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Thread: We ourselves also are found sinners

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    Over 4000 post club Nihilo's Avatar
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    We ourselves also are found sinners

    Galatians 2:17 (KJV) for the quote. The Church must be treated under the law of the land the same as everyone else, and what I mean is that she can never be assumed to not sin, since she is made up of sinners; all of us, to a person. As sinners, the Church can never be licitly treated differently under any law of the land from any other sinners, which is, as the Church herself roundly teaches and believes, all of humankind. Therefore there is no earthly reason the Church should be treated differently under any law of the land, according to her.
    HE IS RISEN. Matthew 28:6 (KJV) Mark 16:6 (KJV) Luke 24:6 (KJV)

    487 . . . the Catholic faith . . . in Christ.

    "...things happen .. and you see the results in the fruits of the happening." Lahey

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nihilo View Post
    Galatians 2:17 (KJV) for the quote. The Church must be treated under the law of the land the same as everyone else, and what I mean is that she can never be assumed to not sin, since she is made up of sinners; all of us, to a person. As sinners, the Church can never be licitly treated differently under any law of the land from any other sinners, which is, as the Church herself roundly teaches and believes, all of humankind. Therefore there is no earthly reason the Church should be treated differently under any law of the land, according to her.
    Did something specific prompt this post? Is someone arguing that the Church should be treated differently?


    PS - I saw the video of your avatar. So funny.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kmoney View Post
    Did something specific prompt this post? Is someone arguing that the Church should be treated differently?
    No. The Body of Christ oughtn't be given a pass in any way in this world, that's justice. If a pagan/atheist or other type of religionist is granted a mercy then the Christian should too, and if the Christian is forbidden from doing something or saying something then everybody else should also be so forbidden. Christians are as capable of grave trespasses and crimes as anybody else, nothing excluded. I don't know what prompted the thought though.
    Quote Originally Posted by kmoney View Post
    PS - I saw the video of your avatar. So funny.
    There wasn't much not to like.
    HE IS RISEN. Matthew 28:6 (KJV) Mark 16:6 (KJV) Luke 24:6 (KJV)

    487 . . . the Catholic faith . . . in Christ.

    "...things happen .. and you see the results in the fruits of the happening." Lahey

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    If the Church and we as Christians should confess, be held accountable and ask God's forgiveness from sin - how then can conservative Christians support a president who has stated publicly that he doesn't see the need for his confession, accountability and God's forgiveness from sin?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jgarden View Post
    If the Church and we as Christians should confess, be held accountable and ask God's forgiveness from sin - how then can conservative Christians support a president who has stated publicly that he doesn't see the need for his confession, accountability and God's forgiveness from sin?
    Is President Trump less of a sinner or more of a sinner than we are, or than Hillary Clinton is? "We ourselves also are found sinners" (Ga2:17KJV). We are all dirty rats (Saint John W); there's no such thing as a cleaner rat among us. We believe that President Trump will do more good than Hillary Clinton would have done, and we will do whatever we can, to ensure that we're found to be right.
    HE IS RISEN. Matthew 28:6 (KJV) Mark 16:6 (KJV) Luke 24:6 (KJV)

    487 . . . the Catholic faith . . . in Christ.

    "...things happen .. and you see the results in the fruits of the happening." Lahey

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    Quote Originally Posted by jgarden View Post


    If the Church and we as Christians should confess, be held accountable and ask God's forgiveness from sin - how then can conservative Christians support a president who has stated publicly that he doesn't see the need for his confession, accountability and God's forgiveness from sin?
    Are they supporting his theology or his politics?

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    Quote Originally Posted by kmoney View Post
    Are they supporting his theology or his politics?
    Jesus Saves? Trump Doesn’t Think So.

    Trump has hinted that Carson’s redemption story is ‘pathological’—and hard-core evangelicals are sure to take note.

    Spoiler

    “I will be the greatest representative of Christians they’ve had in a long time,” Donald Trump told CBN News last May.

    His favorite book might well be the Holy Bible, but the truth is the billionaire casino magnate may know no god greater than himself. In a recent round of attacks on Ben Carson, Trump appears to question the most central tenant of Christianity: that Jesus paid the price for our sins and with that comes an unqualified guarantee of redemption for those who believe.

    For his part, Trump (and political prognosticators) may not even recognize the gravity of the mistake. Christian conservatives, who see their politics through the lens of their faith, won’t miss it.

    Without uttering the actual words, Trump questions the very validity of Carson’s claim to an early divine intervention—one that Carson says paved the road for his personal redemption, healing, and success. Evangelicals, who remain a commanding force in Republican politics, believe in the redemptive power of Christ—the same Jesus that Carson credits for his personal deliverance and transformation as a young man.

