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Thread: The Sleep of Death in Sheol, the Two Resurrections, and the Lake of Fire Judgment

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tambora View Post
    ...TOL is a bit more tolerant of these wolves than most Christian sites.
    Wanna know why?

    Because TOL knows it has knowledgeable folks of scripture here to defend the truth from these pit diggers.
    .
    That's true. I've been on other sites and they don't give you the free rein that TOL gives. They don't want an echo chamber here. It all comes out in the wash.


    What's new?
    PlastikBuddah [aka Gamera] make-believer. Kmoney [aka Count Iblis] make-believer. Alate_One deceives students in the classroom. Arthur Brain wants answers. Eph 5:11

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    Quote Originally Posted by cgaviria View Post
    To be dead is like to be asleep, hence why the dead are said to be sleeping,

    And just as the passing of time is quick from the moment of sleep to the moment of waking up, so in likewise manner it is from the moment of death to the moment of resurrection. This is why Sheol is said to be a place of no thought, no knowledge, no work,

    Because the dead do not have thoughts, since the dead are not conscious. And as such, it is the soul of a man that goes to Sheol at death,

    Whereas the spirit of man returns to God who gave it,

    As the spirit belongs to God who gave it,
    I was following you all the way up until you came to the point you were making below...

    Quote Originally Posted by cgaviria View Post
    And this spirit of man is the breath of man, which is why the Greek and Hebrew word for spirit is the same word for breath or wind, in which case, even animals, have this same spirit that man has,
    The spirit of man which man has is not the same as that of the animals. In Genesis 2:7 the Hebrew word translated as "breath" or "spirit" of life is "nesh-a-maw'" where as in Genesis 7:15 it is "roo'-akh." Notice also that God breathed into man the "nesh-a-maw'" of life, which is something that was not done in the creation of any other living creature.

    Quote Originally Posted by cgaviria View Post
    And just as the soul becomes living when the breath of life is given, so does the soul become dead when the breath of life goes back to God who gave it. And although the body decays and returns to the dust when the breath of life is taken away, the soul sleeps and is kept hidden in Sheol, so that it may one day awaken to be judged at the resurrection of all the dead, hence why the dead are prophesied to come out of Sheol, which is where the souls of the dead are, at the final great white throne judgment, which is mentioned in this prophecy concerning the dead coming out of Hades, which is the Greek word for Sheol,
    Here you are pretty spot on, except I do not find anywhere that would be evidence for the soul being hidden in sheol.

    Quote Originally Posted by cgaviria View Post
    And as such, whoever is not found written in the book of life, will be cast into the lake of fire,

    And this fire not only destroys the body, but also the soul,

    And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell. (Matthew 10:28 [ESV])
    This is where you take a major wrong turn in your doctrine. the verse you quote is translated with an agenda. The Greek word translated as "destroy" in Matthew 10:28 should never have been translated as such. The context of the rest of Matthew 10 dictates that it should be translated as "to be lost." If "destroy" is supposed to be used here, then every other instance within the same conversation (chapter 10) would also need to be translated as destroy. Therefore, Matthew 10:6 should be, "But rather go to the destroyed sheep of the house of Israel." And, further on in Matthew 10:39, it should be, "He that finds his soul will destroy it: and he that destroys his soul for my sake will find it." Moreover, this same word is also translated as "perish" elsewhere; however, even in these cases "lost" makes the most sense.

    Matthew 10:28, when translated honestly within the given context, should read, "And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot cause the soul to be killed: rather, fear the One who can cause both soul and body to be lost in Geenna."

    Quote Originally Posted by cgaviria View Post
    Which is why this judgment of fire is also called the second death,

    Because it will be a second death to those who died before, and then die again when thrown into the lake of fire. This is why there will be dead bodies in the lake of fire,

    "And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind." (Isaiah 66:24 [NIV])
    Here you have taken Isaiah 66:24 completely out of context. It is a prophecy, yes; but it is not about the lake of fire. It is about a time still on this earth. Notice how the new heaven and new earth have yet to be made just a little further up in this chapter (Isaiah 66:22). Moreover, this judgment occurs at a time when "all flesh" will come and worship before the Eternal One, and we know that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God (1 Corinthians 15:50). Notice also that all flesh will be worshiping the Eternal one from "one new moon to another, and from one Sabbath to another." (Isaiah 66:23)

