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Thread: The disciples go blank on the death of Christ

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    The disciples go blank on the death of Christ

    Many people don't understand what happened to the disciples 'not understanding about the death of Christ and were afraid to ask about it.' They were in denial. It happens all the time to people. The disciples got this idea in their head that he was going to just forgive sins (no sacrifice involved). Some say this is due to passages/events such as the first exchange in which he proved his authority to forgive by a healing (Mk 2:10). "See, he can forgive, but there didn't need to be a death."

    But Christ was a package deal. He would reckon his death into his statements even though it was 3 years off. The disciples made all kinds of foolish mistakes.

    The text about not knowing or understanding is not so much theology as character arc. They were unwilling to accept that the whole thing was going that direction. And apparently they said 'we don't know what you are talking about' so much that there was no point in capturing conversation details! That's how denial is!

    This explains the force of Peter's denial. Not just that it happened, but that he persisted in it three times. They all had done so already. They all had stale Judaistic theology in their heads. It's called the fear of death. Ask anyone who is about to die, and you'll find that no matter how they have prepared, there is no preparation; you are shocked, and want 'out.'

    Then comes the 40 days. They are taught thoroughly that this was SUPPOSED to happen according to the prophets and that the cancellation of the debt of sin is now to be preached, even to Israel who nailed him to the cross!!! It is absolutely wonderful, grace, mercy and forgiveness.

    But to 2P2P it is a mess and is totally lost.

    They were certainly not taught about a kingdom for Israel, because that thought is snapped at Acts 1:8 and it never surfaces again. Their last mistake like that, it seems.

    Peter's message, explaining the noise of the Spirit, is just that. The people who nailed Christ did so in a set plan and foreknowledge that God was bringing a way of remitting sins. So it was not a LOSS!!! It was a victory!!! Of course, they were wrong to do so, but so were the brothers of Joseph to throw him in a pit for trade for money. It still ended in a victory.

    But this story and victory is lost to 2P2P because it has a separate story that is perfectly dull.

    This Jesus then gets put on the much-dreamed throne of David!!! And why not? Every title that can be named!!! There is nothing so amazing, so powerful, so intimately kind to the worst enemy, a story that applies to the whole universe! Peter powers on in the next speech with the assumption that Christ would return shortly and renovate everything about this world! That is how powerful the hope there is in the victory resurrection and enthronement of Christ! Yes it is a complete taste of the powers of the world to come (Heb 6:5) where everything will be right!

    But 2P2P turns it into regurgitated muck that no one would care for. Nothing damages the throb and passion of the Gospel like 2P2P. It is not just wrong on every exegesis, it is disgusting.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    Many people don't understand what happened to the disciples 'not understanding about the death of Christ and were afraid to ask about it.' They were in denial. It happens all the time to people. The disciples got this idea in their head that he was going to just forgive sins (no sacrifice involved). Some say this is due to passages/events such as the first exchange in which he proved his authority to forgive by a healing (Mk 2:10). "See, he can forgive, but there didn't need to be a death."

    But Christ was a package deal. He would reckon his death into his statements even though it was 3 years off. The disciples made all kinds of foolish mistakes.

    The text about not knowing or understanding is not so much theology as character arc. They were unwilling to accept that the whole thing was going that direction. And apparently they said 'we don't know what you are talking about' so much that there was no point in capturing conversation details! That's how denial is!

    This explains the force of Peter's denial. Not just that it happened, but that he persisted in it three times. They all had done so already. They all had stale Judaistic theology in their heads. It's called the fear of death. Ask anyone who is about to die, and you'll find that no matter how they have prepared, there is no preparation; you are shocked, and want 'out.'
    denial, is this how preterist reinterpret hidden from them ?


    Luk 9:44 Let these words sink down into your ears. For the Son of Man shall be betrayed into the hands of men.
    Luk 9:45 But they did not understand this, and it was hidden from them so that they did not perceive it. And they feared to ask Him of this word.

    Then comes the 40 days. They are taught thoroughly that this was SUPPOSED to happen according to the prophets and that the cancellation of the debt of sin is now to be preached, even to Israel who nailed him to the cross!!! It is absolutely wonderful, grace, mercy and forgiveness.
    even to Israel ?
    the 12 only preached to the circumcised .

    Paul is the only one preaching grace apart from the law to gentiles.

    But to 2P2P it is a mess and is totally lost.
    says the preterist

    They were certainly not taught about a kingdom for Israel, because that thought is snapped at Acts 1:8 and it never surfaces again. Their last mistake like that, it seems.
    kingdom used 126 times in the gospels to the circumcision audience .
    Peter's message, explaining the noise of the Spirit, is just that.

    The people who nailed Christ did so in a set plan and foreknowledge that God was bringing a way of remitting sins. So it was not a LOSS!!! It was a victory!!! Of course, they were wrong to do so, but so were the brothers of Joseph to throw him in a pit for trade for money. It still ended in a victory.

