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Thread: When does the biblical day begin?

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    Quote Originally Posted by WeberHome View Post
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    The Lord's last supper may not have been "the" Passover, but nevertheless it was a Passover.

    Matt 26:17-20 . . On the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, the disciples came to Jesus and asked: Where do you want us to make preparations for you to eat the Passover?

    Mark 14:12-17 . . On the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, when it was customary to sacrifice the Passover lamb, Jesus' disciples asked him: Where do you want us to go and make preparations for you to eat the Passover?

    Luke 22:7-13 . .Then came the day of Unleavened Bread on which the Passover lamb had to be sacrificed. Jesus sent Peter and John, saying: Go and make preparations for us to eat the Passover.

    Luke 22:14-16 . .When the hour came, Jesus and his apostles reclined at the table. And he said to them: I have eagerly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer. For I tell you, I will not eat it again until it finds fulfillment in the kingdom of God.





    I think you meant John 13:29, which reads like this:

    "Since Judas had charge of the money, some thought Jesus was telling him to buy what was needed for the feast, or to give something to the poor.

    The word "Passover" is nowhere in that verse. The "feast" in view is the seven-day feast of unleavened bread which includes, and commences with, the Passover meal. The Lord's dinner was fully prepared; they needed nothing more for it, but there is no indication that he and his men had enough provisions for the rest of the feast; viz: the week ahead.
    Yes thanks for the correction on the verse count will edit it...

    So you would have all then who kept detailed accounts of times and festivals be wrong rather than yourself...

    The Lord's supper was not a passover for other reasons you ignore...


    [What therefore is the difference between saying Elohim created the heavens and the earth, and all that is within them, in six hours as opposed to six full twenty-four hour days? The real difference is that six full twenty-four hour days must necessarily include twelve hours of night in between each creation day of light. This means that either Elohim paused for twelve hours each time between creation days, (), or that Elohim also spoke creation into existence during darkness and it took Him an hundred forty-four hours to speak what we read in the first chapter of Genesis, (). But if you see what I have said herein above then perhaps you will see it much easier to believe that Elohim spoke creation into existence in six consecutive yamim-hours of spoken Word, without pause and in pure clear bright light of this one great day of creation, (having already divided the darkness and set it aside unto the nightfall). Therefore the seventh hour is the daily Shabbat hour of every day, (and according to the prayer time hours this makes the seventh hour daily Shabbat the tenth hour on the sundial, lol, (see Joh=Verdana]The Jews' religious calendar was somehow running a day late that year, and good thing too. Apparently it was God's wishes that His son be crucified during preparation day, which is the day that the covenant requires Jews to remove of any and all traces of leavened bread from their homes and also to slaughter and roast lambs with fire ready to eat by sundown for the Passover dinner that night. Had the Jews known the correct date, they likely wouldn't have crucified Jesus on time.

    Matt 26:3-5 . .Then the chief priests and the elders of the people assembled in the palace of the high priest, whose name was Caiaphas, and they plotted to arrest Jesus in some sly way and kill him. But not during the feast-- they said --or there may be a riot among the people.

    Due to their religious calendar's error, the Jews inadvertently crucified Jesus on the very day they wanted to avoid.

    /
    [/font]
    He was killed before the feast when the actual lambs were being killed...

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    Quote Originally Posted by jamie View Post
    When was he buried?
    As fast as His followers could before the Sabbath coming in the morning...

    You really think there was literally enough time for all to have transpired before it was sundown?

    Going to ask permission of the court...having them confirm He was dead...have you EVER dealt with government offices before a holiday?

    Takes forever if at all...LOL

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    Quote Originally Posted by clefty View Post
    So He lied about the third day rising?
    What?

    When was Jesus laid in the tomb?

    Does scripture say?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jamie View Post
    What?

    When was Jesus laid in the tomb?

    Does scripture say?
    Yes laid in the tomb after He was dead before He rose...you think it was before sundown...but weekly Sabbath began the following morning...the full moon assisted their labors

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    Quote Originally Posted by clefty View Post
    Because the Lord's supper was not the Passover.
    So these words in 'bold" have nothing to do with the Apostles eating the passover with the Lord Jesus?:

    "Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed. And he sent Peter and John, saying, Go and prepare us the passover, that we may eat. And they said unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare? And he said unto them, Behold, when ye are entered into the city, there shall a man meet you, bearing a pitcher of water; follow him into the house where he entereth in. And ye shall say unto the goodman of the house, The Master saith unto thee, Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples? And he shall shew you a large upper room furnished: there make ready. And they went, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover. And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him. And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer...And as they sat and did eat, Jesus said, Verily I say unto you, One of you which eateth with me shall betray me"
    (Lk.22:7-15;Mk.14:18).