    Quote Originally Posted by cgaviria View Post
    Because whoever is thrown into the lake of fire dies, and this same place described in this prophecy in Isaiah where the worm does not die nor the fire is quenched is the same place described by Jesus as the place where the worm does not die nor is the fire quenched,
    First, Those who are thrown into the lake of fire do not die (1 Corinthians 3:12-15). Second, Jesus was not talking about a literal place. He taught in parables. As much as I hear Christians claim that Jesus is talking about a literal place here in Mark 9:47-48, I know that they do not take this scripture literally; because, if they did, there would be a ton of one-eyed Christians walking about the earth. It is logically inconsistent and intellectually dishonest if you choose one part of the parable to be figurative and the other to be literal.

    Quote Originally Posted by cgaviria View Post
    And as such, not only will body and soul be destroyed, but whoever is thrown into the lake of fire will cease to exist,

    You defiled your sanctuaries with your many sins and your dishonest trade. So I brought fire out from within you, and it consumed you. I reduced you to ashes on the ground in the sight of all who were watching. All who knew you are appalled at your fate. You have come to a terrible end, and you will exist no more.(Ezekiel 28:18-19 [NLT])
    Out of context yet again, and I love how you do not stick to one translation and choose the ones that say exactly what you want them to say. Try doing some real etymology when you choose verses to use as evidence.

    First, This is talking about Lucifer, or the King of Tyrus, and it is not talking about the lake of fire at all. Notice how he wasn't thrown into any fire here? The fire was brought up from within him. Much different than what is happening in Revelation... Besides that, if you follow the line of thought in context with a little etymology, you would find that an accurate translation would be, "You are a terror, you are nothing anymore."

    Quote Originally Posted by cgaviria View Post
    And all the wicked will be reduced to mere ashes,

    Then you will trample on the wicked; they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day when I act," says the LORD Almighty. (Malachi 4:3 [NIV])
    Try to actually read the context of the passage you are quoting. I can make scripture say anything I want If I picked out verses that I want to represent my own humanistic doctrines.

    Like this: After betraying Jesus, Judas went and hanged himself.

    (Matthew 27:5) And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.


    Therefore, Jesus tells you to go and do the same.

    (Luke 10:37b) Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.



    The context of Malachi 4:3 tells us that what is going on is happening on the earth during the tribulation, not after in the lake of fire...

    Quote Originally Posted by cgaviria View Post
    This is why it is said that the anger of God, although severe, is but for a moment,
    Psalm 30:5 is a wonderful verse, but the lake of fire destroying the souls of the wicked is not at all being implied as the reason for God's anger being just for a moment. Look at the context!

    Quote Originally Posted by cgaviria View Post
    Whereas those who have died and belong to Jesus Christ will be resurrected at his second coming,
    Not all that are dead in Christ will be resurrected at his second coming. It is actually a very specific group of those who are dead in Christ. This is perhaps one of the biggest false perspectives that people have about the second coming of Jesus the Messiah. If we look in the book of Revelation, we find a specific group of believers that will have their part in the first resurrection.

    (Revelation 20:4)* Then I saw thrones, and those who sat on them were given authority to judge. I also saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. They came back to life and ruled with the Messiah for a thousand years.

    Do you see who it is that comes back to life to rule with Jesus the Messiah for a thousand years? It is not any of us in this age, unless the tribulation happens within our lifetime. It will be those who will be beheaded because of their testimony because they will not worship the beast or its image, and will not receive its mark in their foreheads or hands. Many bubbles would be burst if pre-tribulation and mid-tribulation believers would actually read carefully who actually has a part in the first resurrection...
    Notice also that the rest of the dead do not live again until after the millennial reign of Jesus the Messiah. *Furthermore, if we take a look carefully at the great white throne judgment we will see that death and hades (hell in most translations)give up the dead that are in them. At this point, they (the dead) are then judged according to their deeds. Now watch carefully because it then says that any who were not found in the scroll of life would be cast into the lake of fire. Do you see it? If everyone who was ever in Jesus the Messiah is already resurrected before the millennial reign of Jesus, there would be no need to see if any of the dead were written in the scroll of life. This proves without a doubt that all that are dead (lost or believers) before the millennial reign are not conscious or alive before the great whit throne judgment, except those specified to reign with the Messiah during the millennial reign.

