User Tag List

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 45

Thread: Black lives matter: heroes, victims, and answer to the BLM

  1. #16
    Out of Order Town Heretic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Within a whisper of rivers...
    Posts
    21,153
    Thanks
    3,952
    Thanked 8,477 Times in 4,950 Posts

    Blog Entries
    15
    Mentioned
    49 Post(s)
    Tagged
    3 Thread(s)


    Rep Power
    2147843
    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    They are all millionaires.
    I wonder which you'd rather have were you in their place, the money, or a life without what made that possible. I'd rather the latter.

    It is part of it mattering what blacks go through.
    Some of it is hard if not impossible to really get from the outside, I'd imagine.

    Rather it is BLM as an action that has led to the death of officers that is troubling to me.
    I don't believe that it did any more than I blame sheets for what the Klan does with them.

    2009 before BLM protests. Maurice Clemmons had been in trouble with the law in the South, but he shot and killed four officers in Lakewood, WA who he had never met. It was an attack on just 'police' for being police.
    I'm surprised there wasn't a lot of that in the South, given the history here.

    I've had a jerk cop or two pull me over (one for not having my lights on at dusk, another for what he called a 'rolling stop' ). I'd never think about attacking another police officer for what a totally different officer had done.
    With respect Lon, that trivializes the root of what actually does lead some to snap, to be so filled with contempt and frustration and anger that they become a reflection of what they hate.

    It is still my contention that police need to be brought back to 'protect and serving' our society instead of 'warring' on drugs and otherwise taking on military actions.
    The war on drugs was a lost one. There are better ways to address it.
    You aren't what you eat, but you're always what you swallow.

    Pro-Life







  2. The Following User Says Thank You to Town Heretic For Your Post:

    patrick jane (June 1st, 2019)

  3. #17
    TOL Legend Lon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    9,965
    Thanks
    2,822
    Thanked 4,865 Times in 2,923 Posts

    Mentioned
    87 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    2147740
    Quote Originally Posted by Town Heretic View Post
    I wonder which you'd rather have were you in their place, the money, or a life without what made that possible. I'd rather the latter.
    Yeah, that one was a tough one for me. If someone told me, stay in this room for 8 years, one million for each year, I think I could do that kind of time. The abuse thrown in with it? Probably not. That's why I'm sympathetic. I hope they get the 10M more each they are looking for.


    Quote Originally Posted by Town Heretic View Post
    Some of it is hard if not impossible to really get from the outside, I'd imagine.
    Except when its your friend, and you feel you are with them in it. It isn't the long-term, but I only saw it in Texas. In Washington State, there is a slight tension, but it is, from what they all have told me, incredibly better. I hope its true.


    Quote Originally Posted by Town Heretic View Post
    II don't believe that it did any more than I blame sheets for what the Klan does with them.
    There was immediate retaliation. What would the Klan do if there was nothing but orange sheets available?

    Quote Originally Posted by Town Heretic View Post
    II'm surprised there wasn't a lot of that in the South, given the history here.
    His action was prejudice as well. Hate does that, both ways. It makes for wars.


    Quote Originally Posted by Town Heretic View Post
    IWith respect Lon, that trivializes the root of what actually does lead some to snap, to be so filled with contempt and frustration and anger that they become a reflection of what they hate.
    In Nikolai's thread about bitterness, we are discussing Job. For Job, it was bitter but the Apostle Paul went through imprisonment reminding the church to 'rejoice' in all circumstances. What we go through will bring out retribution or grace. Discussion like this reminds me that we need to reflect our Savior, and truly "but for grace, there go I." The message then is that crucibles bring out what is already inside of people. I'm at least familiar with the problem of poverty and how it 'locks' one in. In my case, an education truly was what helped. I'm extremely glad you are doing your part and thank God for your success on that point.


    Quote Originally Posted by Town Heretic View Post
    IThe war on drugs was a lost one. There are better ways to address it.
    Same page.
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

  4. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Lon For Your Post:

    patrick jane (June 1st, 2019),Town Heretic (June 10th, 2019)

  5. #18
    TOL Legend Lon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    9,965
    Thanks
    2,822
    Thanked 4,865 Times in 2,923 Posts

    Mentioned
    87 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    2147740
    Quote Originally Posted by Town Heretic View Post
    Of course not, just as there was never a call for White Entertainment Television
    This, imho, is quite different. The movement vs. the sentiment. We cannot have a White Entertainment network, perhaps when we are the smaller group? This is exactly the problem with favoring a group strictly based on their skin color. It is a double-sided knife specifically because their are difference. Differences require concessions, on both sides of a difference that cannot be shared.