    If you ever had any credibility on this forum in the past then you no longer have any. It is absolutely ridiculous to argue that they did not eat the passover.

    Quote Originally Posted by clefty View Post
    After eating Judas gets up and the disciples all think he is to go buy something for the passover the next night... John 13:39
    No, they thought that he was going out to buy something for the "feast of unleavened bread," which came the day after the passover (Lev.23:5-6).

    Quote Originally Posted by clefty View Post
    No lamb was mentioned no bitter herbs...and Wine was present none is commanded in exodus...and the bread broken was leavened bread not unleavened...Artos in greek not azymos...(this is still a schism between east and west churches)
    No lamb mentioned? You have got to be out of your mind if you do not think that this is referring to the passover lamb:

    "Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed" (Lk.2:27).

    Also, notice that the day referred to here is the "day of unleavened bread" but despite that you say that they were not eating unleavened bread!

    Quote Originally Posted by clefty View Post
    John 18:28 Has the authorities not wishing to enter a goyim court lest they be defiled to celebrate the Passover later that day...

    So the last supper was the night before the next day when the lambs were killed and eaten that same day...
    They were not worried about becoming defiled by eating the passover which was eaten in the evening because after the sun goes down they could not become ceremonially defiled:

    "And when the sun is down, he shall be clean, and shall afterward eat of the holy things; because it is his food" (Lev.22:7).

    The "passover" at John 18;28 is in regard to the passover offerings which were sacrificed during the day in the temple on the first day of the "feast of unleavened bread":

    "And stand in the holy place...And Josiah gave to the people, of the flock, lambs and kids, all for the passover offerings...the rulers of the house of God, gave unto the priests for the passover offerings two thousand and six hundred small cattle, and three hundred oxen" (2 Chron.35:5,7,8).

    The only animal which was eaten on the 14th in the evening were lambs. But here we see that cattle and oxen were passover offerings. Again, these passover offerings were in regard to the offerings of the first day of the feast of unleavened bread.

    Of course if you cannot even understand that the Lord Jesus ate the passover meal as described at Luke 22:7-15 with His Apostles then the rest of this will be way, way, way above your head.
    Last edited by Jerry Shugart; February 27th, 2017 at 11:28 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by clefty View Post
    Yes laid in the tomb after He was dead before He rose...you think it was before sundown...but weekly Sabbath began the following morning...the full moon assisted their labors
    He went to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus. Then he took it down, wrapped it in a linen cloth and placed it in a tomb cut out of the rock where no one had yet been buried.

    It was the day of preparation and the Sabbath was beginning. (Luke 23:52-54 NET)

    And there you have it. The Sabbath began as Jesus was laid in the tomb.

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    POSIT: Nicodemus and Joseph of Arimathaea didn't have enough time to return to the city, locate Pilate, obtain an audience, round up a hundred-pound weight of spices, return to the crucifixion site, get the body down off the cross, and prepare it for burial all before sundown.

    RESPONSE: Christ is recorded as expiring around the ninth hour (Matt 27:46-50, Mark 15:34-37, Luke 23:44-46) which corresponds to 3:00 pm. The Jews of that era began their civil day at 06:00 AM and wrapped at 06:00 PM, a total of twelve hours. (John 11:19). So his friends had three hours to go before the official end of daytime.

    Jerusalem 2,000 years ago in Christ's era wasn't the sprawling metropolis it is now. If you check a National Geographic map of the old city's boundaries compared to the modern, you'll note a significant difference.

    Some people seem to be under the impression that the site where Christ was crucified was a great journey from Jerusalem, but I've no doubt it was just outside town considering that condemned men had to lug crosses to their own executions after having been flogged and pummeled to within an inch of their lives, it's my guess the distance wasn't all that great or they wouldn't make it. (cf. John 19:1-3, Isa 52:14)

    John 19:20 . . The place where Jesus was crucified was near the city

    Finding and petitioning Pilate was the easy part. His palace was right next to the fortress of Antonia, which itself was situated near the Temple in Jerusalem and he readily agreed to release Jesus' body after confirming his demise; no argument.

