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Thread: An Advocation of Government

  1. #76
    Teenage Adaptive Ninja Turtle Stripe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glassjester View Post
    A monarchy is only as good as its king.
    A democracy is only as good as its citizens.

    It's a gamble either way.
    Not really.

    From an analytical point of view, a democracy promotes people who are popular, while a king is not as tied to the demands of the masses.

    So if there is a negative correlation between what is right and what is popular, then democracy is inherently inferior.

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  3. #77
    Silver Member JudgeRightly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Brain View Post
    Okay, I'll just level with you from my perspective. You sound like a very indoctrinated youth who doesn't have much experience outside of what you've been 'taught' to think in very restricted boundaries and hence the 'cold' aspect you have in regards to people in general. I hope you overcome that as you certainly aren't stupid.
    Not indoctrinated, no.

    I'm 23, an adult, so perhaps to you, youthful.

    I have enough experience to know that being so open minded that my brains drip out of my skull onto the ground is a bad thing.

    Cold? No. Just aware that there are consequences to actions, and that doing things that look good on the surface, even popular, doesn't guarantee that it's the right thing to do. Liberals such as yourself make it seem like laws and actions that are destructive are not, whereas Christians try to bring forth actions that are good and just, but liberals try to bring them down, making them out to be bad for people.

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    Out of Order Town Heretic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    I'm 23, an adult, so perhaps to you, youthful.
    So, home schooled then barely in the world on your own you think you have its nuance firmly in hand? Your biologically seated judgment centers haven't even finished with construction yet. By which I don't mean to imply you can't then reason or get a thing right, only that you lack much of the experiential and your hardware is still seating a lot of what will feel right to you, judgmentally, in the part of the brain that isn't best equipped to know.

    I have enough experience to know that being so open minded that my brains drip out of my skull onto the ground is a bad thing.
    See, that's bumper sticker rhetoric. The truth is that being open minded isn't being indecisive or unsure. It's simply being open to consideration and examination on a point. And any truth should both invite and withstand that sort of thing.

    Cold? No. Just aware that there are consequences to actions, and that doing things that look good on the surface, even popular, doesn't guarantee that it's the right thing to do.
    You're right that popularity is no litmus for truth. The truth demands more. I'll remind you of that in a minute.

    Liberals such as yourself make it seem like laws and actions that are destructive are not, whereas Christians try to bring forth actions that are good and just, but liberals try to bring them down, making them out to be bad for people.
    Two foundational errors in that. First, you can be a liberal and be a Christian, but only if you understand that being liberal isn't being of one mind on every social and political issue. Second, overly simplified, stereotypical notions of large, diverse groups may feel satisfying to pronounce, may "look good" to you and be popular among those who agree with you, but it's rarely an accurate assessment and it screams partisan bias in lieu of serious, sustainable consideration--a thing any truth merits.
    You aren't what you eat, but you're always what you swallow.

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    Silver Member JudgeRightly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Town Heretic View Post
    So, home schooled then barely in the world on your own you think you have its nuance firmly in hand?
    I'm not homeschooled, but I wish I was.

    Your biologically seated judgment centers haven't even finished with construction yet. By which I don't mean to imply you can't then reason or get a thing right, only that you lack much of the experiential and your hardware is still seating a lot of what will feel right to you, judgmentally, in the part of the brain that isn't best equipped to know.
    I've been learning a lot over the past 2.5-3 years about the Bible, and the world around me.

    See, that's bumper sticker rhetoric. The truth is that being open minded isn't being indecisive or unsure. It's simply being open to consideration and examination on a point. And any truth should both invite and withstand that sort of thing.
    You're saying I don't consider opposing arguments?

    You're right that popularity is no litmus for truth. The truth demands more. I'll remind you of that in a minute.

    Two foundational errors in that. First, you can be a liberal and be a Christian, but only if you understand that being liberal isn't being of one mind on every social and political issue. Second, overly simplified, stereotypical notions of large, diverse groups may feel satisfying to pronounce, may "look good" to you and be popular among those who agree with you, but it's rarely an accurate assessment and it screams partisan bias in lieu of serious, sustainable consideration--a thing any truth merits.
    When using God as one's standard for righteousness and truth, anything that contradicts/goes against Him and His nature is wrong.