    But this story and victory is lost to 2P2P because it has a separate story that is perfectly dull.
    no , we understand Israel had the gospel preached to them first , refused and Paul was raised up to go
    to the gentiles which the 12 disciples could have done but didn't

    This Jesus then gets put on the much-dreamed throne of David!!! And why not? Every title that can be named!!! There is nothing so amazing, so powerful, so intimately kind to the worst enemy, a story that applies to the whole universe! Peter powers on in the next speech with the assumption that Christ would return shortly and renovate everything about this world! That is how powerful the hope there is in the victory resurrection and enthronement of Christ! Yes it is a complete taste of the powers of the world to come (Heb 6:5) where everything will be right!
    they even sold everything but Israel was cut off

    Act 2:45 And they sold their possessions and goods and distributed them to all, according as anyone had need.

    But 2P2P turns it into regurgitated muck that no one would care for. Nothing damages the throb and passion of the Gospel like 2P2P. It is not just wrong on every exegesis, it is disgusting.

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    Oh boy, a totally new subject to discuss!
    Jer 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD[YHVH], that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
    Jer 23:6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he[the Branch] shall be called, THE LORD[YHVH] OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

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    Quote Originally Posted by steko View Post
    Oh boy, a totally new subject to discuss!





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    IP, you certainly have one heck of an imagination - I'll give ya that much...

    Should you ever take that on the road, you might consider opening with the late, great, John Lennon's one size fits all - "Imagine"

    You may say I'm a dreamer
    But I'm not the only one
    I hope some day you'll join us
    And the world will be as one

    Hey, and you could close with Carly Simon's "Let The River Run!"

    Let the river run,
    let all dreamers
    wake the nation.
    Come, the New
    Jeru-sa-lem...

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    Quote Originally Posted by way 2 go View Post
    denial, is this how preterist reinterpret hidden from them ?


    Luk 9:44 Let these words sink down into your ears. For the Son of Man shall be betrayed into the hands of men.
    Luk 9:45 But they did not understand this, and it was hidden from them so that they did not perceive it. And they feared to ask Him of this word.


    even to Israel ?
    the 12 only preached to the circumcised .

    Paul is the only one preaching grace apart from the law to gentiles.



    says the preterist



    kingdom used 126 times in the gospels to the circumcision audience .


    no , we understand Israel had the gospel preached to them first , refused and Paul was raised up to go
    to the gentiles which the 12 disciples could have done but didn't



    they even sold everything but Israel was cut off

    Act 2:45 And they sold their possessions and goods and distributed them to all, according as anyone had need.






    There isn't any connection to preterism and I am not one.

    There is no preaching only to the circumcised except by mistake. Peter's recollection of his preaching is to Gentiles, Acts 15. Paul went to both. The circ vs uncirc is artificial distinction and there are not two gospels. The greatest 2P2P denial is to say there are two in Gal 2 when ch 1 just pronounced anathema for that!

    Peter absolutely preached the grace of God in forgiveness through Christ. You are just doing the 2P2P crock.

    There is a kingdom, but it is never a Davidic theocracy. Try to get up to speed on what is being discussed.

    I said "even to Israel" because Peter points at that in ch 2's speech.

    Thanks for saying Israel had the one Gospel preached to them. They did not all reject, but mostly they did. I never said otherwise.

    "They sold everything but Israel was cut off" Why did you say that?
    All Lives Matter --Marcus Sanford, youtube.com

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    IP is partially partial to Partial Preterism

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    I believe the disciples had a vision of an earthly kingdom as many Jews did. They were thinking Jesus would restore the OT Kingdom by kicking out the Romans and becoming an earthly King.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bradley D View Post
    I believe the disciples had a vision of an earthly kingdom as many Jews did. They were thinking Jesus would restore the OT Kingdom by kicking out the Romans and becoming an earthly King.
    And they were partly right.

    Only "not yet."

    Luke 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. 17:22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it. 17:23 And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them. 17:24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day. 17:25 But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation. 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

    Luke 24:19 And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people:

    24:20 And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him. 24:21 But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done.

    24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: 24:26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?

    1 Peter 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. 1:12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into. 1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

    Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. 1:10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

    Hebrews 2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    They were in denial.
    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    They can't compete with a real writer and grammar scholar
    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    You're too literal to get it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    The New Covenant preceded the Old Covenant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    There isn't any connection to preterism and I am not one.


    There is no preaching only to the circumcised except by mistake.
    Peter's recollection of his preaching is to Gentiles, Acts 15
    Peter acknowledge he went to gentiles in acts 15 once but
    the cutting off of Israel was in Acts 9

    Paul went to both. The circ vs uncirc is artificial distinction
    the 12 did not go to gentiles so it was a very real distinction.



    and there are not two gospels
    .

    not 2 gospels now.


    The greatest 2P2P denial is to say there are two in Gal 2 when ch 1 just pronounced anathema for that!
    you are in denial

    Gal 2:7 But on the contrary, seeing that I have been entrusted with the gospel of the uncircumcision, as Peter to the circumcision;
    Gal 2:8 for He working in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision also worked in me to the nations.