    And the cemetery itself was conveniently situated adjacent to the crucifixion site.

    John 19:41-42 . . Now in the place where he was crucified there was a garden. There laid they Jesus

    Critics don't think three hours is adequate, but that's their hang-up, not mine. There are always going to be skeptics about the events of Christ's crucifixion similar to those who cannot bring themselves to believe that Lee Harvey Oswald had enough time to get off all three of the shots fired at JFK; but to this day; no one has been able to prove he didn't.

    POSIT: You fail to consider how long it would have taken to prepare the Lord's body. Tell me, have you ever washed up a dead body covered in blood etc to make it presentable?

    RESPONSE: Christ was buried under severe time constraints because of the Jews' impending Passover which commenced that night at sundown . However; the Bible makes no mention that Jesus' friends made him "presentable" I mean, after all, they just wanted to get him buried before sundown; which is actually a requirement stipulated in the covenant that Yhvh's people agreed upon with God as per the Old Testament.

    Deut 21:22-23 . . If a man guilty of a capital offense is put to death and his body is hung on a tree, you must not leave his body on the tree overnight. Be sure to bury him that same day, because anyone who is hung on a tree is under God's curse. (cf. Gal 3:13)

    It wasn't their goal to groom the Lord for public viewing in a Vatican rotunda. In point of fact, they chose to bury him where they did to save time.

    John 19:42 . . There laid they Jesus therefore because of the Jews' preparation day; for the sepulcher was nigh at hand.

    /

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    Quote Originally Posted by clefty View Post
    I believe what I am convinced of and usually from scripture...this six hours creation thingy needs more explaination...so have at it...

    I am sure someone is going to talk about the darkness that fell over the land as another night and day to pad the 3 x 3 numbers...

    Wait for it...
    Actually that is foretold right there in Exodus 14 where day turns to night and the Sea of Reeds is parted. But of course you would need to be at the other end of the week to see how it completes Pesakh-Matzot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by daqq View Post
    Actually that is foretold right there in Exodus 14 where day turns to night and the Sea of Reeds is parted. But of course you would need to be at the other end of the week to see how it completes Pesakh-Matzot.
    The day turned into darkness because around that time the volcanic Island of Santorini or Thira as it is also known, which was situated in the Aegean sea, on the Anatolian plate, which is subject to the forces of the over-riding African Plate that grinds against the Arabian plate in it’s Northern migration, exploded with many times the force of Krakatoa, which was a volcanic island that exploded in 1883, and that explosion was heard 5,000 kilometres away, and caused a tsunami that killed at least 36,000 people. It has been estimated that when the island of Santorini exploded, 35,000 kilometres of material was lifted into the stratosphere, and that the explosive force would have created tidal waves of anything up to 130ft high which would have travelled at speeds of around 150 miles per hour.

    A cloud, that turned day into night around 1,500 BC, has been recorded in Chinese history, and would have covered all of north Africa.

    The African and Arabian plates intersect in a line that runs through the Red Sea and up the Jordan valley through the Dead Sea, which was created hundreds of years before the explosion of Santorini, when violent underground activity destroyed the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, which were then situated in the Jordan valley and in the days of Lot, that area was described, as like unto the garden of the Lord, with abundant fresh water flowing through it.

    Look at the strange phenomenon that was occurring at the time of the Exodus. The cloud that blanketed north Africa and most of Europe, and turned day into a night so dark that a man was not able to recognise his own brother who was standing at arms length from him. The rain of sulfuric acid that caused so much crop failure and the death of the live stock which were forced to feed on the polluted pastures, the following series of shock waves along the great rift valley and the fractures in the Sini peninsular which is situated on the Arabian plate, the bulging of the earth’s crust beneath the Red Sea which caused a highway to rise from the waters, with it’s following tremor when it collapsed and tidal waves that rolled in like two walls of water on either side of where the highway had been.

    Wisdom of Solomon 19: 7-8, ‘Then was beheld the cloud that shadowed the camp, and dry land rising up out of what was before water, Out of the Red sea an unhindered highway, and a grassy plain rising out of the violent surge.”

    Look even where the Israelites camped on the shore of the Red sea, which was smack bang in the middle of a major coal field in Egypt. The bulging earth rising from the surging sea before them, pressurised gas screaming from the opening fissures creating towering pillars of fire to burn behind them, a strong east wind blew all that night causing the thick smoke to blind the pursuing Egyptians while lighting up the camp of the Israelites on the eastern side of those wild fires.