    Quote Originally Posted by cgaviria View Post
    And will be gathered together by angels to be taken to meet the Lord in the air, along with those who were already alive and also belong to Jesus Christ,
    This is the first resurrection spoken of in this prophecy,
    In which case, whoever partakes in the first resurrection, will not only rule with Jesus Christ for a thousand years on this earth, but will also live onwards into the eons of the eons beginning in a new heaven and new earth, since those who are resurrected in this first resurrection will never die again, which is why it is said that the "second death has no power over them",
    There is no fault in this as it pertains to the millennial reign of the Messiah.


    Quote Originally Posted by cgaviria View Post
    And whoever lives into the new heaven and new earth will also never die, since death itself will be also be no more,
    Amen.

    Now, a little more about your false perspective of those in the lake of fire being destroyed. I say false because in Revelation we are told that those who are not believers are still alive, but will not have access to New Jerusalem. Lets take a look at Revelation 21:27.

    (Revelation 21:27) And in no way will anything that defiles, or observes idolatry or falsehood enter into it: but they who are written in the Lamb's scroll of life.


    I find it interesting that there is a need to say that nothing that defiles, or observes idolatry or falsehood will enter into New Jerusalem if everyone who practiced such things were destroyed in the lake of fire. Furthermore, if we look closely at chapter 22 we will find that they were not destroyed (or burn in the lake of fire for eternity) because they are living outside of New Jerusalem.

    (Revelation 22:15) For outside are dogs, sorcerers, whoremongers, murderers, idolaters, and all who loved and practiced falsehood.



    Now I realize that this will raise the question: if they are outside of New Jerusalem, what happened to them in the lake of fire?

    I have been said to believe in universal salvation, but that is not what I believe at all. I believe that everyone will be completely reconciled with God, but reconciled does not mean saved. Because of the length of this post already, I will explain what I believe briefly and will elaborate with scripture in a separate post if asked.

    I believe that when Jesus the Messiah died on the cross, He became the savior of all men. Those who acknowledge Jesus as the Savior are saved, have their sins forgiven, and are adopted into the family of God. Those who do not acknowledge Jesus as the Savior remain lost, are not forgiven, and have no inheritance in Jesus the Messiah. Just because the lost do not acknowledge Jesus as Savior does not make Jesus any less their Savior. Just like those who do not acknowledge Trump as president in no way makes him any less their president. Furthermore, the work that Jesus did on the cross caused everyone that ever lived or will live to be justified to life. This means that, no matter whether or not you believe in Jesus the Messiah, death is not final. I also believe that all who die are dead until such time that they are called forth from the dead and hades (hell) for the Great White Throne Judgement (except those who will have their part in the first resurrection. see above). During that judgment, all will be purified and have their works tested by the Glory of God (lake of fire and sulfur; known in Greek culture as a lake of divine purification). All those who are written in the scroll of life will already have the life (Spirit) of Christ and will not be hurt by the Glory of God (lake of fire). Those who are not written are cast into the Gory of God (lake of fire) and lose their own lives and are purified by having it replaced with the life (Spirit) of Christ because all are justified to life. This process will be painful because the lake of fire (Glory of God) still has power over them. Those who were written in the Lamb's scroll of life are then free to live within and go in and out of New Jerusalem because their sins were forgiven and they possess the perfection of Jesus the Messiah. Those over whom the lake of fire had power, though they are justified to life, are still considered dogs, whoremongers, idolaters, etc. Because their sins were never forgiven and do not possess the perfection of Jesus the Messiah, they must always remain outside of New Jerusalem, forever separated from the direct presence of God who dwells within...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Veritas veritate View Post
    I was following you all the way up until you came to the point you were making below...


    The spirit of man which man has is not the same as that of the animals. In Genesis 2:7 the Hebrew word translated as "breath" or "spirit" of life is "nesh-a-maw'" where as in Genesis 7:15 it is "roo'-akh." Notice also that God breathed into man the "nesh-a-maw'" of life, which is something that was not done in the creation of any other living creature.



    Here you are pretty spot on, except I do not find anywhere that would be evidence for the soul being hidden in sheol.