    Black Live Matter, in Evergreen College, had professors and students who were white, forcibly removed from the school campus by violence. Of course I'm against that. As a response, 'All lives matter' was more than an appropriate response, and not again, as your friend believes, merely a removal of a sentiment favoring one group. One issue, cannot be entertained without also recognizing the problem as well, and again, "All" means "no you cannot have my house because some white guys long ago bought your relatives as slaves, I had to work hard for my home." There was a point where 'all lives' needed to be said.

    Quote Originally Posted by annabenedetti View Post
    You weren't endorsing censorship, you couldn't be more clear.

    I was remarking on how "all lives matter" wasn't a thing until "Black lives matter" came into being. I guess it sounded scary to certain Whites who had to look around real quick for some kind of protection from the scary idea.
    I believe the lines between lives mattering, and political movements get blurred and a lot on TOL. It must constantly be addressed. As I've said, police were killed. "White" people were abused. If I say something, it is certainly not to diminish the value of any particular people by some association, but rather the sentiment that allows one group to abuse another in the name of a movement. Huge difference.


    Quote Originally Posted by Town Heretic View Post
    or less diversity in film. Most of these people appear to be voicing the resentment of a comfortable majority having to put up with a suddenly vocal minority they once only had to consider when they could assume a vaguely messianic role
    I've been with them when they were suffering injustice. Prayer and love are incredibly better responses rather than approval stamps for anything goes. It simply must be addressed or you look complicit, like telling a cop he can leave the force, he has a choice. It would be equally crass, at least as I see it, to remove Memorial Day and Veteran's and Armed Service simply because "it was their choice." I'm not sure I get this part of what you mean. It doesn't add up to where I can appreciate or make sense of it. It has always been my impression from friends and family in corrections, that most do so as a sacrifice, not just a job.

    Quote Originally Posted by Town Heretic View Post
    You hear worse resentment aimed at minority members who do it from a position of wealth and power, reminding many that they've been lapped in the previously determined oval of social order.
    These always come as a bit of a shock. I yet have to remember that where you live seems incredibly different from where I live.
    Last edited by Lon; June 10th, 2019 at 08:33 PM.
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

  6. #19
    Out of Order Town Heretic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Within a whisper of rivers...
    Posts
    21,153
    Thanks
    3,952
    Thanked 8,477 Times in 4,950 Posts

    Blog Entries
    15
    Mentioned
    49 Post(s)
    Tagged
    3 Thread(s)


    Rep Power
    2147843
    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    This, imho, is quite different. The movement vs. the sentiment. We cannot have a White Entertainment network, perhaps when we are the smaller group?
    The history will be so different. In short, our race was horrible as dominant cultures go, to minorities. We were horrible even to white people who were sufficiently outside the WASP norm for as long as we could manage it. Eventually we got better, with a great deal of help. I doubt we'll find ourselves in a similar position, because ours wasn't so much about numbers as the power that came with it and what we did with it, and failed to do.

    This is exactly the problem with favoring a group strictly based on their skin color. It is a double-sided knife specifically because their are difference. Differences require concessions, on both sides of a difference that cannot be shared. Blue Live Matter, in Evergreen College, had professors and students who were white, forcibly removed from the school campus. Of course I'm against that. As a response, 'All lives matter' was more than an appropriate response, and not again, as your friend believes.
    Mostly he has it right. Outliers are only useful in illustrating the absence of absolutes where human motivation is concerned, but rules remain and their utility is even more important.


    I've been with them when they were suffering injustice. Prayer and love are incredibly better responses rather than approval stamps for anything goes.
    I don't believe many are stamping in that direction. Look, if a team wins a championship in this country some people riot. You'll have that element in any movement. In the case of BLM, where the foundation is about justice, mistreatment and violence experienced by minorities at the hands of the instrument that is supposed to protect and serve them...

