scheme and team his coach put around him.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nihilo View Post
    Yes, you have. He won a ring the one time that happened.
    Quote Originally Posted by Town Heretic View Post
    I don't know what you're talking about.
    2001 that team was "put around" Drew Bledsoe, personnel moves were made with Bledsoe in mind, not Brady. The only time you did see Brady play "without the scheme and team his coach put around him" he won the Super Bowl. So yes, you do know and did already know.
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    Black Rifles Matter Nick M's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nihilo View Post
    Dilfer's a red herring.
    No, Dilfer shows that "rings" do not determine player quality. The QBs job is to score. Baltimore could not do it very well. Same with the worst player in the Hall of Fame, Joe Namath.
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    Out of Order Town Heretic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick M View Post
    No, Dilfer shows that "rings" do not determine player quality.
    That's exactly right. Manning's last ring, by way of example. Did he help them win? Yes. Was he great in his particular role? He was not. Brady's first ring was a yawn of a performance, with one td and fewer than 150 yards.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nihilo View Post
    2001 that team was "put around" Drew Bledsoe,
    It was a solid team that Tom ran the way he was instructed by the coach who set it up. They didn't build it to a qb in New England under Bill. They use whatever works, whatever talent they can put together in relation to whatever weakness Bill sees in the opponent. That's his M.O.

    And Brady wasn't impressive in his first outing. He won the way Big Ben won his first, riding the team. Brady threw for fewer than 150 yards, one td.

    Brady was a good, but not great qb for his first three years as starter.

    personnel moves were made with Bledsoe in mind, not Brady. The only time you did see Brady play "without the scheme and team his coach put around him" he won the Super Bowl. So yes, you do know and did already know.
    Tell me what you believe they changed for Tom. Neither were runners. Tom simply made better decisions. Bledsoe was a decent to very good qb. Tom started off good and became great.
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    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick M View Post
    Same with the worst player in the Hall of Fame, Joe Namath.
    No, the worst player in the Hall of Fame is Lynn Swann.

  7. #21
    Over 4000 post club Nihilo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick M View Post
    Trent Dilfer is undeated in the Super Bowl.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nihilo View Post
    And so's Phil Simms, whose championship game numbers are Montana-esque, but neither he nor Dilfer are in this discussion. Dilfer's a red herring.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nick M View Post
    No, Dilfer shows that "rings" do not determine player quality.
    Quote Originally Posted by Town Heretic View Post
    That's exactly right.
    When there are five, yes it does determine player quality. I know I know, it's not a fair statement since we have no other players with five rings to compare him to, but right or wrong I don't hold that against him.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Town Heretic View Post
    It was a solid team that Tom ran the way he was instructed by the coach who set it up. They didn't build it to a qb in New England under Bill. They use whatever works, whatever talent they can put together in relation to whatever weakness Bill sees in the opponent. That's his M.O.

    And Brady wasn't impressive in his first outing. He won the way Big Ben won his first, riding the team. Brady threw for fewer than 150 yards, one td.

    Brady was a good, but not great qb for his first three years as starter.

    Tell me what you believe they changed for Tom. Neither were runners. Tom simply made better decisions. Bledsoe was a decent to very good qb. Tom started off good and became great.
    Brady hadn't developed his long pass until years after he took the reins, so receivers like Randy Moss would have been lost on him, but not on Bledsoe. I think that the development of his long pass is what you and Nick are seeing in his stats as the years went on. But all I and many NE fans saw as his passing game got longer, was that his tournament winning percentage dropped, so we'd have just assumed he kept winning with dinks-n-dunks rather than put on an airshow.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nihilo View Post
    When there are five, yes it does determine player quality. I know I know, it's not a fair statement since we have no other players with five rings to compare him to, but right or wrong I don't hold that against him.
    No one comes close to Russells 13 ring count, but it doesn't make him the greatest either. Does it add to the luster? Sure.
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    Silver Member patrick jane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    No, the worst player in the Hall of Fame is Lynn Swann.
    I loved Lynn Swan
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    Quote Originally Posted by patrick jane View Post
    I loved Lynn Swan
    People look at numbers and lose track of the era. Look at the wrs of the era. Swann made the NFL's All-Decade team for the 70s. He had a higher avg. and more TDs than Drew Pearson, who was also on that All-Decade team. Paul Warfield, another great receiver of the era, had a higher average by almost 4 yds, but only one more TD despite playing 157 games to Swann's 116.

