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    Quote Originally Posted by Lazy afternoon View Post
    Freelight,

    Do you believe the necessity of the blood sacrifice of Christ to save you from your sins and from Gods wrath.


    LA
    Quote Originally Posted by marhig View Post
    What do you mean by blood sacrifice? Thanks
    The sheding of Christs blood at the cross, fulfilling the law of a life for a life.(many lives)

    LA
    My theology is that the elect of Israel became the scattered church among the nations, and when filled up with the full number of gentiles who believe to become one with them, then Christ will return and gather them, and God will then pour out His wrath on the unbelievers of both Jew and Gentile.

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    Post Blood Atonement Theory, part 1

    Quote Originally Posted by Lazy afternoon View Post
    Freelight,

    Do you believe the necessity of the blood sacrifice of Christ to save you from your sins and from Gods wrath.


    LA

    Hi LA,

    One of my hallmark thread here, which is no long extant (an older thread that was purged during the last system upgrade, as they were deleting major volumes of oldest material) was 'Atonement without blood' - for those who were not around years back to read any of its content,...lots of evidence was expounded upon showing there is atonement without the necessity for the shedding of blood in the OT. Some questions - Would a loving God demand a 'blood sacrifice' of an innocent man to save anyone, that this gesture would somehow move him to direct his love and mercy upon him to forgive him? God couldn't save or forgive you just by you coming to him in prayer, repenting of your sins, and committing you life to do his will??? He needs BLOOD? He needs another to suffer death? KILLING innocent animals and shedding their blood is cruel enough, but then assuming the blood of another human being has special healing powers to atone for your sins, that is even more astounding, especially when this violates the universal law of self-responsibility, where each soul suffers and dies for its own sins, and that no other person can atone for another sins. See Ezekiel 18 for starters, then consult your own conscience on this,...and review basic spiritual laws. - I understand the 'concept' but question its efficacy.

    I did write an original response to your inquiry, in draft-mode, and will send if you want to discuss it more, or at least to really research and question if a 'blood-sacrfice' is valid, logical, rational, let alone efficacious. This will challenge religious beliefs here to their core, and only the truly courageous person will bravely take this subject on, and seek out the actual truth. The subject has many aspects and dimensions to it, so it would merit its very own thread again. I could create a new thread with my same old original title, but we'll see, I've got alot on my plate. With this said, a few pointers to consider before I close here, since your question could be just an honest curious inquiry, but not sure the motive behind it, and what assumptions or conclusions would be expected in your 'reaction', critical and judgmental of my answer

    So to sum up a few notations now -

    1) I dot NOT believe that blood-shed, or the killing of any animal/person is absolutely necessary in order that one's sins be atoned for. The blood-atonement concept can even be refuted and challenged in the OT itself, even though a sacrificial system was set up, and even though the concept-belief by analogy is carried over into the NT. - I dont worship a carnal or blood-thirsty 'god', no sorry. - not that I have anything against pagans, heck, some aspects of my theology are neo-pagan,...but blood sacrifice concepts are old pagan belief carry-overs, AND EVEN STILL....the outward sacrifice is SYMBOLIC of the soul itself surrendering to God, the blood being symbolic of the life-force(soul) in its yielding all to the Great Spirit. All these outward gestures and rituals are dramas depicting the inward movement of the soul Godward. That is all.

    2) Blood does not save me from God's wrath, my own repentance and sincere re-turning to God, invites his natural embrace of me in the arms of LOVE. Does love need to slay animals or slaughter a human being to encourage itself to redeem and restore me? - again, all outward physical sacrificical acts are symbolic of the inward gesture of the soul in its repentance towards 'God',....sadly at the expense of animals in some belief-systems, and even more grave and barbaric....in human sacrifice which is AGAINST OT teaching and principle! "Thou shalt not murder". - even the age-old universal doctors oath holds! - "do no harm".

    * Now to any who will rise up in passionate rebuttal and alarm at the thoughts shared above and JUDGE my eternal salvation, condemning me to hell, you will have to bear that before the presence of God in the light of his truth on this and all religious matters, since I have no fear in presenting the values and ideals of truth, love, beauty, goodness and real justice....themes and ideals at the foremost before any lover and seeker of truth. If one choose chooses to believe in the efficacy of blood-atonement, that is their perogative, but it is still just a 'belief' with varying degrees of effect, determined by one's own 'faith'. - it is wholly subjective.

    I will sit on my original response and determine when I will share it next or start a new thread on 'Atonement without blood'. Another spin on the word 'atonement' is 'at-one-ment'.....being 'at-one' with God - a simply sincere repentance, a re-turning of heart, mind and soul to 'God' is all that is essential, which includes a return to RIGHT DOING. - this is the only true atonement, the return to righteousness (right-doing, doing God's will, loyalty to truth, obedience to love). - love is the fulfilling of the law.