    It simply must be addressed or you look complicit, like telling a cop he can leave the force, he has a choice. It would be equally crass, at least as I see it, to remove Memorial Day and Veteran's and Armed Service simply because "it was their choice." I'm not sure I get this part of what you mean.
    You'll have to point me to it. I have a lot of conversations in various places and that phrase while familiar wasn't in the quote that preceded it.

    It doesn't add up to where I can appreciate or make sense of it. It has always been my impression from friends and family in corrections, that most do so as a sacrifice, not just a job.



    These always come as a bit of a shock. I yet have to remember that where you live seems incredibly different from where I live.
    I actually think the South is doing better these days than a good bit of the country. And the resentment I was speaking to was a loudly heard in the heartland as it was anywhere else. And the complaints of the BLM movement are heard and founded in conduct you can look at across the nation.
    You aren't what you eat, but you're always what you swallow.

    Pro-Life







  7. #20
    TOL Legend Lon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    9,965
    Thanks
    2,822
    Thanked 4,865 Times in 2,923 Posts

    Mentioned
    87 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    2147740
    Quote Originally Posted by Town Heretic View Post
    The history will be so different. In short, our race was horrible as dominant cultures go, to minorities. We were horrible even to white people who were sufficiently outside the WASP norm for as long as we could manage it. Eventually we got better, with a great deal of help. I doubt we'll find ourselves in a similar position, because ours wasn't so much about numbers as the power that came with it and what we did with it, and failed to do.
    With revisionist history, I'm ever skeptical of any one part. It seems to me we had a Wild West, then just a West. While I might want to apologize to somebody, it really wasn't you or me or the guy next door. What will indeed help, is help and help with mind changes. I believe the gospel has been and will continue to be the most powerful world-changer.


    Quote Originally Posted by Town Heretic View Post
    Mostly he has it right. Outliers are only useful in illustrating the absence of absolutes where human motivation is concerned, but rules remain and their utility is even more important.
    Again, it was in the face of the inappropriate backlash, not the movement, that caused the 'all lives' reaction. Was the rest of the nation unaware of policemen killed? Evergreen violently ousting white students and professors? If so, your friend may have had a more poignant observation. I don't see it as accurate to what I've seen regarding the movement. It was started in angst and continued in violence. Again, 'all' lives was an appropriate response to what we were seeing. "Blue Lives Matter" was in direct response to that violence. Not the idea that blacks matter.



    Quote Originally Posted by Town Heretic View Post
    I don't believe many are stamping in that direction. Look, if a team wins a championship in this country some people riot. You'll have that element in any movement. In the case of BLM, where the foundation is about justice, mistreatment and violence experienced by minorities at the hands of the instrument that is supposed to protect and serve them...
    In this Country? We've seen it during the world cup between nations. One guy was accidentally killed during the Superbowl aftermath in Philadelphia. It 'seems' your friend unintentionally waves away the repercussion of Blue Lives lost mattering, or white lives battered mattering, in and among the movement. His quote seems at best ignorant, at worst unresponsive, uncaring.

    Quote Originally Posted by Town Heretic View Post
    You'll have to point me to it. I have a lot of conversations in various places and that phrase while familiar wasn't in the quote that preceded it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Town Heretic View Post
    Black is a race. Blue is an occupation. You can take off a uniform, you live with your race.
    "Blue Lives Matter" was the response, directly to "Black Lives Matter" aftermath in which policemen and women, unrelated to any black lives, lost their lives due to only the color of their uniform. It too, was a prejudice movement and the baggage that it carried was equally inappropriate, thus I think your friend's quote shy of concern and somewhat careless (depending upon its force on his audience).



    Quote Originally Posted by Town Heretic View Post
    But it's a choice to put it on, assuming the risk, understanding it's an inherently dangerous job. Being a minority shouldn't be any of those things, inherently.


    I don't want to be shot for holding a TV remote, but I don't want any cops killed for making that horrendous mistake. I don't think by virtue of choice, a police life is worth any less for having done so. If I could change my skin color, I'd not say 'my choice' was the reason for any violence against me, but rather a misplaced prejudice having very little to do with my choice. Likewise, no policeman/woman desires to be shot. There has to be something more said, in response, than just "that's what they chose." It doesn't honor sacrifice nor recognizes it. We don't honor all soldiers on memorial days. Just the ones who served with dignity and honor. I suppose as it goes, perhaps there are a few lives across board that need to be in prison for the rest of their lives, but that's not, I think, included in the "All" generally speaking. There are some vets and their actions I will not honor on Memorial Day and Veterans Day.


