User Tag List

Page 9 of 10 FirstFirst ... 678910 LastLast
Results 121 to 135 of 146

Thread: NFL 2017

  1. #121
    Out of Order Town Heretic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Within a whisper of rivers...
    Posts
    18,083
    Thanks
    2,501
    Thanked 5,428 Times in 3,197 Posts

    Blog Entries
    15
    Mentioned
    24 Post(s)
    Tagged
    3 Thread(s)


    Rep Power
    2147785
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Besides that, Drew "Mr. Clutch" Pearson abused many NFL teams during his career and he should be in the Hall of Fame.

    His stats, including receptions and yards, are much better than those of Lynn Swann who was inducted.

    http://lonestarstruck.com/2013/02/th...-drew-pearson/
    Stats are his enemy now. An All-Decade player of the 70s, he simply didn't produce numbers that make sense to people who came into their awareness of the sport after it shifted into overdrive and made the offensive side of the game a bit more like pinball. Had more receptions than Warfield or Swann and was cheated of a couple of years by an auto accident.

    Only two of 12 players on an all decade team at his position aren't in the Hall. He and Carmichael. And he's the only first team All-Decade wr from the 70s through the 90s who isn't in the Hall.

    He belongs.
    You aren't what you eat, but you're always what you swallow.

    Pro-Life







  2. #122
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    San Luis Potosi,Mexico
    Posts
    9,504
    Thanks
    1,026
    Thanked 5,829 Times in 3,928 Posts

    Mentioned
    78 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    1816033
    Quote Originally Posted by Town Heretic View Post
    He belongs.
    Thanks!

  3. #123
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    San Luis Potosi,Mexico
    Posts
    9,504
    Thanks
    1,026
    Thanked 5,829 Times in 3,928 Posts

    Mentioned
    78 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    1816033
    Quote Originally Posted by Town Heretic View Post
    They had a pretty darn good RB before him too. But it's still a passing league. If you have a rookie qb, a rb is going to carry a load, but where? Dallas was in a unique position. And even then it ended quickly enough. No, you can find talent to help the air attack in the later rounds at RB.
    Here is how Jerome Bettis answered the following question:

    How has Ezekiel Elliott changed the perception of running backs in the league?


    Bettis: His year does a lot for running backs. It shows running backs are a necessity, are important, are worthy of being a first-round pick, top-5 and we saw again this year as [LSU back Leonard] Fournette went No. 4 and it is a critical position, still very important in the scheme of the offense as having a feature back who can carry the load. That's what Ezekiel Elliott was able to show.

  4. #124
    TOL Subscriber Nihilo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    The North & the West
    Posts
    3,922
    Thanks
    666
    Thanked 844 Times in 706 Posts

    Mentioned
    7 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    185394
    Quote Originally Posted by Town Heretic View Post
    Chances are the bottom falls out at any time. Is it possible that he plays another five years? It's possible, but it isn't likely. Fifty? Not going to happen. He looks great? Sure does.
    I said all of that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Town Heretic View Post
    Time always wins.

    Time will beat Tom too, and likely sooner than later.
    I said that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Town Heretic View Post
    Not going to happen. If he gets through 2 more seasons looking like himself I'll be amazed. It's possible, but unlikely. Fifty? Not possible. Forty five is probably not going to happen even if he doesn't get that life altering hit.
    I said that too.
    Quote Originally Posted by Town Heretic View Post
    No, I'm saying Joe won every SB he played in. And that he beat the team he won with, beat Young in their only head to head leading a comparatively inferior team. Joe could have another ring or two had SF not decided to take the younger player that gave them a healthier body and a longer run at rings. But he doesn't need them to be the GOAT. What he did before the trade to KC secured that against any challenger so far. His record and rating in the SBs is unmatched. I believe Brady's best game rating beat Joe's worst and that's about it.

    Montana ratings by SB, high to low: 147.6, 127.2, 115.2, 100
    Brady ratings by SB, high to low: 110.2, 101.1, 100.5, 95.2, 91.1, 86.2, 82.5


    What we know is that Joe won two rings without Rice and two with, or as many without. Brady lost his bid with the closest thing he had to Rice playing with him in Moss and lost with a historic best offense in a game where Brady looked so-so.


    . . . What I'm saying is that Joe was the better qb by any reasonable litmus. The only way Brady is in the conversation is if you make it all about the number of rings and that only. But then that's like suggesting Bill Russel is the greatest basketball player of all time because he has the most rings.