    * With all that said, there is a symbolic meaning of 'blood' and its relation to the soul (the life of the flesh is in the blood), and the soul's relationship to God, wherein the 'blood of Jesus' has potential and transforming power, - I do not deny or reject the power of Jesus BLOOD. I do however on certain moral and philosophical grounds, some points already mentioned above, question certain beliefs about 'blood-atonement' and its applications. Do note. What avails is the giving of one's soul, in surrender to God, surrending the soul-body to the Spirit, which is a kind of 'sacrifice' of 'self' to the Greater Self of God in service to LIFE. - we can explore the dynamics of 'sacrifice' and symbolism of 'blood'. More to come. - a final thought from Isaiah below -

    God Has Had Enough

    10 Hear the word of the Lord,
    You rulers of Sodom;
    Give ear to the instruction of our God,
    You people of Gomorrah.

    11 “What are your multiplied sacrifices to Me?”
    Says the Lord.
    “I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams
    And the fat of fed cattle;
    And I take no pleasure in the blood of bulls, lambs or goats.


    12 “When you come to appear before Me,
    Who requires [e]of you this trampling of My courts?

    13 “Bring your worthless offerings no longer,
    Incense is an abomination to Me.
    New moon and sabbath, the calling of assemblies—
    I cannot endure iniquity and the solemn assembly.


    14 “I hate your new moon festivals and your appointed feasts,
    They have become a burden to Me;
    I am weary of bearing them.

    15 “So when you spread out your hands in prayer,
    I will hide My eyes from you;
    Yes, even though you multiply prayers,
    I will not listen.
    Your hands are covered with blood.

    16 “Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean;
    Remove the evil of your deeds from My sight.
    Cease to do evil,

    17 Learn to do good;
    Seek justice,
    Reprove the ruthless,
    Defend the orphan,
    Plead for the widow.


    Again,...you can shed all the blood you want (choose your perfered religious custom or traditional means...many religions have animal sacrifice), have faith even in the blood of a god-man, demi-god or avatar (wonderful, lots of interesting correlaries there)....but only your real repentance before God is what AVAILS. 'God' is consistent,....he said DO good, DO what is right,...there are no substitutes!

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    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by freelight View Post
    Again,...you can shed all the blood you want (choose your perfered religious custom or traditional means...many religions have animal sacrifice), have faith even in the blood of a god-man, demi-god or avatar (wonderful, lots of interesting correlaries there)....but only your real repentance before God is what AVAILS. 'God' is consistent,....he said DO good, DO what is right,...there are no substitutes!
    You know NOTHING about blood atonement. The sentence upon sin is death: "For the wages of sin is death" (Ro. 6: 23). When a man sins he becomes spiritually dead. "Death" does not mean ceasing to exist, but instead means a "separation". Physical death is the separation of a man's soul from his physical body. Spiritual death is the separation of spirit of God from a man's soul. On the very day that Adam sinned by eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil he died spiritually:

    "...for in the day that thou eastest therefore thou shall surely die"
    (Gen. 2: 17).

    Adam did not die "physically" on the day that he ate from the forbidden tree but instead he died "spiritually."

    Therefore, when a man sins the sentence upon him is death. No amount of good deeds can bring him righteousness after he sins. If he is ever to be justified in the sight of God it must be by the penalty being paid. He must be justified by death, "justified by blood" (Ro.5:9).

    Once a sinner believes the gospel, then, at that time, he is identified with the death of the Lord Jesus. And at the same time when the Holy Spirit baptizes him "into Jesus Christ" (the Body of Christ; 1 Cor. 12: 13, 27) he is also baptized into the death of the Lord Jesus:

    "Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death"
    (Ro.6:3-4).

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    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    RBBI,

    Earlier I said:

    The disciples were looking for the glorious appearing of the Lord Jesus Christ:

    "But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body" (Phil.3:20-21).

    To this you say:

    Quote Originally Posted by RBBI View Post
    Uh NO. You have no idea what the appearing we are waiting for is, because you have no idea who the Son is, and HE has BEEN APPEARING for the last 2 days/2000 years in His many membered body, WHICH IS SPIRIT.
    If we are to believe you then we must stand reason on its head and imagine that for the last two thousand years believers have been putting on a spiritual body like the Lord Jesus' spiritual body, a body which is described this way:

    "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality" (1 Cor.15:52-53).

