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Thread: The grammar of Gal 2 and the folly of 2P2P

  1. #106
    Silver Member Clete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    There is no other gospel. I'm under the impression that MAD thinks there was another gospel preached for a while that would have gone an entirely different direction. It's mad. It's also 2P2P which is a fraud. And then that there is 'unfinished business' that God 'owes' Israel.
    Saying it doesn't make it so.

    Why, if your hypothesis is correct, are there twelve foundations to the New Jerusalem each with one of the names of the Apostles on it? Why aren't there thirteen?

    If your hypothesis is correct, where's the need for a thirteenth Apostle in the first place? Jesus had just spent His entire Earthly ministry training and then supernaturally indwelling the Twelve with the Holy Spirit. Who needs Paul?

    Why was Paul given what he calls, "my gospel", by direct divine revelation rather than being taught it by the Twelve?

    Why did the Twelve, who had been given the so-called "Great Commission" to go unto "all nations" preaching the gospel, agree with Paul to stay and minister in Jerusalem while he (Paul) went to the rest of the whole world?

    Why did the Twelve force their followers, under pain of death by the Holy Spirit Himself, to live in a commune?

    There are many such questions that your doctrine can have no rationally consistent answer too. What you're forced to do is to make the text mean something other than what it plainly states, this thread being an excellent example of exactly that.

    Resting in Him,
    Clete

    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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  3. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by musterion View Post
    Yes, some do. John Hagee does, or did. I think it's called Dual Covenant...Jews are saved by being Jews/the Law, everyone else, the Gospel of grace (which Hagee probably doesn't actually understand). Point is, EVERY mid-Acts dispensationalist would rightly recoil in horror from the idea and repudiate it...yet IP persists...
    Wow. I had no idea.

    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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    TOL Subscriber musterion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    Wow. I had no idea.
    It pained me to read of it years ago when I first stumbled across it (I think from the late Dave Hunt). Not because I've ever followed Hagee (never ever) but because my Dad would often cite things he was saying. So I had to tell him what's what.
    "There is one thing worse than going to Hell. That would be going to Hell and having it be a surprise."
    Terence Mc Lean

    [most will be very surprised]


    Everyone who has not believed the Gospel of grace is not saved, no matter what else they believe or do.
    By that measure, how many professing Christians are on their way to the Lake of Fire?

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    TOL Subscriber musterion's Avatar
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    The point here is, no matter how often we say there is not now two gospels in operation, but only one, IEP will insist that the logic of our position MUST be (a) that there really was only one the whole time, or (b) we are bound to believe "If there WAS two, then there must now STILL be two," or something like that. But then, I've become convinced IEP doesn't actually believe or understand most of what he vomits in threads like this one. Tet had a core from which he, frustratingly, never varied. IEP is literal jello. Extra stupid jello at that.
    "There is one thing worse than going to Hell. That would be going to Hell and having it be a surprise."
    Terence Mc Lean

    [most will be very surprised]


    Everyone who has not believed the Gospel of grace is not saved, no matter what else they believe or do.
    By that measure, how many professing Christians are on their way to the Lake of Fire?

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    Quote Originally Posted by musterion View Post
    He does not look upon the outward man but upon the heart. Water baptism, like any ritual, is outward. Fleshly. Carnal. It indicates NOTHING about a heart.



    Can't water baptize yourself.



    As if your pledge means anything to God in light of the finished work of Christ. You are truly stunning in your arrogance, there is no one on all of TOL as self-righteous as you.



    You are scared of the grammar, and this topic has been worn out elsewhere.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    You are scared of the grammar, and this topic has been worn out elsewhere.
    If you can't compete wherever the thread may drift, don't post or close it. But don't be an evasive little weasel.
    "There is one thing worse than going to Hell. That would be going to Hell and having it be a surprise."
    Terence Mc Lean

    [most will be very surprised]


    Everyone who has not believed the Gospel of grace is not saved, no matter what else they believe or do.
    By that measure, how many professing Christians are on their way to the Lake of Fire?