    It’s becoming increasingly clear that Trump does not buy into that notion or, if he does, it comes with qualifications.

    On Thursday night, during a rambling 95-minute speech in Iowa, and in various television interviews, Trump accused Carson of having a “pathological disease” and said healing those ills would be impossible. He likened it to an attempt to reform a “child molester.” The assertion, which Trump continues to repeat, runs contrary to the core of Christian theology: I can do all things through Christ. With God, all things are possible.

    Later, in a chilling Instagram video published Friday morning, Trump re-upped his attacks on the retired neurosurgeon—who currently leads the field in several national and early state polls. The ad, titled “Friday the 13th,” uses Carson’s own words to paint him as either a pathological liar or a Willie Horton-esque murderous rogue whose temper cannot be taken lightly.

    While every other GOP contender chose to stay out of the fray, Trump—seeing his political fortunes slip away—went after Carson. But challenging Carson, who remains the most trusted and admired candidate in the GOP field, on those terms is a gambit that will almost certainly backfire.

    It’s a compelling story, for sure—wayward black boy, raised on the hard streets of Detroit by a single mother who put together piecemeal jobs to eke out a living and see him off to Yale. Carson talks a lot about the value of hard work. Struggle and redemption are central to the Carson promise: The American Dream is alive for those who truly want it.

    Carson’s personal narrative vaulted him into the top tier. Clearly, Trump would like nothing better than to turn the surgeon’s own knife against him. However, assaults to his integrity and questions about Carson’s personal biography have been met with a flood of campaign contributions.

    But if you listen closely, you’ll hear Carson say something else: Ask God, believe it and He will deliver you.

    Carson, as he outlines in his many books, believes that power is without limit. We are talking about a man who believes in the Resurrection. If God can raise a man who was crucified on a hill called Golgotha from the grave, could he not also touch and redeem a black boy suffering from anger issues in Detroit?

    By targeting Carson on that central point, the former reality show star turned presidential candidate tips his cards on matters of faith. Trump, who touts his support among Christians, may have unwittingly told them: You cannot trust Ben Carson. And you cannot trust God.



    http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...esn-t-think-so
    HE IS RISEN. Matthew 28:6 (KJV) Mark 16:6 (KJV) Luke 24:6 (KJV)

    487 . . . the Catholic faith . . . in Christ.

    "...things happen .. and you see the results in the fruits of the happening." Lahey

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nihilo View Post
    Jesus Saves? Trump Doesn’t Think So.

    Trump has hinted that Carson’s redemption story is ‘pathological’—and hard-core evangelicals are sure to take note.

    Spoiler

    “I will be the greatest representative of Christians they’ve had in a long time,” Donald Trump told CBN News last May.

    His favorite book might well be the Holy Bible, but the truth is the billionaire casino magnate may know no god greater than himself. In a recent round of attacks on Ben Carson, Trump appears to question the most central tenant of Christianity: that Jesus paid the price for our sins and with that comes an unqualified guarantee of redemption for those who believe.

    For his part, Trump (and political prognosticators) may not even recognize the gravity of the mistake. Christian conservatives, who see their politics through the lens of their faith, won’t miss it.

    Without uttering the actual words, Trump questions the very validity of Carson’s claim to an early divine intervention—one that Carson says paved the road for his personal redemption, healing, and success. Evangelicals, who remain a commanding force in Republican politics, believe in the redemptive power of Christ—the same Jesus that Carson credits for his personal deliverance and transformation as a young man.

    It’s becoming increasingly clear that Trump does not buy into that notion or, if he does, it comes with qualifications.

    On Thursday night, during a rambling 95-minute speech in Iowa, and in various television interviews, Trump accused Carson of having a “pathological disease” and said healing those ills would be impossible. He likened it to an attempt to reform a “child molester.” The assertion, which Trump continues to repeat, runs contrary to the core of Christian theology: I can do all things through Christ. With God, all things are possible.

    Later, in a chilling Instagram video published Friday morning, Trump re-upped his attacks on the retired neurosurgeon—who currently leads the field in several national and early state polls. The ad, titled “Friday the 13th,” uses Carson’s own words to paint him as either a pathological liar or a Willie Horton-esque murderous rogue whose temper cannot be taken lightly.

    While every other GOP contender chose to stay out of the fray, Trump—seeing his political fortunes slip away—went after Carson. But challenging Carson, who remains the most trusted and admired candidate in the GOP field, on those terms is a gambit that will almost certainly backfire.