    Don't let people fool you about Swann. He was great.
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    Black Rifles Matter Nick M's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nihilo View Post
    When there are five, yes it does determine player quality. I know I know, it's not a fair statement since we have no other players with five rings to compare him to, but right or wrong I don't hold that against him.
    Sure we do, and not just in football as already pointed out. Otto Graham played in 10 straight championship games winning 7 times in 2 different leagues. He played in an era when passing was at a severe disadvantage, yet his efficiency for his career is 86.6, or about the same as Brady before teams go to bring their own ball.

    In addition to being a big fan of Chuck Noll, Mike Shannahan, Tom Landry....I really like Paul Brown who has given us what we have in the NFL today.
    Jesus saves completely. http://www.climatedepot.com/ http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

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    11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them. 12 For it is shameful even to speak of those things which are done by them in secret

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    Black Rifles Matter Nick M's Avatar
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    The owners vote today to see if The Raiders move to Las Vegas.

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    Over 4000 post club Nihilo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick M View Post
    Sure we do, and not just in football as already pointed out. Otto Graham played in 10 straight championship games winning 7 times in 2 different leagues. He played in an era when passing was at a severe disadvantage, yet his efficiency for his career is 86.6, or about the same as Brady before teams go to bring their own ball.
    Brady made the SB 7 times out of 14 seasons, and won 5 of them (two of them without Vinatieri, which lays that theory to rest). He only missed the playoffs once (2002 NFL season). And his clock's still ticking. But based on championships Graham is the leader, good point.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Town Heretic View Post
    No one comes close to Russells 13 ring count, but it doesn't make him the greatest either. Does it add to the luster? Sure.
    Are you arguing that rings mean nothing, or just that they don't mean everything? I don't think they mean everything, but I do think that they mean a lot.

    The unqualified point of any game is to win it. So Tom Brady and Joe Montana and Otto Graham are in the mix, but Dan Marino and Jim Kelly and Warren Moon are not. If any of those last three had won a lot, then they'd be in the mix. We also know why Terry Bradshaw isn't in the mix, and it's not just because he's already voted for Brady. He watched both Montana and Brady play after he retired, and he votes Brady.

    And despite last season's result, there's still time on the clock for Aaron Rodgers to rise to the level of Montana and Graham and Brady. He's still perfect in SBs even though he's only gotten there once, but he can get there again and again and again, he has the ability.
    HE IS RISEN. Matthew 28:6 (KJV) Mark 16:6 (KJV) Luke 24:6 (KJV)

    487 . . . the Catholic faith . . . in Christ.

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  19. #30
    Black Rifles Matter Nick M's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nihilo View Post
    Brady made the SB 7 times out of 14 seasons, and won 5 of them (two of them without Vinatieri, which lays that theory to rest). He only missed the playoffs once (2002 NFL season). And his clock's still ticking. But based on championships Graham is the leader, good point.
    The Patriots won 3 in 4 seasons, their glory years, when Brady was not much more than mediocre. Him not stinking up the Super Bowl, like many Hall of Fame QBs have done certainly helped. I'm only 44. I have only seen 1 Super Bowl won with bad QB play, and that was Denver over Green Bay.
    Jesus saves completely. http://www.climatedepot.com/ http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

    Titus 1

    For there are many insubordinate, both idle talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, whose mouths must be stopped

    Ephesians 5

    11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them. 12 For it is shameful even to speak of those things which are done by them in secret

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