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Thread: An Advocation of Government

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    Silver Member JudgeRightly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Brain View Post
    Some may but that's hardly a rule of thumb. The welfare system doesn't lend itself towards a comfortable lifestyle and nor should it. It's designed as an aid for people out of work until they find it, not as a means of living itself. (Obviously that's different for people who are unable to work but that's also reflected in the higher rates of allowance). I'm presuming you've never been in a position where you've been unemployed or without any means to cover the essentials without aid?
    I know of people who live on the welfare system, and yet they are very capable persons.

    Nobody's arguing that work is a bad thing, rather that it's bad to deprive those unemployed of no aid whatsoever. Speaking as someone who's both claimed benefits and worked I can say the latter provides a far higher standard of living. Being on benefits didn't stop me from looking for work either.
    And yet your one anecdotal example does not represent the entire population of the US.

    Except your particular 'conservative' idea here wouldn't help people. It would result in an escalation of poverty that would result in more homeless people, not to mention the harm that would come to children because of it in turn.
    Says who? You're forgetting that if the government wasn't taxing everyone so much in order to fund such welfare programs that everyone would be able to make more money when they have a job. A 5% personal increase (income) tax is more than enough to fund the entire government when it performs only it's just functions.

    Jesus Himself said that the poor will always be with us. We're not going to be able to change that. But did you know that the poor in America, because our standard of living is better than most of the rest of the world, live better than the middle class in Europe.

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    Out of Order Town Heretic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    I know of people who live on the welfare system, and yet they are very capable persons.
    Assuming you know them well enough that would be the anecdotal exception not proving any particular rule. If you know someone defrauding the government you should report the theft.

    And yet your one anecdotal example does not represent the entire population of the US.
    As an illustration it actually does. Welfare is subsistence living. Unless you work in fast food/unskilled positions, you can do appreciably better with any full time employment.

    Says who? You're forgetting that if the government wasn't taxing everyone so much in order to fund such welfare programs that everyone would be able to make more money when they have a job. A 5% personal increase (income) tax is more than enough to fund the entire government when it performs only it's just functions.
    The disabled, children, and many who are elderly are incapable of working to sustain themselves and the "just functions" bit is your bias controlling nothing on point.

    Jesus Himself said that the poor will always be with us.
    He wasn't suggesting an indifference in thought or action. Murder will always be present in our imperfect world, but we don't alter our opposition to it over that fact.

    I know that the Lord will maintain the cause of the afflicted, and justice for the poor. Psalm 140:12

    Did not your father eat and drink, and do justice and righteousness? Then it was well with him. He pled the cause of the afflicted and needy; then it was well. Is that not what it means to know Me?" declares the Lord. Jeremiah 22:16

    He who is gracious to a poor man lends to the Lord, and He will repay him for his good deed. Proverbs 19:17

    Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had arrogance, abundant food, and careless ease, but she did not help the poor and needy. Thus they were haughty and committed abominations before Me. Therefore I removed them when I saw it." Ezekiel 16:49-50

    The righteous is concerned for the rights of the poor; the wicked does not understand such concern. Proverbs 29:7

    We're not going to be able to change that
    You can change it for many. The inability to do all good should never preclude the effort to do the good we can do.

    But did you know that the poor in America, because our standard of living is better than most of the rest of the world, live better than the middle class in Europe.
    Our poor are better off than in a large part of the world, which you'd expect from the the richest nation on earth. The "better than the middle class in Europe" is complete nonsense. You may be thinking of a Pew bit that noted our poor live better than the middle class of much of the world. But much of the world lives in abject poverty. By way of example, 56% of Americans were in the world's high income group in 2011. How did they manage it? By living on more than 50 dollars a day. Global income comparatives can lead to a family of four being classified as middle class by virtue of a 15k a year income. And while that might buy you a surprising amount in some third world countries it won't allow you to live here without assistance.
    You aren't what you eat, but you're always what you swallow.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    ... the poor in America, because our standard of living is better than most of the rest of the world, live better than the middle class in Europe.

    "Europe" covers a lot of territory - the middle class in Germany, for example, lives a heckuva lot better than the middle class in most/any/all of the former soviet bloc countries

    your statement may well be true when applied to bulgaria


    prolly not so much for france or austria

    and certainly not Germany or Norway
    Last edited by ok doser; January 30th, 2017 at 08:19 PM.