    Quote Originally Posted by Town Heretic View Post
    I actually think the South is doing better these days than a good bit of the country. And the resentment I was speaking to was a loudly heard in the heartland as it was anywhere else. And the complaints of the BLM movement are heard and founded in conduct you can look at across the nation.
    Like the prayer meeting? Is there one specific that comes to mind?
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

  8. #21
    Over 6000 post club Aimiel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Detroit, Michigan
    Posts
    6,516
    Thanks
    367
    Thanked 422 Times in 310 Posts

    Blog Entries
    2
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    119706
    Down through history the enemy has always tried to magnify any and every difference through hatred. This has created problems between dear friends, rifts in families, neighborhood scuffles, bar fights, riots, civil wars and world wars. Today is no different, except for the fact that evil men and seducers will wax worse and worse.
    "That man of sin must first be revealed." -- Jesus

    If you haven't tried: you've already failed. -- Aimiel

  9. The Following User Says Thank You to Aimiel For Your Post:

    ok doser (June 11th, 2019)

  10. #22
    Out of Order Town Heretic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Within a whisper of rivers...
    Posts
    21,153
    Thanks
    3,952
    Thanked 8,477 Times in 4,950 Posts

    Blog Entries
    15
    Mentioned
    49 Post(s)
    Tagged
    3 Thread(s)


    Rep Power
    2147843
    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    With revisionist history, I'm ever skeptical of any one part.
    I think we have to distinguish between revisionist history that is an attempt to white wash the egregious or to hijack a historical event for some other purpose, as with people who try to tell others the South left the Union over states rights, with slavery as the issue used on the point, instead of the other way round, and with efforts to revise a false or white washed narrative and replace it with a more accurate picture, as with our initial and subsequent national treatment of Native Americans, or the Japanese.

    It seems to me we had a Wild West, then just a West
    Hollywood sold a romantic lie to most Americans. It was entertaining. Then historians came along to spoil the fun, over time.

    While I might want to apologize to somebody, it really wasn't you or me or the guy next door. What will indeed help, is help and help with mind changes. I believe the gospel has been and will continue to be the most powerful world-changer.
    It's a bit different with black people, because there are still systemic problems and generationally created ones that were rooted in inhumane treatment that gave way to marginalization and disenfranchisement from essential rights by law and social fiat AFTER the issue of their humanity was supposed to have been settled.

    Again, it was in the face of the inappropriate backlash, not the movement, that caused the 'all lives' reaction.
    I think it was more that with some progress in our society having been made, black people began to speak more freely and to demand what was reasonable to demand, to note ongoing wrongs and call for action, which rankled a lot of white society that had treated that progress and the distance of some of the worst conduct by our dominant culture like an inoculation against the disease of societal responsibility.

    Was the rest of the nation unaware of policemen killed? Evergreen violently ousting white students and professors? If so, your friend may have had a more poignant observation.
    His point remains. The hijacking of the BLM standard was, for the reasons offered, a pretty clear attempt to dismiss the complaints and to base that dismissal on the misconduct of some within the movement, turning tables as it were. But when you do that, when you turn tables you had better be sure that they speak to the same degree of abuse. And nothing, nothing like that exists, even if some of the anecdotal occurrences are objectionable.


    I don't see it as accurate to what I've seen regarding the movement. It was started in angst and continued in violence.
    Rather, it was started in outrage and long festering wounds, given a platform/voice by the slow advances made toward enfranchisement within our shared society and, on occasion not to be confused or conflated with the rule, led to some violent acts. Desperate, paranoid people will do that. Then the question should reasonably be, why are so many desperate and paranoid when it comes to authority in this nation and its relation to them?

    Again, 'all' lives was an appropriate response to what we were seeing. "Blue Lives Matter" was in direct response to that violence. Not the idea that blacks matter.
    Sorry Lon, but that doesn't fly and the most obvious rejection of it is the absence of the use prior to BLM, supra.


    In this Country? We've seen it during the world cup between nations.
    Happens more than you appear to realize. Google "rioting and looting in the wake of U.S. sporting events."