    Bill was great, not doubt. But no one is calling him the GOAT.
    I didn't call Brady the GOAT. In fact . . .
    Quote Originally Posted by Nihilo View Post
    Spoiler
    Yes but NE won 3 SBs in Brady's first four full seasons. NE wasn't a championship team until Brady, and it was an instant transformation, and now they've won five with him at the helm. And none of that matters, because Joe's stats are better in the championship games. IOW, SF turning around under Joe's quarterbacking/leadership cannot mean as much as NE's transformation does under Brady's, but
    Brady's the 4th or fifth best qb ever, and Joe's better than him and always will be.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nihilo View Post
    Spoiler
    Brady played 237 games for 456 tds to 152 picks and a career rating of 97.2
    Brady played in 34 playoff games for 63 tds and 31 picks, with a playoff rating of 89.1

    There's obviously different ways to skin this cat.
    Brady's not shabby, but he's not tops, and there's not enough time for him to become tops either
    Spoiler
    , but still, one of the greatest qbs ever.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nihilo View Post
    Spoiler
    How many rings, from how many post-seasons, in how many "valid" seasons played (seasons not somehow invalidated, by injury, or by otherwise not being the starter). X-for-Y-in-Z seasons played. Graham played 10 seasons and 10 championship games, and won 7 quote-unquote rings. So his numbers are 7-for-10-in-10, the gold standard for this particular metric.

    Graham 7-for-10-in-10

    Bart Starr 5-for-6-in-12 (counting from when Lombardi made him the sole starter)

    Montana 4-for-10-in-13 (excl. '86 for injury). With SF, Montana was 4-for-8-in-11 ('86 excluded for injury).

    Brady 5-for-14-in-15.

    Bradshaw 4-for-9-in-12

    Brady's conversion percentage of post-season appearances into championships is significantly behind these other qbs.
    In fact, you are the one who has him 2nd best all time, and not me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Town Heretic View Post
    Spoiler
    An ESPN panel of coaches and execs ranked their top qbs in the post 78 era and their list was interesting.

    They panel voted and their votes were indexed across ten ballots. Everyone involved were SB winners during their tenures.

    1. Brady: 86 index, highest 1st, lowest 6th
    2. Peyton: 80 index, highest 1st, lowest 5th
    3. Montana: 78 index, highest 1st, lowest 9th
    4. Elway: 66 index, highest 1st, lowest 8th
    5. Rodgers: 56 index, highest 3rd, lowest NR
    6. Favre: 49 index, highest 4th, lowest NR
    T Marino: Highest 3rd, lowest NR
    8. Young: 44 index, highest 2nd, lowest NR
    9. Brees: 40 index, highest 4, lowest NR
    10. Fouts: 22 index, highest 4, lowest NR

    Not considered: Bradshaw and a number of stars at the position prior to 78.

    If I had to use the list
    I'd rank them: Montana, Brady, Peyton, Young, Marino, Rodgers, Brees, Elway, Favre, Fouts.
    Quote Originally Posted by Town Heretic View Post
    Spoiler
    Beats the stew out of me. I dropped him down in that list. I suspect they were considering what a greatly diminished Elway did with the right team and coaching at the end. But I'm not sure you could have coached him into that play absent the diminishing.

    Here's the list again, with
    theirs on the left and mine on the right. How would you rank them?

    1. Brady------Montana
    2. Peyton----Brady
    3. Montana--Peyton
    Spoiler

    4. Elway-----Young
    5. Rodgers--Marino
    6. Favre------Rodgers
    T Marino-----Brees
    8. Young-----Elway
    9. Brees-----Favre
    10. Fouts---Fouts

    Anyway, and meanwhile, back at the ranch . . .
    Quote Originally Posted by Nihilo View Post
    to me, you're saying, Yes, the correct answer is that Joe Montana would continue his demonstrated SB-appearance-per-season performance as a starting QB up until hypothetical 45-50 years old, in the hypothetical and more just world where Montana isn't career-fatally injured in his prime. I disagree, and I feel like you're trying to make me the idiot in disagreeing with you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Town Heretic View Post
    And I'm telling you that's the homer in you, the part of you that feels that way or believes I'm disparaging a great qb by noting that the popular and media driven sentiment isn't really supported by objective data. He's like Bill, great, but not the GOAT. And you're not an idiot, you're just a fan letting his love for his guy and team overwhelm your objectivity.
    I need you to show me where I've lost my objectivity.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nihilo View Post
    Spoiler
    . . . I could see where Brady would have won 8 SBs now if certain things went one way or another, but
    what happened happened. We have to base it on what happened, not what would-a, could-a, should-a.
    Spoiler
    IMO anyway. Playing this way, it would be never ending. You'd have to run through everybody's career who is even within shooting distance to be fair.
    HE IS RISEN. Matthew 28:6 (KJV) Mark 16:6 (KJV) Luke 24:6 (KJV)

    487 What the Catholic faith believes about Mary is based on what it believes about Christ, and what it teaches about Mary illumines in turn its faith in Christ.