    This is where you take a major wrong turn in your doctrine. the verse you quote is translated with an agenda. The Greek word translated as "destroy" in Matthew 10:28 should never have been translated as such. The context of the rest of Matthew 10 dictates that it should be translated as "to be lost." If "destroy" is supposed to be used here, then every other instance within the same conversation (chapter 10) would also need to be translated as destroy. Therefore, Matthew 10:6 should be, "But rather go to the destroyed sheep of the house of Israel." And, further on in Matthew 10:39, it should be, "He that finds his soul will destroy it: and he that destroys his soul for my sake will find it." Moreover, this same word is also translated as "perish" elsewhere; however, even in these cases "lost" makes the most sense.

    Matthew 10:28, when translated honestly within the given context, should read, "And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot cause the soul to be killed: rather, fear the One who can cause both soul and body to be lost in Geenna."



    Here you have taken Isaiah 66:24 completely out of context. It is a prophecy, yes; but it is not about the lake of fire. It is about a time still on this earth. Notice how the new heaven and new earth have yet to be made just a little further up in this chapter (Isaiah 66:22). Moreover, this judgment occurs at a time when "all flesh" will come and worship before the Eternal One, and we know that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God (1 Corinthians 15:50). Notice also that all flesh will be worshiping the Eternal one from "one new moon to another, and from one Sabbath to another." (Isaiah 66:23)



    First, Those who are thrown into the lake of fire do not die (1 Corinthians 3:12-15). Second, Jesus was not talking about a literal place. He taught in parables. As much as I hear Christians claim that Jesus is talking about a literal place here in Mark 9:47-48, I know that they do not take this scripture literally; because, if they did, there would be a ton of one-eyed Christians walking about the earth. It is logically inconsistent and intellectually dishonest if you choose one part of the parable to be figurative and the other to be literal.



    Out of context yet again, and I love how you do not stick to one translation and choose the ones that say exactly what you want them to say. Try doing some real etymology when you choose verses to use as evidence.

    First, This is talking about Lucifer, or the King of Tyrus, and it is not talking about the lake of fire at all. Notice how he wasn't thrown into any fire here? The fire was brought up from within him. Much different than what is happening in Revelation... Besides that, if you follow the line of thought in context with a little etymology, you would find that an accurate translation would be, "You are a terror, you are nothing anymore."



    Try to actually read the context of the passage you are quoting. I can make scripture say anything I want If I picked out verses that I want to represent my own humanistic doctrines.

    Like this: After betraying Jesus, Judas went and hanged himself.

    (Matthew 27:5) And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.


    Therefore, Jesus tells you to go and do the same.

    (Luke 10:37b) Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.



    The context of Malachi 4:3 tells us that what is going on is happening on the earth during the tribulation, not after in the lake of fire...



    Psalm 30:5 is a wonderful verse, but the lake of fire destroying the souls of the wicked is not at all being implied as the reason for God's anger being just for a moment. Look at the context!



    Not all that are dead in Christ will be resurrected at his second coming. It is actually a very specific group of those who are dead in Christ. This is perhaps one of the biggest false perspectives that people have about the second coming of Jesus the Messiah. If we look in the book of Revelation, we find a specific group of believers that will have their part in the first resurrection.

    (Revelation 20:4)* Then I saw thrones, and those who sat on them were given authority to judge. I also saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. They came back to life and ruled with the Messiah for a thousand years.

    Do you see who it is that comes back to life to rule with Jesus the Messiah for a thousand years? It is not any of us in this age, unless the tribulation happens within our lifetime. It will be those who will be beheaded because of their testimony because they will not worship the beast or its image, and will not receive its mark in their foreheads or hands. Many bubbles would be burst if pre-tribulation and mid-tribulation believers would actually read carefully who actually has a part in the first resurrection...
    Notice also that the rest of the dead do not live again until after the millennial reign of Jesus the Messiah. *Furthermore, if we take a look carefully at the great white throne judgment we will see that death and hades (hell in most translations)give up the dead that are in them. At this point, they (the dead) are then judged according to their deeds. Now watch carefully because it then says that any who were not found in the scroll of life would be cast into the lake of fire. Do you see it? If everyone who was ever in Jesus the Messiah is already resurrected before the millennial reign of Jesus, there would be no need to see if any of the dead were written in the scroll of life. This proves without a doubt that all that are dead (lost or believers) before the millennial reign are not conscious or alive before the great whit throne judgment, except those specified to reign with the Messiah during the millennial reign.