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    Quote Originally Posted by musterion View Post
    If you can't compete wherever the thread may drift, don't post or close it. But don't be an evasive little weasel.

    Oh, I see, that's why everyone left the topic. Got it.

    They can't compete with a real writer and grammar scholar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    Oh, I see, that's why everyone left the topic. Got it.

    They can't compete with a real writer and grammar scholar

    Or you could comment on the 4 visions of Daniel instead of being mr hot shot.
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    TOL Legend God's Truth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by john w View Post
    1. Slop.Baptism, moron, was one of the righteous requirements of the law-not optional..


    Mt. 3 KJV
    13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him. 14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? 15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him. 16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 and lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.




    What was happening, when John the Baptist was baptizing?



    John's baptism was not something novel, new. No, it was a ceremony thoroughly understood by those who read the scripture(or should have been understood-hence, the Lord Jesus Christ's piercing question to someone who should have understood: "...Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not of these things?"-John 3:10 KJV), and to whom he ministered.


    It is throughout the OT-survey it...Water baptism did not begin with John the Baptist. In the Holy Bible we are able to trace its origin, history,and we see that water baptism is a ceremonial cleansing pertaining exclusively to the kingdom promised to the nation Israel.


    In Exodus 19:5-6 KJV, at the very giving of the Mosaic Covenant, the LORD-God's purpose in giving birth to the nation Israel is unveiled. The LORD God's stated purpose concerning the nation Israel is that she is to be "a kingdom of priests and an holy nation," through whom the Gentile nations will draw nigh to God, i.e., the "channel/instrument" of blessing. Service....witnesses....Survey Isiah:



    "But YE SHALL BE NAMED THE PRIESTS OF THE LORD: MEN SHALL CALL YOU THE MINISTERS OF OUR GOD." Isaiah 61:6 KJV.



    This will be fulfilled, occur, realized during the kingdom reign of the Lord Jesus Christ, on earth, rwhen Israel is dwelling in her land and the nations find salvation and blessing through her instrumentality-priest, ministers, witnesses..... This also explains Zech. 8:23 KJV-Israel will be a nation of priests, the channel instrument, for blessings to the world, in the prophetic program:



    "Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you."



    All of this awaits Israel's future redemption-including physical. The "If ye will obey...then ye shall be" principle of the law assured that this "knowledge of sin" would be everywhere. However, Israel's failure, the nation Israel soon found herself in need of a Saviour, a redeemer, to restore that which was lost, buy them back. Their kinsman redeemer. Thus while the hope of Israel looked to the promised coming kingdom,under which the physical and spiritual benefits of the New Covenant will be realized, in their fullness, the need of the nation for "through the water cleansing" was first needed.



    With this context.............of all the people/ things to be "baptized", in the OT, it was the priest who stood foremost. Exodus 29 KJV sets forth the procedure for "initiation ceremony," induction into the priest's office, the "initiation rights", so to speak. The 2 steps:


    First , cleansing-a washing with water:



    "And Aaron and his sons thou shalt bring unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and SHALT WASH THEM WITH WATER." Exodus 29:4 KJV



    Second, the anointing with oil:



    "Then shalt thou TAKE THE ANOINTING OIL, AND POUR IT UPON HIS HEAD, AND ANOINT HIM." (Exodus 29:7).



    Just as the sons of Aaron were the priests through whom the people of the children of Israel could approach a holy LORD God, so the nation Israel itself will one day be "a kingdom of priests and an holy nation," through whom the Gentiles(not the boc) will draw near to God (Genesis 12:1-3 KJV; Gen.22:17-18 KJV, Isaiah 60:1-3 KJV, Zechariah 8:20-23 KJV..............). It is in this context, that John the B appears on the scene preaching his "...baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel" (Acts 13:24 KJV).



    I.e., the Bpatist's "baptism of repentance for the remission of sins" (Mark 1:4 KJV) was a method of national repentance, and preparation to fulfil their role, their honor, as "elect" to service(not salvation) as the kingdom of priests God, in His grace, ordained that favored nation to be. Survey Matthew 3:1-2:



    "In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."