    It’s a compelling story, for sure—wayward black boy, raised on the hard streets of Detroit by a single mother who put together piecemeal jobs to eke out a living and see him off to Yale. Carson talks a lot about the value of hard work. Struggle and redemption are central to the Carson promise: The American Dream is alive for those who truly want it.

    Carson’s personal narrative vaulted him into the top tier. Clearly, Trump would like nothing better than to turn the surgeon’s own knife against him. However, assaults to his integrity and questions about Carson’s personal biography have been met with a flood of campaign contributions.

    But if you listen closely, you’ll hear Carson say something else: Ask God, believe it and He will deliver you.

    Carson, as he outlines in his many books, believes that power is without limit. We are talking about a man who believes in the Resurrection. If God can raise a man who was crucified on a hill called Golgotha from the grave, could he not also touch and redeem a black boy suffering from anger issues in Detroit?

    By targeting Carson on that central point, the former reality show star turned presidential candidate tips his cards on matters of faith. Trump, who touts his support among Christians, may have unwittingly told them: You cannot trust Ben Carson. And you cannot trust God.



    http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...esn-t-think-so
    That was back in 2015....then the evangelicals went and voted him into office.

    They did so because they think he is more sympathetic to people of faith than Clinton is.

  10. The Following User Says Thank You to glorydaz For Your Post:

    Nihilo (May 17th, 2017)

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    Quote Originally Posted by jgarden View Post


    If the Church and we as Christians should confess, be held accountable and ask God's forgiveness from sin - how then can conservative Christians support a president who has stated publicly that he doesn't see the need for his confession, accountability and God's forgiveness from sin?
    We weren't voting for a Pastor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by glorydaz View Post
    We weren't voting for a Pastor.
    No, you were voting for Trump.

    A man who's entire career has been one comprised of a life-long political and financial corruption; incompetence and its' cover up; all in the service of his severely out of touch with reality - narcissism.

    And the man is simply incapable of uttering three words without setting himself off into one lie after another.

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    Nihilo, interesting that you brought up that passage there in Galatians 2..

    There is an irony here...

    What the Apostle Paul is addressing there is the issue he mentions came up via Peter and company, in their dissimulation, or hypocrisy.

    How that Peter and company had basically pulled a version of what Trump and company, have tried to pull.

    Peter and company there had tried to force a ban on mixing with Gentiles for religious reasons.

    Paul was basically reminding them that they had been proven no better off religiously by the Law of Moses, then the Gentiles and their pagan ways, that Peter and company were being hypocrites towards.

    Just goes to show how timely the Scripture remains, some two thousand years later, other than in the hands of the ever extremist, and so called, religious right...

    More like TOO OFTEN religious WRONG.

    __________

    For those so inclined, the following is basically the context of Galations 2.

    Acts 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved. 15:2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question. 15:3 And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren. 15:4 And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them. 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. 15:6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter. 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the LORD Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they. 15:12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them. 15:13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me: 15:14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. 15:15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, 15:16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: 15:17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. 15:19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:

    Galatians 2:11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. 2:12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision. 2:13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation. 2:14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews? 2:15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. 2:18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

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    @Danoh

    So long as you believe, which I am almost certain that you do, that the Lord Jesus Christ rose from the dead on the third day, we are siblings.

    Re: Galatians 2:17 (KJV) Paul writes, "But if . . . we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid." He asks the question, because we ourselves also (your point about context---who are "we?" I submit that it is either 1) Judeans 2) Apostles 3) the Church) ARE found sinners. Whomever he meant by "we," is beside my point, that somebody themselves also ARE found sinners. Sinning is happening, either among 1) Judeans 2) Apostles 3) the Body of Christ. And even if we take the IMO unfounded view that Paul is merely postulating a hypothetical, and that 1) Judeans 2) Apostles 3) the Church themselves/ourselves also are NOT found sinners, what does Paul then say? He says, "Is therefore Christ the minister of sin?" Even if the IMO unfounded view that Paul is merely postulating a hypothetical, and that 1) Judeans 2) Apostles 3) the Body of Christ themselves/ourselves also are NOT found sinners, is the correct view, then what would it mean if they/us themselves/ourselves also ARE found sinners? "Is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid."

    I think he is here talking about 2) Apostles or 3) the Body of Christ, but my conclusion still holds if he means by "we" 1) Judeans, and that additionally he is only saying what he says elsewhere, in more words, "Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, 27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish."

    "Is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid."

    HE IS RISEN. Matthew 28:6 (KJV) Mark 16:6 (KJV) Luke 24:6 (KJV)

    487 . . . the Catholic faith . . . in Christ.

    "...things happen .. and you see the results in the fruits of the happening." Lahey

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