    One guy was accidentally killed during the Superbowl aftermath in Philadelphia. It 'seems' your friend unintentionally waves away the repercussion of Blue Lives lost mattering, or white lives battered mattering, in and among the movement. His quote seems at best ignorant, at worst unresponsive, uncaring.
    Actually, he doesn't. In fact, as a former Marine he has great respect for those who serve the public good. His quote seems to me what it is, a clear indictment of elements in the majority who resisted the examination being called for, who side-barred attempts with outraged speeches about how the conversation came to be in the public eye, had attempted to dismiss the genuine by taking a meaningful slogan and attempting to focus the spotlight on something other than what generated the message.

    On the quote that wasn't exactly a quote. I appreciate you finding the thing that sponsored that impression. I'm not sure how it connects to your use with the more direct language. To be black is to be a target for many. It isn't a role or consequence that is chosen by anyone. It's a cradle to grave reality that puts you in more direct and indirect jeopardy and disadvantage than to be a voluntary servant of the people, admirable as that is more often than not.

    I don't want to be shot for holding a TV remote, but I don't want any cops killed for making that horrendous mistake.
    I think if you do the math you'll find the suffering and death in this particular to be comparatively one sided. That most blacks feel strongly about systemic and generational inequity without harboring any wish to see harm inflicted upon the police. I'm equally certain that most policemen don't go about their business fundamentally desiring to perpetuate those inequities.

    I don't think by virtue of choice, a police life is worth any less for having done so.
    And I wouldn't advance that point, supra.

    If I could change my skin color, I'd not say 'my choice' was the reason for any violence against me, but rather a misplaced prejudice having very little to do with my choice.
    But everything to do with what you actually can't change, your color.

    Likewise, no policeman/woman desires to be shot.
    And when they go off duty there's nothing about them that will inherently make that or other abuses more likely, unlike the black person.

    There has to be something more said, in response, than just "that's what they chose."
    To be sure, supra.

    We don't honor all soldiers on memorial days. Just the ones who served with dignity and honor.
    I think we honor the idea, the sacrifice or willingness to sacrifice that comes with choosing or accepting the role. We don't really know how the individual comported themselves, absent some special notice from the time to commemorate it.

    Like the prayer meeting? Is there one specific that comes to mind?
    Anecdotes are only good for illustrating rules found by other means. There are studies aplenty on the imbalance within the justice system in relation to blacks, about the disparity in terms of percentages and poverty, etc. A history of law and social pressures that kept blacks from voting, from prospering, even from being particularly well educated for the most part, from living where they would, from dating and marrying whom they would.

    It's found in the response to noting it and who the largely hostile and negative response came from.
    You aren't what you eat, but you're always what you swallow.

    Pro-Life







  11. The Following User Says Thank You to Town Heretic For Your Post:

    Rusha (June 11th, 2019)

  12. #23
    TOL Legend
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Posts
    26,385
    Thanks
    4,753
    Thanked 10,349 Times in 7,663 Posts

    Mentioned
    40 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    2147797
    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    It is part of it mattering what blacks go through.
    From what i've read, what American ghetto thugs "go through" is very different from what other blacks go through - somali immigrants, for example, or nigerian immigrants, or black Indians from the southern parts of india (who are blacker than the brown folk we call "black". I suspect there may be other factors at play, factors that call attention to the ghetto thugs, justifiably warranted attention from authorities.


    In the case of the central park five, all of them had criminal records

  13. The Following User Says Thank You to ok doser For Your Post:

    Lon (June 11th, 2019)

  14. #24
    TOL Legend
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Posts
    26,385
    Thanks
    4,753
    Thanked 10,349 Times in 7,663 Posts

    Mentioned
    40 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    2147797
    Quote Originally Posted by annabenedetti View Post
    When They See Us – Netflix's gut-wrenching tale of the Central Park Five

    Ava DuVernay pulls no punches in this urgent, astonishing retelling of an assault case that opened a window on injustice in America

    the only problem is that it's a lie:

    Netflix’s False Story of the Central Park Five

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/netflix...ve-11560207823

    but it's a lie that leftists like you want to be true, so you accept it as true

  15. #25
    TOL Legend annabenedetti's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    13,902
    Thanks
    7,929
    Thanked 10,070 Times in 5,645 Posts