    "It's better to have a gun and need it, than not have a gun and not need it." Ricky

  5. #125
    Out of Order Town Heretic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Within a whisper of rivers...
    Posts
    18,083
    Thanks
    2,501
    Thanked 5,428 Times in 3,197 Posts

    Blog Entries
    15
    Mentioned
    24 Post(s)
    Tagged
    3 Thread(s)


    Rep Power
    2147785
    Quote Originally Posted by Nihilo View Post
    I said all of that. I said that. I said that too.
    I thought you were talking about what Tom might yet add to his resume. Missed you telling me he likely won't. Glad to see us agreeing on the points then. Excellent. And when you even suggest Brady playing to 50 it's not really in keeping with that agreement. Like saying, "But suppose he grows an extra head." It's just not going to happen. No one has ever come close to that, let alone approaching it with anything in the tank that can be taken seriously.

    I didn't call Brady the GOAT. In fact . . .
    I've largely been addressing the GOAT myth that goes hand in hand with the media driven need for a "great one" or, better yet, "GOAT" to be playing now and looking at the reality of the player and that golden aura that was crafted by ESPN.

    In fact, you are the one who has him 2nd best all time, and not me.
    In fairness I was taking the list as presented and reordering it while noting other great qbs were off the board of that consideration because of the time cut-off. I've never said Brady is the second best qb of all time. I've largely considered him the second best of his generation, until recently. He's gained for me the way Jabbar's extended greatness gained for him with me.

    What I've actually said is that I think he and Peyton are a push, that Brees could be a serious competitor for his generation as well. Green Bay has a qb who might be as good as either and none of them are the GOAT.

    And while you once put Montana solidly in the lead more recently in our exchange you said you'd take Brady now over Montana in his prime.

    So who are you suggesting you'd take ahead of Brady again?


    Anyway, and meanwhile, back at the ranch . . .I need you to show me where I've lost my objectivity.
    It would help if you wouldn't wait this long between postings. I consider and post as I come to a thing. You wait a week or better and it's a cold trail. I recall you repeatedly stating I was disparaging Brady, which is a peculiar charge from someone who thinks I hold him at number two on my all time list. And I think your Brady at 40 over Joe in his prime is a prime example of homerism over logic, given you also say you don't actually expect Brady to miss that wall sooner than later (and who knows, it could be this year) to name a couple of points.

    Both of those positions are incongruous at worst and strained at best.

    So who is on your list, 1-10?
    You aren't what you eat, but you're always what you swallow.

    Pro-Life







  6. #126
    Black Rifles Matter Nick M's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    16,743
    Thanks
    637
    Thanked 8,582 Times in 5,855 Posts

    Mentioned
    37 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    2147787
    The NFL has suspended Dallas Cowboys RB Zeke Elliott. Columbus PD didn't charge him after seeing her texts asking friends to lie. The NFL doesn't seem to know right from wrong. Murderer Ray Lewis is allowed to make money as a studio analyst.

    And Zeke needs to wake up and not hang around people that will get you in trouble.

    The suspension is specifically for the domestic violence that didn't happen. It is 6 games, pending appeal.

  7. #127
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    San Luis Potosi,Mexico
    Posts
    9,504
    Thanks
    1,026
    Thanked 5,829 Times in 3,928 Posts

    Mentioned
    78 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    1816033
    Quote Originally Posted by Nick M View Post
    The NFL has suspended Dallas Cowboys RB Zeke Elliott. Columbus PD didn't charge him after seeing her texts asking friends to lie. The NFL doesn't seem to know right from wrong.
    At least Zeke will have fresh legs heading into the playoffs!

  8. #128
    Black Rifles Matter Nick M's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    16,743
    Thanks
    637
    Thanked 8,582 Times in 5,855 Posts

    Mentioned
    37 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    2147787
    We are going to find out if Dak can win games by himself. Sort of.

  9. #129
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    San Luis Potosi,Mexico
    Posts
    9,504
    Thanks
    1,026
    Thanked 5,829 Times in 3,928 Posts

    Mentioned
    78 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    1816033
    Elliott’s representatives suggested that maybe she was in a fight with another woman and the bruises, for example a bruise to her eye, and perhaps other bruises on her body, were sustained in that altercation. The NFL’s investigators talked to people who witnessed that altercation and it was revealed that neither woman landed a punch on the other, they pulled each other’s hair but they never hit each other with a balled-up fist or in any other way.