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    There's no such thing as poverty in America, unless they are the homeless. I refuse to go by what the 1st World calls 'poverty'- how many ways can a society make itself look spoiled

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crucible View Post
    There's no such thing as poverty in America, unless they are the homeless. I refuse to go by what the 1st World calls 'poverty'- how many ways can a society make itself look spoiled
    Your dictionary quote is making more and more sense. When you reserve the right to tailor meaning to suit your bias, you make everything you say suspect and conversation pointless.

    Otherwise it's crackerjack.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Town Heretic View Post
    Your dictionary quote is making more and more sense. When you reserve the right to tailor meaning to suit your bias, you make everything you say suspect and conversation pointless.

    Otherwise it's crackerjack.
    I noticed you failed to actually speak on the the rest of that post. You're just beating a straw man, is all.

    Poverty is a difficult word to define, and your Websters probably has the worst definition there is to it.

    Poverty is much better defined as 'a condition in which the basic needs of food, clothing, and shelter are not met'. But, it can also include illness, no income, no education, and so on.

    What word describes the above if you define poverty as those above those conditions? Super-poverty
    Popular bias is usually short sighted, and it's definitions indicate it.
    Like 'feminism'
    Can you actually look at that word and say that it really matches up to it's popular definition?

    It's an ism.
    Of women.


    You're all fools

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    Over 4000 post club quip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crucible View Post
    There's no such thing as poverty in America, unless they are the homeless. I refuse to go by what the 1st World calls 'poverty'- how many ways can a society make itself look spoiled
    Well, there's more than one form of 1st world poverty...seems you've demonstrated one by way of the second
    _/\_

    Christians: "I - a stranger and afraid - in a world I never made.." -- Houseman

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    Out of Order Town Heretic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crucible View Post
    I noticed you failed to actually speak on the the rest of that post. You're just beating a straw man, is all.
    So you don't understand what a straw man means or how it is used either...or is it that you've altered the meaning?

    And therein lies the problem that makes whatever came after your opening salvo moot.

    There's no such thing as poverty in America, unless they are the homeless. I refuse to go by what the 1st World calls 'poverty'- how many ways can a society make itself look spoiled
    Once you reserve the right to declare reality and refuse its recognition, whatever follows is unintelligible. I cannot rely on what I read to inform me of your meaning.

    Poverty is a difficult word to define, and your Websters probably has the worst definition there is to it.
    My Webster's? Charming, but I don't even own stock, though I put a good bit of stock in it, as should anyone who speaks the language.

    Poverty is much better defined as 'a condition in which the basic needs of food, clothing, and shelter are not met'. But, it can also include illness, no income, no education, and so on.
    Rather, poverty can cover a poetic range, including spirit, but the inability to provide subsistence is the ground floor for assistance in terms of the subject at hand that I spoke to, public charity.

    I reject and omit your attempt to transform a conversation about a thing of moment into another irrational public tantrum rooted in your contempt for women. Go do that elsewhere, I'm done with you on the subject.

    You're all fools
    But who can know what you mean or if you even do?
    You aren't what you eat, but you're always what you swallow.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Town Heretic View Post
    So you don't understand what a straw man means or how it is used either...or is it that you've altered the meaning?
    An intentionally misrepresented proposition that is set up because it is easier to defeat than an opponent's real argument.


    I reject and omit your attempt to transform a conversation about a thing of moment into another irrational public tantrum rooted in your contempt for women. Go do that elsewhere, I'm done with you on the subject.
    Cool story.
    Feminism literally means 'philosophy of women'. That's what it meant from it's start, and you all merely defined it by it's supposed goal. It is why they spend so much time trying to emasculate men, or try to get men to think like them.

    Just so you know

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    Out of Order Town Heretic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crucible View Post
    An intentionally misrepresented proposition that is set up because it is easier to defeat than an opponent's real argument.
    I didn't say you couldn't work the copy function. I wondered if you understood it. You don't appear to, because I didn't misrepresent you. You reserved a right that made anything that followed pointless to grapple with absent a Cruc brand dictionary. I omit what followed for the reason given prior.
    You aren't what you eat, but you're always what you swallow.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crucible View Post
    You're [TH] just beating a straw man.
    You seem to have no idea....
    _/\_

    Christians: "I - a stranger and afraid - in a world I never made.." -- Houseman

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    better to light 'em on fire

  17. #103
    TOL Legend Arthur Brain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    I know of people who live on the welfare system, and yet they are very capable persons.
    There's plenty of capable persons who subsist on benefits so that's not a news story in itself. There are those who claim for disability and get caught for defrauding the system while playing golf or some such but that's an exception to the rule, not the main. To be eligible for unemployment support in the UK, then you have to show you're actively seeking work in order to qualify for it unless you're medically deemed incapable of holding down a job. So sure, there's plenty of capable people on benefits. Most of them want a job.