    There is no fault in this as it pertains to the millennial reign of the Messiah.



    Amen.

    Now, a little more about your false perspective of those in the lake of fire being destroyed. I say false because in Revelation we are told that those who are not believers are still alive, but will not have access to New Jerusalem. Lets take a look at Revelation 21:27.

    (Revelation 21:27) And in no way will anything that defiles, or observes idolatry or falsehood enter into it: but they who are written in the Lamb's scroll of life.


    I find it interesting that there is a need to say that nothing that defiles, or observes idolatry or falsehood will enter into New Jerusalem if everyone who practiced such things were destroyed in the lake of fire. Furthermore, if we look closely at chapter 22 we will find that they were not destroyed (or burn in the lake of fire for eternity) because they are living outside of New Jerusalem.

    (Revelation 22:15) For outside are dogs, sorcerers, whoremongers, murderers, idolaters, and all who loved and practiced falsehood.



    Now I realize that this will raise the question: if they are outside of New Jerusalem, what happened to them in the lake of fire?

    I have been said to believe in universal salvation, but that is not what I believe at all. I believe that everyone will be completely reconciled with God, but reconciled does not mean saved. Because of the length of this post already, I will explain what I believe briefly and will elaborate with scripture in a separate post if asked.

    I believe that when Jesus the Messiah died on the cross, He became the savior of all men. Those who acknowledge Jesus as the Savior are saved, have their sins forgiven, and are adopted into the family of God. Those who do not acknowledge Jesus as the Savior remain lost, are not forgiven, and have no inheritance in Jesus the Messiah. Just because the lost do not acknowledge Jesus as Savior does not make Jesus any less their Savior. Just like those who do not acknowledge Trump as president in no way makes him any less their president. Furthermore, the work that Jesus did on the cross caused everyone that ever lived or will live to be justified to life. This means that, no matter whether or not you believe in Jesus the Messiah, death is not final. I also believe that all who die are dead until such time that they are called forth from the dead and hades (hell) for the Great White Throne Judgement (except those who will have their part in the first resurrection. see above). During that judgment, all will be purified and have their works tested by the Glory of God (lake of fire and sulfur; known in Greek culture as a lake of divine purification). All those who are written in the scroll of life will already have the life (Spirit) of Christ and will not be hurt by the Glory of God (lake of fire). Those who are not written are cast into the Gory of God (lake of fire) and lose their own lives and are purified by having it replaced with the life (Spirit) of Christ because all are justified to life. This process will be painful because the lake of fire (Glory of God) still has power over them. Those who were written in the Lamb's scroll of life are then free to live within and go in and out of New Jerusalem because their sins were forgiven and they possess the perfection of Jesus the Messiah. Those over whom the lake of fire had power, though they are justified to life, are still considered dogs, whoremongers, idolaters, etc. Because their sins were never forgiven and do not possess the perfection of Jesus the Messiah, they must always remain outside of New Jerusalem, forever separated from the direct presence of God who dwells within...
    This is a horrible teaching. If everyone were eventually saved, I pity all the prophets, and the apostles, and even Jesus Christ, who suffered and died such painful deaths, who will achieve life just as anyone else, even the worst of men that have existed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cgaviria View Post
    This is a horrible teaching. If everyone were eventually saved, I pity all the prophets, and the apostles, and even Jesus Christ, who suffered and died such painful deaths, who will achieve life just as anyone else, even the worst of men that have existed.
    You didn't read anything that I wrote did you? I do not believe that every one will be saved. If they were then there wouldn't be anyone outside of New Jerusalem that could not enter into the city. Everyone is justified to life because of what Jesus accomplished, but it is only those who acknowledge Jesus the Messiah as the Savior through faith that have their sins forgiven and can enter into New Jerusalem where the direct Glory of God and the Lamb resides.

    I have provided you with ample proof why your perspective incorrect using scripture in context just as you have asked anyone who opposes your false doctrine to do, and in response, all you can say is that it is a horrible teaching with no evidence... There seems to be a double standard.