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    Eclectic Theosophist freelight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    You know NOTHING about blood atonement.
    My first part on 'Blood Atonement' stands. I know whereof I speak, having done much research on the subject and as a student of religion am continuing to learn. Part 2 which is my original response to LA, shall soon be dispatched

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    Arrow Blood Atonement Theory, part 2

    ~*~*~

    Continuing to release Part 2 here, which is mostly (with additional editing) my first response to LA's original question - we continue -


    LA,

    You may have recalled one of my charter threads 'Atonement without blood' (no longer extant) - where I explore and expound upon the FACT that atonement was attained by ways other than a 'blood sacrifice' in the OT (and it was also only effacious for unintentional sins!), and even today among Jews all that is essential for atonement is 'repentance' via prayer, good works, return to right-doing. The fact is that 'repentance' and 're-turning' to God in this manner is all that is essential. - see what Jesus and his original apostles taught - "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand".

    Could Jesus Death atone for anyone sins? (Rabbi Singer)

    The slaughtering of innocent animals, much less an innocent or pure human being is not 'necessary' or 'required' (even cruel and immoral) for salvation from sin or to save one from the fictitious wrath of God. I've shared and questioned this 'belief' in my former thread of old, and in other places, but not as prominently as of recent, since the subject has not come within the scope of any recent discussions. This should be of no surprise for those familiar with my past writings,..but SADLY here, many judge me from just a few commentaries they read from a few select threads, without even knowning the great breadth, depth and scope of my 'theology' and research amassed thus far. Many are fairly clueless and their posts show it. And even so in any pursual of truth,...viewpoints are subject to change.

    This does not affect the value or import of what I share concerning the subjects being treated here, since they are evaluated and engaged in the exchange of discussion, weighed upon their own merits or demerits. Ideas, principles, values, meanings, concepts, beliefs are to be considered philosophically, and on another level for their practicality. You might discover that alot of theology, especially of a mere 'doctrinal' nature, doesnt even touch the latter level of practicality, beyond various dogmatic assumptions and 'posturing' (folks getting stuck in various positionalities instead of being free in spirit). - and still all doctrines must be considered for their ethical or moral value/consistency, among other qualifiers.

    I could say more, for there is much more to say. Truth has no apologies, since 'blood' in and of itself cannot save, much less cleanse anyone from 'sin',...the only efficacy of it is what is accepted or imagined in one's own imagination by 'faith', and what the 'blood' means or symbolizes. - its all subjective. Blood does not have any magical sin-cleaning power to it, beyond what one invests in it. Granted, the blood of Jesus has alot of symbolic power, and I respect it. I value all the hidden meaning behind religious symbols and emblems, even taking their substance on inner spiritual levels, so do know their potential powers. Most of us mystics do. However the critical questioning of the concept or belief behind 'blood atonement' remains, since God was at one time disgusted of such, it became a stench in his nostrils! - all the temple sacrifices offered for a million years cannot help you, unless/until you REPENT and live a life of purity, and commit to DO God's will. - you are responsible for your own 'sins' and for your own 'atonement'. - God provides the grace and means of course for your salvation, and the key is activated via 'repentance', - all else are but helps towards the essential changing of the inward disposition of the mind, the rebirth of the spirit within, the inner transformation and direction of will.

    FURTHERMORE...sacrifice itself, blood-letting or otherwise (pick your method or means), is symbolic of the soul surrendering, yielding all to 'God'. Your true sacrifice is the putting your own flesh, your own ego, self desires on the cross, crucifying it, for the dominance and rising(life) of your 'spirit' to ascend to its place in ruling the soul-body, so you are LED by the spirit, walking in the victory of God-consciousness. All these religious rituals and gestures are 'figurative'(symbolic) so that one can offer the kinds of sacrifices that 'God' really accepts at an inward level, actions of the soul and spirit engaging in true spiritual service.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    RBBI,

    Earlier I said:

    The disciples were looking for the glorious appearing of the Lord Jesus Christ:

    "But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body" (Phil.3:20-21).

    To this you say:



    If we are to believe you then we must stand reason on its head and imagine that for the last two thousand years believers have been putting on a spiritual body like the Lord Jesus' spiritual body, a body which is described this way:

    "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality" (1 Cor.15:52-53).
    Did you forget the part (Gal. 3:27) about, "as many of you as have been baptized into Christ (the Seed which is SPIRIT) have put on Christ"? Acts 3 and forward is what happens after you put on Christ. Problem is, many never put Him on in the first place.

    Don't confuse this with the resurrection comment, as you did above.

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    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RBBI View Post
    Did you forget the part (Gal. 3:27) about, "as many of you as have been baptized into Christ (the Seed which is SPIRIT) have put on Christ"? Acts 3 and forward is what happens after you put on Christ. Problem is, many never put Him on in the first place.