    Mentioned
    27 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    2147754
    Quote Originally Posted by ok doser View Post
    the only problem is that it's a lie:




    but it's a lie that leftists like you want to be true, so you accept it as true

    1. You posted an opinion piece.

    2. By Linda Fairstein.




    Tried and waited then got tired, that's about it

  16. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to annabenedetti For Your Post:

    Arthur Brain (June 11th, 2019),Rusha (June 11th, 2019)

  17. #26
    TOL Legend Lon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    9,965
    Thanks
    2,822
    Thanked 4,865 Times in 2,923 Posts

    Mentioned
    87 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    2147740
    Quote Originally Posted by Town Heretic View Post
    Happens more than you appear to realize. Google "rioting and looting in the wake of U.S. sporting events."
    In the U.S. the 'rioting' isn't against people, but tends to be vandalism. It isn't like World Cup rioting where fans attack one another on the field.






    Quote Originally Posted by Town Heretic View Post
    Actually, he doesn't. In fact, as a former Marine he has great respect for those who serve the public good. His quote seems to me what it is, a clear indictment of elements in the majority who resisted the examination being called for, who side-barred attempts with outraged speeches about how the conversation came to be in the public eye, had attempted to dismiss the genuine by taking a meaningful slogan and attempting to focus the spotlight on something other than what generated the message.


    Sorry Lon, but that doesn't fly and the most obvious rejection of it is the absence of the use prior to BLM, supra.


    On the quote that wasn't exactly a quote. I appreciate you finding the thing that sponsored that impression. I'm not sure how it connects to your use with the more direct language. To be black is to be a target for many. It isn't a role or consequence that is chosen by anyone. It's a cradle to grave reality that puts you in more direct and indirect jeopardy and disadvantage than to be a voluntary servant of the people, admirable as that is more often than not.




    I think if you do the math you'll find the suffering and death in this particular to be comparatively one sided. That most blacks feel strongly about systemic and generational inequity without harboring any wish to see harm inflicted upon the police. I'm equally certain that most policemen don't go about their business fundamentally desiring to perpetuate those inequities.




    And I wouldn't advance that point, supra.




    But everything to do with what you actually can't change, your color.




    And when they go off duty there's nothing about them that will inherently make that or other abuses more likely, unlike the black person.




    To be sure, supra.




    I think we honor the idea, the sacrifice or willingness to sacrifice that comes with choosing or accepting the role. We don't really know how the individual comported themselves, absent some special notice from the time to commemorate it.




    Anecdotes are only good for illustrating rules found by other means. There are studies aplenty on the imbalance within the justice system in relation to blacks, about the disparity in terms of percentages and poverty, etc. A history of law and social pressures that kept blacks from voting, from prospering, even from being particularly well educated for the most part, from living where they would, from dating and marrying whom they would.


    It's found in the response to noting it and who the largely hostile and negative response came from.
    1) Black lives matter
    2) Black Lives Matter cannot be defended when associated directly with lost lives. It is a two-wrongs-don't-make-a-right proposition for me. While I appreciate politics and court cases, such are peaceable means rather than violent means.

    How we address the overbalanced crime rates among the populace is important, but we can never excuse a behavior simply because one race is more prone to those actions.

    I must continue to hold us all, regardless of color, to the right standard which means, necessarily, to be color-blind, all lives must matter. Society will continue on a pendulum swing, but I yet believe over-reaction causes worst rifts and strengthens preconceptions rather than makes them go away. Wars cause rifts for several generations and cannot be healed but for the passing of those generations involved.
    My New Years Resolution: 1 Peter 3:15
    Omniscient without man's qualification. John 1:3 "Nothing"
    Colossians 1:17 "Nothing" John 15:5 "Nothing"
    Mighty, ALL mighty (omnipotent). Revelation 1:8
    No possible limitation Isaiah 40:25 Joshua 24:15
    Infinite (Omnipresent) Psalm 145:3 Hebrews 4:13

    Is Calvinism okay? Yep

    Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think... Amen. -Ephesians 3:20 & 21

    1Co 13:11 ... when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways. Titus 3:10 Ephesians 4:29-32; 5:11

    Separation of church and State is not atheism "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..."

  18. #27
    TOL Legend The Barbarian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Posts
    10,438
    Thanks
    264
    Thanked 3,551 Times in 2,399 Posts

    Mentioned
    18 Post(s)
    Tagged
    3 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    434741
    Quote Originally Posted by Town Heretic View Post
    But it's a choice to put it on, assuming the risk, understanding it's an inherently dangerous job. Being a minority shouldn't be any of those things, inherently.