    All these events were caused from pressures that had been built up over tens of thousands of years and would have occurred in their proper time, irrelevant of the Israeli situation. Where the miracle lay, was in the fact that an unseen deity was able, through his prophet Moses, to organise the events leading up to and including the exodus itself at the precise time in history that this cataclysmic event occurred .

    Solomon has much to say about the days of Moses; he speaks of the strange hails that fell from heaven. Burning balls of frozen gases, some with the ability to burn even in water, some which burned with a heat so intense that they incinerated anything they came in contact with, while other hail, burned with a cold fire through which animals could walk unharmed.

    Different gases burn with different heat.

    Solomon also speaks of the cloud that covered the Israelites in the desert and of the Manna that fell from heaven during the night. According to Solomon, the heavenly covering was a cloud by day and a host of stars by night, (a night sky ablaze with falling balls of burning hail stones). Then concerning the heavenly Manna, he says, “And that which was not injured by fire, simply warmed by a faint sun beam melted away.

    Each morning the desert floor was covered with a film of a flaky cellulose substance, which looked like coriander seed, and would melt and breed worms and stink if left out in the sun, and yet could be preserved when cooked, and tasted like biscuits mixed with the purest of olive oils.

    Carbohydrates are any of a group of chemical compounds, including sugars, starches, and cellulose, containing carbon, hydrogen, and oxygen only, with the ratio of hydrogen to oxygen atoms usually 2 : 1; of which there was an abundant supply up in the stratosphere.

    Perhaps, if our scientists could simulate the same conditions that occurred in the stratosphere when the island of Thira exploded, they may come up with an inexpensive and environmentally friendly source of food production to feed the starving millions on the earth.

    The early Egyptian magicians or scientists, were able to duplicate some of the miracles of God as performed by Moses. Wouldn’t it be wonderful if our magician/scientists of today were able to perform the more mysterious of God’s miracles as seen in the days of Moses, and provide an abundant and cheap source of food to feed the ever growing population on this earth.

    As I have already said, all those things that happened in Egypt at that time, were caused from pressures that had built up over many, many, thousands of years. Where the miracle is found, is in the fact that some invisible entity from some higher time dimension, was able to instigate the Exodus, at the precise time that the destructive forces beneath the island of Santorini, were beginning to awake.

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    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WeberHome View Post
    RESPONSE: Christ was buried under severe time constraints because of the Jews' impending Passover which commenced that night at sundown .
    So these words in "bold" have nothing to do with the Apostles eating the passover with the Lord Jesus?:

    "Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed. And he sent Peter and John, saying, Go and prepare us the passover, that we may eat. And they said unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare? And he said unto them, Behold, when ye are entered into the city, there shall a man meet you, bearing a pitcher of water; follow him into the house where he entereth in. And ye shall say unto the goodman of the house, The Master saith unto thee, Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples? And he shall shew you a large upper room furnished: there make ready. And they went, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover. And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him. And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer...And as they sat and did eat, Jesus said, Verily I say unto you, One of you which eateth with me shall betray me"
    (Lk.22:7-15;Mk.14:18).
    Last edited by Jerry Shugart; February 28th, 2017 at 11:08 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    So these words in "bold" have nothing to do with the Apostles eating the passover with the Lord Jesus?:

    "Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed. And he sent Peter and John, saying, Go and prepare us the passover, that we may eat. And they said unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare? And he said unto them, Behold, when ye are entered into the city, there shall a man meet you, bearing a pitcher of water; follow him into the house where he entereth in. And ye shall say unto the goodman of the house, The Master saith unto thee, Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples? And he shall shew you a large upper room furnished: there make ready. And they went, and found as he had said unto them: and they made ready the passover. And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him. And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer...And as they sat and did eat, Jesus said, Verily I say unto you, One of you which eateth with me shall betray me"
    (Lk.22:7-15;Mk.14:18).
    Good one Jerry.

    Numbers 28: 16; The Passover Festival in honour of the Lord, is to be held on the 14th day of the first month.

    Concerning the day of Passover, the Lord says in Exodus 12: 14; “You must celebrate ‘THIS DAY’*as a religious festival to remind you of what I, the Lord have done, Celebrate it (One day)*for all time to come.