    At least there is evidence that she had a fight with someone else. Where is the evidence that Zeke hit her?

  10. #130
    Black Rifles Matter Nick M's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    16,743
    Thanks
    637
    Thanked 8,582 Times in 5,855 Posts

    Mentioned
    37 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    2147787
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Elliott’s representatives suggested that maybe she was in a fight with another woman and the bruises, for example a bruise to her eye, and perhaps other bruises on her body, were sustained in that altercation. The NFL’s investigators talked to people who witnessed that altercation and it was revealed that neither woman landed a punch on the other, they pulled each other’s hair but they never hit each other with a balled-up fist or in any other way.

    At least there is evidence that she had a fight with someone else. Where is the evidence that Zeke hit her?
    Like "hands up, don't shoot", it didn't happen. Her text messages prove it. She asked her fried to lie and say Elliot pulled her from the car.

    The NFL knows this.
    Jesus saves completely. http://www.climatedepot.com/ http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

    Titus 1

    For there are many insubordinate, both idle talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, whose mouths must be stopped

    Ephesians 5

    11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them. 12 For it is shameful even to speak of those things which are done by them in secret

  11. #131
    Journeyman JPPT1974's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Seymour TN
    Posts
    180
    Thanks
    14
    Thanked 42 Times in 28 Posts

    Blog Entries
    2384
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    13568
    First six weeks of Dallas Cowboys Games could depend on both Dak and Dez trying to carry the team!
    Solar Eclipse is Here!

  12. #132
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    San Luis Potosi,Mexico
    Posts
    9,504
    Thanks
    1,026
    Thanked 5,829 Times in 3,928 Posts

    Mentioned
    78 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    1816033
    Quote Originally Posted by JPPT1974 View Post
    First six weeks of Dallas Cowboys Games could depend on both Dak and Dez trying to carry the team!
    According to sources the decision of the NFL will be appealed. So it is possible that Zeke might play in some of the early games on the Boys' schedule.

  13. #133
    Out of Order Town Heretic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Within a whisper of rivers...
    Posts
    18,083
    Thanks
    2,501
    Thanked 5,428 Times in 3,197 Posts

    Blog Entries
    15
    Mentioned
    24 Post(s)
    Tagged
    3 Thread(s)


    Rep Power
    2147785
    They said it didn't factor, but you can't convince me that his conduct during St. Patrick's Day didn't factor into his credibility with denials on the point of a sexually charged accusation. I remember at the time thinking, "What sort of man feels free to expose a woman the way he did?" And the answer is a man who doesn't respect women and sees them as an extension of his ongoing self-gratification. That man is a time bomb. If he doesn't mature it's going to get worse.

    Looks like it got worse.
    You aren't what you eat, but you're always what you swallow.

    Pro-Life







  14. #134
    Black Rifles Matter Nick M's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    16,743
    Thanks
    637
    Thanked 8,582 Times in 5,855 Posts

    Mentioned
    37 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    2147787
    Quote Originally Posted by Town Heretic View Post
    I remember at the time thinking, "What sort of man feels free to expose a woman the way he did?"
    Ask Hillary.



    Dallas is out right now, unless the suspension is reduced greatly, to 2 games.
    Jesus saves completely. http://www.climatedepot.com/ http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

    Titus 1

    For there are many insubordinate, both idle talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, whose mouths must be stopped

    Ephesians 5

    11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them. 12 For it is shameful even to speak of those things which are done by them in secret

  15. #135
    TOL Subscriber Nihilo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    The North & the West
    Posts
    3,922
    Thanks
    666
    Thanked 844 Times in 706 Posts

    Mentioned
    7 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    185394
    Quote Originally Posted by Town Heretic View Post
    I thought you were talking about what Tom might yet add to his resume. Missed you telling me he likely won't. Glad to see us agreeing on the points then. Excellent. And when you even suggest Brady playing to 50 it's not really in keeping with that agreement. Like saying, "But suppose he grows an extra head." It's just not going to happen. No one has ever come close to that, let alone approaching it with anything in the tank that can be taken seriously.


    I've largely been addressing the GOAT myth that goes hand in hand with the media driven need for a "great one"
    Do you believe that Gretsky is "the great one?" It's off- and on-topic. Like your frequently mentioning athletes in other sports implicitly suggesting the implied claim of a strong analogy is valid, between great players of other sports, and any correlation between them and hardware/rings.
    Quote Originally Posted by Town Heretic View Post
    or, better yet, "GOAT" to be playing now and looking at the reality of the player and that golden aura that was crafted by ESPN.