    It shouldn't be, but it is. A guy who lives up the street (used to be a co-worker) recently showed me something that happened in his hometown. A guy in a bar (happened to be white) went berserk and injured some people. A uniformed security guard (happened to be black) disarmed him and took him down. Police had been called. The first police officer into the bar (happened to be white) sized up the situation and shot the security officer dead.

    That's how it works, way too often. From the OP:

    For years now the #blacklivesmatter organization has trotted out "#heroes" and "#victims"as examples of #police #brutality against black people. But is their narrative #trustworthy and #true? Are the circumstances surrounding these individuals evidence to make them into heroes or just plain thugs?
    In this case, the man was a hero. But a to a police officer, the uniform he was wearing was less significant than his color in deciding that he was a thug.
    This message is hidden because ...

  19. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to The Barbarian For Your Post:

    annabenedetti (June 11th, 2019),Rusha (June 11th, 2019),Town Heretic (June 11th, 2019)

  20. #28
    TOL Legend
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Posts
    26,385
    Thanks
    4,753
    Thanked 10,349 Times in 7,663 Posts

    Mentioned
    40 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    2147797
    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    A guy in a bar (happened to be white) went berserk and injured some people.
    Nothing I can find indicates that the original shooter was white. Shaky video of the shooting of the bar patrons shows a black perp.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    The first police officer into the bar (happened to be white) sized up the situation and shot the security officer dead.
    were the lights on in the bar?


    eta: ok, apparently this happened outside the bar, around 4 am, November 11, 2018. What was the lighting like?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooti...Jemel_Roberson




    Quote Originally Posted by The Barbarian View Post
    ... the uniform he (the security guard) was wearing ...
    pics?

    eta: police report denies clothing identifying the guard as security

    autopsy reports don't say

    eta:
    The autopsy report, released to the Daily Southtown in response to a Freedom of Information Act request, also revealed that none of the security guard’s clothing that reached the medical examiner’s office had markings that identified him as security.
    https://www.chicagotribune.com/subur...526-story.html



    additionally, video of the aftermath shows another security guard wearing a vest, calling attention to his vest, but no insignia, no lettering, nothing visible identifying it as security

    so we have a cop responding to an active shooter call
    we have a couple of black guys on the ground, outside in the dark
    the one on top has a gun and no "uniform"
    ordered several times to drop the gun, he fails to comply

    and barbie thinks the cop should have let them both go because they're both black?

    or perhaps he should have radio'd back to base for them to send a black cop to shoot the perp?
    Last edited by ok doser; June 11th, 2019 at 05:20 PM.

  21. #29
    TOL Legend The Barbarian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Posts
    10,438
    Thanks
    264
    Thanked 3,551 Times in 2,399 Posts

    Mentioned
    18 Post(s)
    Tagged
    3 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    434741
    (Barbarian looks it up)

    In the early hours of November 11, 2018, 26-year-old Jemel Roberson was working security at a bar in the Chicago suburbs when a shooting broke out.

    Shortly after Roberson subdued the suspect at gunpoint, police arrived — and fatally shot the black, armed security guard as he pinned the suspect to the ground.

    Now, nearly three months after Roberson’s death, a series of videos released this week by the Cook County Sheriff’s Office show the chaotic scene that unfolded as bystanders reacted to Roberson’s shooting.

    The videos were recorded by police body cameras and bystanders’ cellphones. In one, a security guard who worked with Roberson tells police that Ian Covey, the white officer who opened fire, did so despite being told that Roberson was security. Other witnesses can be heard crying and yelling in the background.

    “Your man shot my man. The police shot security. That’s what happened,” the other security guard says. Later, he continues, saying: “Do you not see us with vests on, bruh? Why would I have a vest on, bruh? This s**t ain’t for fun.”

    The videos do not include footage of Roberson actually being shot by police, however, or the moments that preceded it.

    Roberson’s death has drawn national attention, with critics arguing that the police were too quick to fire. The police department initially argued that Roberson ignored “verbal commands” before the shooting, but later released a second statement claiming that the shooting was a case of “friendly fire,” and that Roberson’s death was a tragic accident...