    Numbers 28: 16; On the fifteenth day a religious festival begins which lasts seven days, during which, only unleavened bread is to be eaten. On the first day of the seven day festival of unleavened bread, (The 15th day of Abib) you are to gather for worship and no work is to be done………………. On the last day (The 21st of Abib) you must meet for worship and do no work.

    Numbers 33: 3; the people of Israel left Egypt on the 15th day of the first month of the year, the DAY AFTER the first Passover.

    The Jews may have abandoned God’s one day festival of Passover, and incorporated it into their first of the seven day Festival of Unleavened Bread, but not Jesus. He kept it on the day commanded by the Lord, the evening of the 14 day of Abib.

    There was no slaughtered lamb that night, because Jesus was the fulfilment of the sacrificial Lamb, and he offered his symbolic body to his disciples, Luke 22:19-20; 19*And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me.”

    20*In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.

    The fact that it was the Passover meal that he ate with his disciples, is verified, as you have said, in Luke 22: 15; where Jesus said to his disciples; “I have wanted so much to eat this Passover meal with you before I suffer, etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    So these words in "bold" have nothing to do with the Apostles eating the passover with the Lord Jesus?
    According to Matt 26:17-20, Mark 14:12-17, Luke 22:7-13, and Luke 22:14-16, Jesus ate his Passover dinner the night of his arrest.

    According to John 13:1-2, John 18:28-29, and John 19:13-14, the Jews ate their own Passover dinner after Jesus was dead and buried.

    Failure to discern the time difference between Jesus' Passover dinner and the Jews' Passover dinner invariably leads to unnecessary quarrelling and confusion.

    /

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    POSIT: Certain women arrived at the cemetery before the sun came up and found Jesus gone. Therefore he must have risen from the dead Saturday night instead of Sunday morning at daybreak as some have proposed.

    RESPONSE: Had Christ risen from the dead before sunrise Sunday morning, his recovery would have taken place during nighttime; but according to Matt 17:22-23, Mark 9:31, Luke 9:22, Luke 24:12-24, Luke 24:41-46, Acts 10:39-41, and 1Cor 15:4 his recovery did not take place at night; rather, during day.

    Below is a popular "proof text" among night-resurrection proponents.

    John 20:1 . . Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene went to the tomb and saw that the stone had been removed from the entrance.

    But that isn't the only information we're given. There's more.

    Matt 28:1 . . After the Sabbath, at dawn on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to look at the tomb.

    Mark 16:2-3 . .Very early on the first day of the week, just after sunrise, they were on their way to the tomb and they asked each other: Who will roll the stone away from the entrance of the tomb?

    Luke 24:1 . . On the first day of the week, very early in the morning, the women took the spices they had prepared and went to the tomb.

    By combining Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John it's readily seen that the women left home as the sun was coming up, and by the time they arrived at the cemetery, it was full up. In other words: John doesn't say Magdalene arrived in the dark. His words "went to the tomb" indicate travel rather than arrival.

    FY: We're talking about holy women here; not kooks. Normal women don't, as a rule, prowl graveyards at night. None I know anyway.

    /

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    Quote Originally Posted by S-word View Post
    There was no slaughtered lamb that night, because Jesus was the fulfilment of the sacrificial Lamb, and he offered his symbolic body to his disciples, Luke 22:19-20; 19*And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me.”

    "And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?" (Mk.14:12).

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    Quote Originally Posted by WeberHome View Post
    According to John 13:1-2, John 18:28-29, and John 19:13-14, the Jews ate their own Passover dinner after Jesus was dead and buried.
    In regard to John 18:28-29 they were not worried about becoming defiled by eating the passover which was eaten in the evening of the 14th because after the sun goes down they could not become ceremonially defiled:

    "And when the sun is down, he shall be clean, and shall afterward eat of the holy things; because it is his food" (Lev.22:7).

    The "passover" at John 18;28 is in regard to the passover offerings which were sacrificed during the day in the temple on the first day of the "feast of unleavened bread":

    "And stand in the holy place...And Josiah gave to the people, of the flock, lambs and kids, all for the passover offerings...the rulers of the house of God, gave unto the priests for the passover offerings two thousand and six hundred small cattle, and three hundred oxen"
    (2 Chron.35:5,7,8).

    The only animal which was eaten on the 14th in the evening were lambs. But here we see that cattle and oxen were passover offerings. Again, these passover offerings were in regard to the offerings of the first day of the feast of unleavened bread.

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