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    Out of Order Town Heretic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    I'm not homeschooled, but I wish I was.
    I thought you were. My mistake then. Pubic or private school?

    I've been learning a lot over the past 2.5-3 years about the Bible, and the world around me.
    And I wouldn't disparage that, but consider the next, say, ten years. Do you think you'll know more and understand more, provided you pay attention, than you do at this moment or do you think you're all done? I suspect you'll value the gravitas, consideration and experience life will give you over the coming years. It's true for those who have already gone through many of them too.

    You're saying I don't consider opposing arguments?
    I'm saying you're more prone to make snap and mistaken judgments than you will be in the future. But now and then you'll need to seriously consider whatever you believe the truth is in its particulars and should avoid rejections of other ideas that aren't as complicated in their construction as what you accept. Or, spend the same time and effort understanding what it is you reject and why.

    When using God as one's standard for righteousness and truth, anything that contradicts/goes against Him and His nature is wrong.
    As decided by? Now before you rush to say, "God" recall that an awful lot of people, older, younger, and the same age as you have an awful lot of different opinions and judgments about a great deal of scripture. There are people here who would question your faith if you have a Christmas tree and some who believe you have to work your way to heaven. Others say you must worship on Saturday. Some think you have problems if you're eating pork. And so on.

    Again, you can be a liberal and remain a Christian. You can be an atheist and find comfort in conservatism. Both happen daily. Whenever you find yourself making as broad a declaration as you did it tells me two things, either you're very young and haven't had sufficient time and exposure to understand your error, or you haven't thought it through for some other reason, because their is no reasonable excuse for believing that blunderbuss approach to an opposing ideology.

    I'm a moderate. I view both branches with appreciation and skepticism. I find much admirable and true and a good bit of nonsense in either end, with the white noise increasing the further in and farther out one goes. Before you get to that is a great deal of complicated and worthwhile truth, even in difference.
    You aren't what you eat, but you're always what you swallow.

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  9. #81
    Silver Member JudgeRightly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by quip View Post
    The ideal of a Christian variation on Sharia law doesn't appeal much to me.
    Just thought I'd add...

    You seem to think that Sharia law came before Biblical laws. You are incorrect. The Mosaic laws were written a few millennia prior to the conception of Islam.

    By you saying "Christian variation on Sharia Law," you misrepresent my entire position, and create a straw-man argument. I oppose Sharia Law. It is unjust. If anything, it is a perversion of the Mosaic Law, not the other way around.

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    TOL Legend Arthur Brain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    Not indoctrinated, no.

    I'm 23, an adult, so perhaps to you, youthful.
    You are indeed.

    I have enough experience to know that being so open minded that my brains drip out of my skull onto the ground is a bad thing.
    I doubt that but you do know a rather weak platitude so that's something I guess.

    Cold? No. Just aware that there are consequences to actions, and that doing things that look good on the surface, even popular, doesn't guarantee that it's the right thing to do. Liberals such as yourself make it seem like laws and actions that are destructive are not, whereas Christians try to bring forth actions that are good and just, but liberals try to bring them down, making them out to be bad for people.
    According to you people shouldn't be entitled to the very things essential for survival so do you consider that warm, loving? Supporting laws that increase poverty tenfold is not 'good and just' outside of a very blinkered and callous mentality. Oh, and as TH pointed out people can identify as both liberal and Christian so that's pretty silly on your part.
    Well this is fun isn't it?


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    Silver Member JudgeRightly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Brain View Post
    According to you people shouldn't be entitled to the very things essential for survival so do you consider that warm, loving?
    The problem with that sort of entitlement is that it causes people to become lazy and unproductive. They stop contributing to society.

    I believe this article explains this topic very well.
    https://bible.org/illustration/what-...d-put-creation

    Supporting laws that increase poverty tenfold is not 'good and just' outside of a very blinkered and callous mentality.
    Again, having people work is not a bad thing. Earning a living is not a bad thing. When you make it so that the poor do not have to work to support themselves, you enable them to remain poor on the installment program. When a man works, his standard of living can improve.