    And yet your one anecdotal example does not represent the entire population of the US.
    It doesn't represent the entirety of the UK either but as a general rule of thumb it holds up. You're a lot better off in work in the main than you are on standard benefits.

    Says who? You're forgetting that if the government wasn't taxing everyone so much in order to fund such welfare programs that everyone would be able to make more money when they have a job. A 5% personal increase (income) tax is more than enough to fund the entire government when it performs only it's just functions.
    Says common sense. Take away any aid for people out of jobs, both capable and incapable of work and you up the poverty rate. What exactly are these people supposed to live on apart from charitable whim?

    Jesus Himself said that the poor will always be with us. We're not going to be able to change that. But did you know that the poor in America, because our standard of living is better than most of the rest of the world, live better than the middle class in Europe.
    You would actually and willingly add to that number and your latter is just something you pulled out of a hat somewhere.
    Well this is fun isn't it?


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    Silver Member JudgeRightly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Brain View Post
    It doesn't represent the entirety of the UK either but as a general rule of thumb it holds up. You're a lot better off in work in the main than you are on standard benefits.
    So why not encourage people to get jobs instead of sitting around doing nothing?

    Says common sense. Take away any aid for people out of jobs, both capable and incapable of work and you up the poverty rate. What exactly are these people supposed to live on apart from charitable whim?
    You make it seem like people are incapable of doing anything other than what they're already doing. I'm telling you that people are resourceful, that people can learn how to do different things. You see people as mouths to feed, I see them as workers who can provide for themselves and for others.

    You would actually and willingly add to that number and your latter is just something you pulled out of a hat somewhere.
    Again, people who, instead of being fed hand-to-mouth on the installment plan have very little to incentivize themselves to better themselves, whereas people who are hungry will do work to eat, to provide for themselves, and to increase their standard of living.

    Also, as I've said many times, here and in other threads, it is not the government's role or responsibility to take care of it's citizens, only to protect them and provide infrastructure for them. Therefore, the government should not even attempt to take care of its citizens. The role of charity belongs to the individual, or at most, the church.

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    TOL Legend Arthur Brain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    So why not encourage people to get jobs instead of sitting around doing nothing?
    Why on earth would you be so arrogant as to presume those on benefits aren't already being encouraged to find work or in turn that they're "sitting around doing nothing"? Many unemployed people make stringent efforts to find work and part of the 'jobseeker agreement' over here is to be able to prove you're making efforts to find work in order to be entitled to unemployment benefits. You should really educate yourself before making ignorant platitudes like this.

    You make it seem like people are incapable of doing anything other than what they're already doing. I'm telling you that people are resourceful, that people can learn how to do different things. You see people as mouths to feed, I see them as workers who can provide for themselves and for others.
    Not at all and I'm really not sure how you're seeing that from anything I've wrote. Some people are incapable of work through debilitation/illness etc and there's a different set of entitlements available for those whose condition renders them unfit for work in both the long and the short term. I've never once argued that people in general can't learn new things or improve/transfer already existing skills either. I see people as people, simple as that. There's no disconnect with supporting a system that provides for people while out of work along with programs that people can avail themselves of to improve their chances of gaining employment.

    Again, people who, instead of being fed hand-to-mouth on the installment plan have very little to incentivize themselves to better themselves, whereas people who are hungry will do work to eat, to provide for themselves, and to increase their standard of living.
    You've clearly never lived on any sort of benefits have you? Aside from the fact that many areas have a significant dearth of jobs it can be difficult enough for people to get by on the little they have. You seem to think that most people are just lazy or happy enough to exist on subsistence 'living' which says more about you than it does those you seem to so glibly judge.

    Also, as I've said many times, here and in other threads, it is not the government's role or responsibility to take care of it's citizens, only to protect them and provide infrastructure for them. Therefore, the government should not even attempt to take care of its citizens. The role of charity belongs to the individual, or at most, the church.
    You can say it as many times as you like, we don't live under a theocratic government and any government in an 'enlightened' day and age makes provision for the poor.
    Well this is fun isn't it?


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