    Even if everyone were eventually saved, why would you pity the prophets? Jesus, whom the prophets for told, is the only way and reason everyone would be saved. No, the real reason you don't want everyone to be saved is because in the end, it would make you no more special than the guy who died without acknowledging Jesus as Savior. It's like saying, "God loves everyone? That's not fair!"

    Again, scripture does not say that everyone will be saved, but neither does it say that the lost, whom Jesus came to seek and to save, will be destroyed or consciously tormented for eternity in the lake of fire. It does say that there is Love and Grace for all, and forgiveness to those whose faith rests within Jesus the Messiah, and the Savior of all men.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Veritas veritate View Post
    You didn't read anything that I wrote did you? I do not believe that every one will be saved. If they were then there wouldn't be anyone outside of New Jerusalem that could not enter into the city. Everyone is justified to life because of what Jesus accomplished, but it is only those who acknowledge Jesus the Messiah as the Savior through faith that have their sins forgiven and can enter into New Jerusalem where the direct Glory of God and the Lamb resides.

    I have provided you with ample proof why your perspective incorrect using scripture in context just as you have asked anyone who opposes your false doctrine to do, and in response, all you can say is that it is a horrible teaching with no evidence... There seems to be a double standard.

    Even if everyone were eventually saved, why would you pity the prophets? Jesus, whom the prophets for told, is the only way and reason everyone would be saved. No, the real reason you don't want everyone to be saved is because in the end, it would make you no more special than the guy who died without acknowledging Jesus as Savior. It's like saying, "God loves everyone? That's not fair!"

    Again, scripture does not say that everyone will be saved, but neither does it say that the lost, whom Jesus came to seek and to save, will be destroyed or consciously tormented for eternity in the lake of fire. It does say that there is Love and Grace for all, and forgiveness to those whose faith rests within Jesus the Messiah, and the Savior of all men.


    Sent from my iPhone using TOL
    I did, hence my response. It is difficult to reason with someone who is drunk in their own false reasonings. Read the studies I wrote up along with scripture references and sober up, simmer on them, and then perhaps we can have an intelligent conversation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cgaviria View Post
    I did, hence my response. It is difficult to reason with someone who is drunk in their own false reasonings. Read the studies I wrote up along with scripture references and sober up, simmer on them, and then perhaps we can have an intelligent conversation.
    Drunk on my false reasoning? If that were the case I would still be telling you that you are condemned to eternal torment in Hell, advocating the pre-tribulation rapture, and on the line between predestination as Calvin saw it and freewill. When the Holy Spirit showed me the truth, I realized that there is no need to base any doctrine on something that must be inferred from what is written in the Bible. What I believe is written as plain as day in the Bible if it is taken correctly in context.

    I have read your Bible studies and have already pulled on the loose threads and it has unraveled. You pick out single verses out of context and in several different translations in order to force the Bible to say what you want to believe.

    The day I stopped reading my beliefs within the Bible and started believing what is written within, is the day that my humanistic, selfish beliefs were shattered. Now, not only does the Bible no longer contradict itself, it no longer contradicts the very character and nature of God. Anything other than the the complete and perfect work of Jesus the Messiah goes against the very being that is the Eternal One.


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    Last edited by Veritas veritate; February 17th, 2017 at 10:36 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Veritas veritate View Post
    Drunk on my false reasoning? If that were the case I would still be telling you that you are condemned to eternal torment in Hell, advocating the pre-tribulation rapture, and on the line between predestination as Calvin saw it and freewill. When the Holy Spirit showed me the truth, I realized that there is no need to base any doctrine on something that must be inferred from what is written in the Bible. What I believe is written as plain as day in the Bible of it is taken correctly in context.

    I have read your Bible studies and have already pulled on the loose threads and it has unraveled. You pick out single verses out of context and in several different translations in order to force the Bible to say what you want to believe.

    The day I stopped reading my beliefs within the Bible and started believing what is written within, is the day that my humanistic, selfish beliefs were shattered. Now, not only does the Bible no longer contradict itself, it no longer contradicts the very character and nature of God. Anything other than the the complete and perfect work of Jesus the Messiah goes against the very being that is the Eternal One.


    Sent from my iPhone using TOL
    Fine, then don't become sober. I am weary trying to reason with some of you.

  8. #23
    This is my story. This is my song. Tambora's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cgaviria View Post
    Fine, then don't become sober. I am weary trying to reason with some of you.
    Having your man-made theories get blasted to bits is quite wearisome for you.