    Gal 2:11 But when Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was to be blamed.
    Gal 2:12 For before some came from James, he ate with the nations. But when they came, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing those of the circumcision.



    Peter absolutely preached the grace of God in forgiveness through Christ. You are just doing the 2P2P crock.
    Peter preached to the circumcision .



    There is a kingdom, but it is never a Davidic theocracy. Try to get up to speed on what is being discussed.
    slowing down for you /
    Act 15:16 "After this I will return and will build again the tabernacle of David which has fallen down; and I will build again its ruins, and I will set it up,

    as preterist...

    I said "even to Israel" because Peter points at that in ch 2's speech.
    no

    Thanks for saying Israel had the one Gospel preached to them. They did not all reject, but mostly they did. I never said otherwise.
    Jesus preached the kingdom gospel to all of Israel and they rejected it as a nation

    Jer 18:9 And if at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom that I will build and plant it,
    Jer 18:10 and if it does evil in my sight, not listening to my voice, then I will relent of the good that I had


    "They sold everything but Israel was cut off" Why did you say that?
    Peter powers on in the next speech with the assumption that Christ would return shortly and renovate everything about this world!
    an expectation to them Christ would return shortly , they sold everything

    Mat 16:27 For the Son of Man shall come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He shall reward each one according to his works.
    Mat 16:28 Truly I say to you, There are some standing here who shall not taste of death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bradley D View Post
    I believe the disciples had a vision of an earthly kingdom as many Jews did. They were thinking Jesus would restore the OT Kingdom by kicking out the Romans and becoming an earthly King.



    Yes, and it is interesting how many people agree with this as a sort of sunday school level treatment of things, but then reject it because of 2P2P. I mean they reject that it was the big mistake. It's actually what the violent Judiazers were trying to do when all hell broke loose in 66. Or at least most of it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by way 2 go View Post




    Peter acknowledge he went to gentiles in acts 15 once but
    the cutting off of Israel was in Acts 9



    the 12 did not go to gentiles so it was a very real distinction.



    .

    not 2 gospels now.



    you are in denial

    Gal 2:7 But on the contrary, seeing that I have been entrusted with the gospel of the uncircumcision, as Peter to the circumcision;
    Gal 2:8 for He working in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision also worked in me to the nations.

    Gal 2:11 But when Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was to be blamed.
    Gal 2:12 For before some came from James, he ate with the nations. But when they came, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing those of the circumcision.





    Peter preached to the circumcision .




    slowing down for you /
    Act 15:16 "After this I will return and will build again the tabernacle of David which has fallen down; and I will build again its ruins, and I will set it up,

    as preterist...



    no



    Jesus preached the kingdom gospel to all of Israel and they rejected it as a nation

    Jer 18:9 And if at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom that I will build and plant it,
    Jer 18:10 and if it does evil in my sight, not listening to my voice, then I will relent of the good that I had




    an expectation to them Christ would return shortly , they sold everything

    Mat 16:27 For the Son of Man shall come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He shall reward each one according to his works.
    Mat 16:28 Truly I say to you, There are some standing here who shall not taste of death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.


    Preterism usually means the belief the 2nd coming came in 70. I do not.

    In Acts 15 what matters is when Peter was referring to. He says merely some time ago. It doesn't matter when you think Israel failed, because God is no longer doing things with nations as such. Everything is through christ, rom 11:30.

    The nation's failure to believe led to the destruction of the country, but in a logical-inevitable sense.

    The distinction of circ v uncirc was real to the weak apostles. You must not be aware of the commission in the end of the synoptics and beginning of Acts: Jerusalem, Judea, the ends of the earth. The goal always was the ends of the earth.

    There never was 2 gospels. The grammar of Gal 2 does not support that because the Greek has case systems that clarify and the verb 'euangelizo' is the same one single gospel to each group. Total crock.

    Peter didn't know who might be there. Look at 2:14. converts.

    You're wrong on Acts 15:16. it is not futurist. It is about the Gentiles coming in to the faith and fellowship right then, right before their eyes. It is amos's 'after this' not James.

    There is no kingdom gospel, the one Gospel pertains to the kingdom, is part of it, is associated with it. He never meant it was about the kingdom and the Greek case system for prepositional phrases proves that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by way 2 go View Post
    ...

    ..in expectation - to them - that Christ would return shortly , they sold everything

    Mat 16:27 For the Son of Man shall come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He shall reward each one according to his works.
    Mat 16:28 Truly I say to you, There are some standing here who shall not taste of death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.
    Yep.

    Matthew 19:27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore? 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 19:29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life. 19:30 But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first.

    Luke 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. 17:22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it. 17:23 And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them. 17:24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day. 17:25 But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation. 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    The distinction of circ v uncirc was real to the weak apostles.
    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    They can't compete with a real writer and grammar scholar
    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    You're too literal to get it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    The New Covenant preceded the Old Covenant.

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