    Don't confuse this with the resurrection comment, as you did above.
    It is you who are confused. Let us look at this verse again:

    "But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body" (Phil.3:20-21).

    The Greek word "transform" means "to change the figure of" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

    So Paul is saying that the Lord Jesus will "change the figure of" our lowly body so that it will be like His glorious body.

    We see the same truth here:

    "Beloved, now are we the children of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is" (1 Jn.3:2).

    And here:

    "When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory" (Col.3:4).

    So Philippians 3:20-21 is not speaking of what will happens at 1 Corinthians 12:13, when by one Spirit believers are baptized into the Body of Christ.

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    Quote Originally Posted by freelight View Post
    You may have recalled one of my charter threads 'Atonement without blood' (no longer extant) - where I explore and expound upon the FACT that atonement was attained by ways other than a 'blood sacrifice' in the OT
    What about what is said here?:

    "And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission"
    (Heb.9:22).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    It is you who are confused. Let us look at this verse again:

    "But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body" (Phil.3:20-21).

    The Greek word "transform" means "to change the figure of" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

    So Paul is saying that the Lord Jesus will "change the figure of" our lowly body so that it will be like His glorious body.

    We see the same truth here:

    "Beloved, now are we the children of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is" (1 Jn.3:2).

    And here:

    "When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory" (Col.3:4).

    So Philippians 3:20-21 is not speaking of what will happens at 1 Corinthians 12:13, when by one Spirit believers are baptized into the Body of Christ.
    It, like our salvation, is a PROCESS, that begins with one thing, and ultimately, ends with the latter fulfillment. For what IS salvation but being raised from the dead?

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    Over 2500 post club Zeke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    You know NOTHING about blood atonement. The sentence upon sin is death: "For the wages of sin is death" (Ro. 6: 23). When a man sins he becomes spiritually dead. "Death" does not mean ceasing to exist, but instead means a "separation". Physical death is the separation of a man's soul from his physical body. Spiritual death is the separation of spirit of God from a man's soul. On the very day that Adam sinned by eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil he died spiritually:

    "...for in the day that thou eastest therefore thou shall surely die"
    (Gen. 2: 17).

    Adam did not die "physically" on the day that he ate from the forbidden tree but instead he died "spiritually."

    Therefore, when a man sins the sentence upon him is death. No amount of good deeds can bring him righteousness after he sins. If he is ever to be justified in the sight of God it must be by the penalty being paid. He must be justified by death, "justified by blood" (Ro.5:9).

    Once a sinner believes the gospel, then, at that time, he is identified with the death of the Lord Jesus. And at the same time when the Holy Spirit baptizes him "into Jesus Christ" (the Body of Christ; 1 Cor. 12: 13, 27) he is also baptized into the death of the Lord Jesus:

    "Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death"
    (Ro.6:3-4).
    And you know little about symbols,types.shadows,figurative,allegorical,simil itude,and the timeless verses time 2Cor 3:6, you are historically indoctrinated by the Roman myth of a literal sacrifice of flesh and blood which has no inheritance in the Kingdom (Matt 11:11) Divine prefers mercy over sacrifice, and the only Lord we must know isn't coming in the clouds in this kingdom because the kingdom of God is within Luke 17:20-21.
    Trying to awaken the divine principle in the belly of the fish.

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  20. #102
    Over 5000 post club 1Mind1Spirit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    What about what is said here?:

    "And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission"
    (Heb.9:22).
    He neither can nor will answer.

    He should have said he doesn't know, yet he would rather boast in his studying prowess about the journey.


    Originally Posted by freelight
    My first part on 'Blood Atonement' stands. I know whereof I speak, having done much research on the subject and as a student of religion am continuing to learn. Part 2 which is my original response to LA, shall soon be dispatched
    Last edited by 1Mind1Spirit; February 19th, 2017 at 09:07 PM.

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    Over 5000 post club 1Mind1Spirit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeke View Post
    And you know little about symbols,types.shadows,figurative,allegorical,simil itude,and the timeless verses time 2Cor 3:6, you are historically indoctrinated by the Roman myth of a literal sacrifice of flesh and blood which has no inheritance in the Kingdom (Matt 11:11) Divine prefers mercy over sacrifice, and the only Lord we must know isn't coming in the clouds in this kingdom because the kingdom of God is within Luke 17:20-21.
    Pervert.

    His soul was very much attached to that flesh and blood of his.

    He did what Adam could not do.

    He sacrificed his will, body and soul to obey his Father.

    Isaiah 53

    10Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

    11He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

    Luke 22:42
    "Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done.
    Last edited by 1Mind1Spirit; February 19th, 2017 at 09:24 PM.

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