    Praising my Savior all the day long

  9. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Tambora For Your Post:

    Eagles Wings (February 17th, 2017),steko (February 17th, 2017)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tambora View Post
    Having your man-made theories get blasted to bits is quite wearisome for you.
    No, being grieved by your own hardness of heart is wearisome to me. Nothing of what I have said is incorrect in accordance with scripture, so you guys can blast and insult me all day long and I will still continue be right. Yet I will still continue pleading with you guys in hopes that I might make one of you realize the error of your own way, and lead you to the truth of Jesus Christ.

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    LIFETIME MEMBER jamie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tambora View Post
    Soul Sleep is a doctrine only held by a very small number of denominations. Mainly JWs, SDAs, and the sects of CoG (roots from Herbert Armstrongs worldwide Church of God).
    Most denominations recognize the flaws and reject it.
    Good point. We know Paul did not believe those who have eternal life sleep until their resurrection.

    Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep... (1 Corinthians 15:51)

    And Jesus denied soul sleep.

    Then His disciples said, “Lord, if he sleeps he will get well.” However, Jesus spoke of his death, but they thought that He was speaking about taking rest in sleep. (John 11:12-13)

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    Quote Originally Posted by jamie View Post
    Good point. We know Paul did not believe those who have eternal life sleep until their resurrection.

    Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep... (1 Corinthians 15:51)

    And Jesus denied soul sleep.

    Then His disciples said, “Lord, if he sleeps he will get well.” However, Jesus spoke of his death, but they thought that He was speaking about taking rest in sleep. (John 11:12-13)
    What a terrible misinterpretation of these scriptures. Paul said "we shall not all sleep" to mean that we shall not all die, since there will be those who will never taste death since they will be alive at the coming of Jesus Christ, hence this verse that follows shortly thereafter,

    in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. (1 Corinthians 15:52 [NIV])

    In which case, this trumpet that sounds in relation to this entire passage is the same trumpet that is blown at the coming of Jesus Christ,

    "Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. (Matthew 24:30-31 [NIV])

    So Paul is indeed associating sleep with death.

    And next, how could John 11:12-13 deny soul sleep if in fact Jesus was associating what he said as "sleeping" to mean death, hence why the disciples were confused? Hello?

    Please please please THINK, do you not realize your own error?

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    LIFETIME MEMBER jamie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cgaviria View Post
    What a terrible misinterpretation of these scriptures.
    Oh, bummer, did I misunderstand?

    Those scriptures are so ambiguous how could a poor soul like me ever understand?

    Thanks for explaining.

    I'm just a simple soul, a poor little lamb who has lost her way, baa, baa, baa.

    And no I never went to Yale.

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    Truth of Jesus Christ? The truth of Jesus Christ is that He died, was buried, and rose again according to the scriptures; thus becoming the Savior of all men, justifying all men to life, and forgiving the sins of all those who are sealed through faith with the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption.

    Again, you look for what you believe in the Bible, you do not believe what is found therein.

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    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cgaviria View Post
    Because the dead do not have thoughts, since the dead are not conscious. And as such, it is the soul of a man that goes to Sheol at death
    HA HA!

    "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?"
    [/I](Rev.6:9-10).

    The souls of those who were slain must have been sleepwalking!

    HA HA!
    Last edited by Jerry Shugart; February 17th, 2017 at 11:09 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Veritas veritate View Post
    Truth of Jesus Christ? The truth of Jesus Christ is that He died, was buried, and rose again according to the scriptures; thus becoming the Savior of all men, justifying all men to life, and forgiving the sins of all those who are sealed through faith with the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption.

    Again, you look for what you believe in the Bible, you do not believe what is found therein.
    Anyone can make those declarations, doesn't mean they will be spared from judgment of the lava lake. Are you doing the will of God?

    "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. (Matthew 7:21 [NIV])

    Are you breaking God's laws?

    But I will reply, 'I never knew you. Get away from me, you who break God's laws.' (Matthew 7:23 [NLT])

    Have you humbled yourself?

    Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me." (Matthew 19:21 [NIV])

    All the believers were together and had everything in common. They sold property and possessions to give to anyone who had need. Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts, (Acts 2:44-46 [NIV])

    Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

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