    In fairness I was taking the list as presented and reordering it while noting other great qbs were off the board of that consideration because of the time cut-off. I've never said Brady is the second best qb of all time. I've largely considered him the second best of his generation, until recently. He's gained for me the way Jabbar's extended greatness gained for him with me.

    What I've actually said is that I think he and Peyton are a push, that Brees could be a serious competitor for his generation as well. Green Bay has a qb who might be as good as either and none of them are the GOAT.

    And while you once put Montana solidly in the lead more recently in our exchange you said you'd take Brady now over Montana in his prime.

    So who are you suggesting you'd take ahead of Brady again?
    Graham's the GOAT. With the NFL, getting longer in the tooth than the AAFC ever did, the question is posed because now we have seen a number of Graham-type performances of utter dominance by quarterbacks, that we have to wonder, who was/is the best ever at the position? QBs influence the games'/'s outcomes more than any other single player. It's a natural question.

    And Graham is the only obvious choice, because Graham led his team to so many championship games, firstly, and that Graham won so many of them, more than anybody else. The game has changed in many ways, like baseball, but also like baseball, the fundamental conflict of a football game has not changed . . . since the advent of the forward pass. Graham dominated the conflict, between the offense and the defense, two armies clashing directly with each other dozens of times per game, where the forward pass is a possibility.

    Calling Graham the GOAT is like calling the Beatles, or Elvis the GOAT. They are the GOATs because they were first. They discovered/invented the species, like Gretsky did. They were the firsts, to do any number of both strategic and tactical things, now taken for granted, for their ubiquity.

    To make the case for anybody else would involve some sort of "Madden" like video game imagination, and nobody can argue something like that firmly. Graham knew how to win championships, and Plan A is to first get to the championship, and that, Graham did each season of his career, and Plan B is to win the championship game, and Graham did that more than anybody else to play the position.
    Quote Originally Posted by Town Heretic View Post


    It would help if you wouldn't wait this long between postings. I consider and post as I come to a thing. You wait a week or better and it's a cold trail. I recall you repeatedly stating I was disparaging Brady, which is a peculiar charge from someone who thinks I hold him at number two on my all time list.
    I thought so too, and that's why I inquired.
    Quote Originally Posted by Town Heretic View Post
    And I think your Brady at 40 over Joe in his prime is a prime example of homerism over logic, given you also say you don't actually expect Brady to miss that wall sooner than later (and who knows, it could be this year
    I specified a whole Brady in my question.
    Quote Originally Posted by Town Heretic View Post
    ) to name a couple of points.

    Both of those positions are incongruous at worst and strained at best.

    So who is on your list, 1-10?
    The question is, who's going to win the game?

    Nick mentioned that if he had to pick a QB for one play, to win the championship being assumed, he'd go with Elway. My question is, one game, not one play.

    I know Joe's 4-for-4. And I know that during his whole prime years (what NFL players are truly healthy every game?) he was a 1-to-1-to-1.25-to-1, or a little less than a coin-flip, underdog to win the NFL championship, any given season. I'm assuming that I'd get that Joe. Meanwhile, I could also opt for Brady today, at 40, instead. I assume that he's whole, and that his odds of being injured in the championship game are the same as they are today, which is about 14-to-1 against anything happening at a season-ending severity level or worse. I discount it to ten times more likely, which is about 1-and-a-half-to-1, or 3-to-2 against, or, for EV purposes, this is him playing three-fifths of a game.

    Brady's won two of the last three NFL championships, IOW he's on a roll, right now. Odds that Joe will be on a roll? Coin flip, 50% chance, and if he is, then yes you win, but Brady's batting average in SB wins recently is 2-for-3, or 66.6% truncated winning percentage.

    The question is who's going to win the game. Is that really "homerism?" Brady literally, just orchestrated the single greatest comeback in the history of the NFL championship game. He's got the hot hand. Why do you think this is unreasonable, illogical, "homerism?"
    HE IS RISEN. Matthew 28:6 (KJV) Mark 16:6 (KJV) Luke 24:6 (KJV)

    487 What the Catholic faith believes about Mary is based on what it believes about Christ, and what it teaches about Mary illumines in turn its faith in Christ.

    "It's better to have a gun and need it, than not have a gun and not need it." Ricky

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
About us
Since 1997 TheologyOnline (TOL) has been one of the most popular theology forums on the internet. On TOL we encourage spirited conversation about religion, politics, and just about everything else.

follow us