    O.K. so the police story changed over time. And it went from "He should have obeyed" to "Oops."

    ...
    Roberson “had somebody on the ground with his knee in back, with his gun in his back, like, ‘Don’t move,’” witness Adam Harris told the local news outlet WGN last year.

    When officers from the Robbins and Midlothian police departments arrived, one officer, now identified as Covey, opened fire, killing Roberson. According to witness statements given to local outlets, Covey fired even as witnesses told him to stop. “Everybody was screaming out, ‘Security!’ He was a security guard,” Harris said.

    ...
    The agency added that Roberson was not wearing anything that identified him as a security guard. Gregory Kulis, a lawyer representing Roberson’s mother in the civil rights lawsuit filed after the shooting, said that Roberson had a hat with the words “SECURITY” on it. The videos released this week show that other witnesses on the scene continued to tell officers that Roberson was a security guard in the moments after the shooting, but these accounts were not included in the first news releases from the department.

    Four other people, including a man believed to be the suspect behind the bar shooting, were injured in the incident. The suspect’s name has not been released publicly and no charges have been filed over either shooting.

    After previously identifying Roberson as an “armed subject” in reports, Midlothian Police Chief Daniel Delaney issued a November statement calling Roberson “a brave man who was doing his best to end an active shooter situation.”

    ...
    Witness statements provided to media have suggested that the officer involved in the shooting did not react to cries that Roberson was a security guard. But the statement from the state police argued that the responding officer had no way to know Roberson was security and that he only fired after Roberson did not respond to commands.
    ...

    (other than the hat that said "security" and the security vest)

    ...
    Dorian Myrickes, a colleague of Roberson’s and one of the people injured in the initial gunfight, told the Associated Press last year that he did not hear the police officer issue any commands.

    https://www.vox.com/identities/2018/...an-covey-video

    Can't confirm that the real criminal was white, though. This kind of thing happens way too often.
    This message is hidden because ...

  22. #30
    Out of Order Town Heretic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Within a whisper of rivers...
    Posts
    21,153
    Thanks
    3,952
    Thanked 8,477 Times in 4,950 Posts

    Blog Entries
    15
    Mentioned
    49 Post(s)
    Tagged
    3 Thread(s)


    Rep Power
    2147843
    Quote Originally Posted by Lon View Post
    In the U.S. the 'rioting' isn't against people, but tends to be vandalism. It isn't like World Cup rioting where fans attack one another on the field.
    I didn't compare it to the World Cup. I was underscoring that you have a violent and lawless element that will even attach to celebrations. It isn't indicative of the larger celebration. The same is true for BLM.

    1) Black lives matter
    2) Black Lives Matter cannot be defended when associated directly with lost lives. It is a two-wrongs-don't-make-a-right proposition for me. While I appreciate politics and court cases, such are peaceable means rather than violent means.
    The advance by BLM isn't an advance of violence, but a protest against it and the generational inequity that is the experience of too many blacks in America.

    How we address the overbalanced crime rates among the populace is important, but we can never excuse a behavior simply because one race is more prone to those actions.
    You need to consider what you wrote. Races aren't predisposed to violence. Where you find anger and poverty you find, disproportionately, violence. Where you find that coupled with the sort of frustrating inequity I've noted, you'd expect to find more.

    It's not race, but marginalization, subjugation, disenfranchisement, denial of right, dehumanization, and more over generations, again. A good bit of that still being in play, one way or another.

    I must continue to hold us all, regardless of color, to the right standard which means, necessarily, to be color-blind, all lives must matter.
    Lon, all people aren't experiencing the racially motivated, historical inequity experienced by many black Americans. And in resting on the "all" you do exactly what those who used it mean for you to do.

    Society will continue on a pendulum swing, but I yet believe over-reaction causes worst rifts and strengthens preconceptions rather than makes them go away. Wars cause rifts for several generations and cannot be healed but for the passing of those generations involved.
    Time hasn't done enough. We should.
    You aren't what you eat, but you're always what you swallow.

    Pro-Life







  23. The Following User Says Thank You to Town Heretic For Your Post:

    Lon (June 12th, 2019)

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
About us
Since 1997 TheologyOnline (TOL) has been one of the most popular theology forums on the internet. On TOL we encourage spirited conversation about religion, politics, and just about everything else.

follow us