    Oh, and as TH pointed out people can identify as both liberal and Christian so that's pretty silly on your part.
    Never said they couldn't be. My point was that liberal ideas tend to harm, whereas conservative Christian ideas tend to help.

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    Over 4000 post club quip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    Just thought I'd add...

    You seem to think that Sharia law came before Biblical laws. You are incorrect. The Mosaic laws were written a few millennia prior to the conception of Islam.

    By you saying "Christian variation on Sharia Law," you misrepresent my entire position, and create a straw-man argument. I oppose Sharia Law. It is unjust. If anything, it is a perversion of the Mosaic Law, not the other way around.

    Sent from my Pixel XL using TheologyOnline mobile app
    The thing about straw-man accusations is that not every critique falls under such a claim. You have to otherwise demonstrate the assertion. Though, they do serve well as quick, out-of-hand dismissals to opposing view-points. Nonetheless....

    I simply compared a country's governance set upon Bible law to Sharia law to illustrate the "unjust" propensities of countries which function under the dogma of a sole, exclusive religious authority and I set out why.


    America hereby dedicates herself to God the Father, Jesus Christ His son and the Holy Spirit.
    This Constitution arises from the Holy Bible's principles of governance...and will be superseded by Christ at His return.
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    TOL Legend Arthur Brain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    The problem with that sort of entitlement is that it causes people to become lazy and unproductive. They stop contributing to society.

    I believe this article explains this topic very well.
    https://bible.org/illustration/what-...d-put-creation
    Some may but that's hardly a rule of thumb. The welfare system doesn't lend itself towards a comfortable lifestyle and nor should it. It's designed as an aid for people out of work until they find it, not as a means of living itself. (Obviously that's different for people who are unable to work but that's also reflected in the higher rates of allowance). I'm presuming you've never been in a position where you've been unemployed or without any means to cover the essentials without aid?

    Again, having people work is not a bad thing. Earning a living is not a bad thing. When you make it so that the poor do not have to work to support themselves, you enable them to remain poor on the installment program. When a man works, his standard of living can improve.
    Nobody's arguing that work is a bad thing, rather that it's bad to deprive those unemployed of no aid whatsoever. Speaking as someone who's both claimed benefits and worked I can say the latter provides a far higher standard of living. Being on benefits didn't stop me from looking for work either.

    Never said they couldn't be. My point was that liberal ideas tend to harm, whereas conservative Christian ideas tend to help.
    Except your particular 'conservative' idea here wouldn't help people. It would result in an escalation of poverty that would result in more homeless people, not to mention the harm that would come to children because of it in turn.
    Well this is fun isn't it?


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    Brenter.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stripe View Post
    So if there is a negative correlation between what is right and what is popular, then democracy is inherently inferior.
    But there isn't.

    If there was, that could be restated as there being a positive correlation between what is right and what is unpopular. That correlation simply does not exist.
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    Democracy was originally defined as parties being present in a council to discuss and make decisions. People today think that it means '51/49 majority', but that is not intrinsic to democracy, it is simply something a democratic council may find reasonable in certain matters.

    Democracy has become an overly grand platitude, despite that it requires a partnering mechanism to even suffice for a country. In a council, people's favor is scrutinized, but in a democratic nation, a vote based on ridiculous bias counts as much as a reasoned one.

    This recent election really opened up a lot of people's eyes in these regards, even through the Left currently rallying up against the Electoral College or bringing up the popular vote in every breath they speak. It's high time to speak on the pitfall of what so many people have evolved into venerating, because the Founding Fathers certainly didn't hold their views and neither has any founder of any country

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    LIFETIME MEMBER aCultureWarrior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post

    ...Our current form of government, which is at it's roots is democratic, is a Constitutional Republic. I say democratic because Americans vote on everything, laws, judges, representatives, senators, and even the leader of the country.

    Yet God makes it very clear that majority rule is wicked, because the majority is wicked. Matthew 7:13-14 says,...
    Yet American citizens "are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights..."

    We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness. DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE
    http://www.gemworld.com/USA-Unalienable.htm

    Who should we blame for not holding our politicians up to those founding principles and not protecting our God-given rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness?
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    There's nothing in the Constitution that states we cannot have biblical laws.

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