    And the question..... how, in what way, were the remnant to thus prepare for this coming kingdom, this coming period referred to in Deuteronomy 11:21 KJV as "...the days of heaven upon the earth...."?



    "Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan, And WERE BAPTIZED OF HIM IN JORDAN, CONFESSING THEIR SINS." Mt. 3:5-6 KJV.



    And:



    And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins." Mk. 1:5 KJV.



    "…Now when all the people were baptized…." Luke 3:21



    John the B's commanded baptism was the only means of fleeing from "...the wrath to come" (Matthew 3:7 KJV).



    What was that wrath:?

    "Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. And now also THE AXE IS LAID UNTO THE ROOT OF THE TREES; THEREFORE EVERY TREE WHICH BRINGETH NOT FORTH GOOD FRUIT IS HEWN DOWN, AND CAST INTO THE FIRE. I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: HE SHALL BAPTIZE YOU WITH THE HOLY GHOST, AND WITH FIRE:

    Whose fan is in his hand, and HE WILL THOROUGHLY PURGE HIS FLOOR, AND GATHER HIS WHEAT INTO THE GARNER; BUT HE WILL BURN UP THE CHAFF WITH UNQUENCHABLE FIRE" Mt. 3:8-12 KJV.

    Rough words? It is a rough book...

    The nation's choice: judgment was impending...If they wanted to be the "wheat" safely carried into the barn, and not the "chaff" burned with the fire of judgment, they must be identified(the basic meaning of baptism) as the believing remnant, through the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins-through the water.



    Survey Numbers 31:21-24 KJV.... if they wanted to escape the fire, they must "go through the water!" And thus, they would be "purified with the water of separation" and [U]identified [/U]together as the believing remnant in Israel-set apart as "an holy nation."



    And notice the pattern: wash in water, oil, blood.



    " And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,Take Aaron and his sons with him, and the garments, and the anointing oil, and a bullock for the sin offering, and two rams, and a basket of unleavened bread...And Moses brought Aaron and his sons, and washed them with water.... Lev. 8:1-2 KJV,Lev. 8:6 KJV,Lev. 8:12 KJV



    "And Moses brought Aaron and his sons, and washed them with water" Lev. 8:6



    "And he poured of the anointing oil upon Aaron's head, and anointed him, to sanctify him." Lev 8:12

    Sanctify-to be set apart.i

    "And he slew it; and Moses took of the blood of it, and put it upon the tip of Aaron's right ear, and upon the thumb of his right hand, and upon the great toe of his right foot." Lev. 8:23 KJV



    And notice this!:



    The Lord Jesus Christ comes to the Jordan, is baptized(washed), the Holy Spirit comes upon him(oil), and later he is baptized on the cross with blood:



    " But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able. And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father. " Mt. 20:22,23



    "And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father. And they said unto him, We can. And Jesus said unto them, Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized with shall ye be baptized". Mk 10:38-39 KJV

    "And they said unto him, We can. And Jesus said unto them, Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized withal shall ye be baptized:" Luke 12:50 KJV





    In general Scriptural usage the word baptism indicates complete identification, whether with an element, a person or a group, for the purpose of union, oneness-the basic idea is IDENTIFICATION for the purpose of change in condition/identity. Again, the primary meaning is 'to change the nature, identity, condition, status, and to IDENTIFY something with its purpose' This is why Paul said in Romans 6:3, "As many of us as were baptized into Christ were baptized into his death. "In other words, the only way to become one with Christ is to be identified with Him in His death by faith.

    Notice:



    "And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water." John 1:31 KJV



    The Lord Jesus Christ was being manifest, or IDENTIFIED, as THE PRIEST, to Israel.



    And one of the other reasons for the Lord Jesus Christ submitting to "John's baptism"-this was part of the righteous requirements of the Law to enter the priesthoodness. The Lord Jesus Christ came to fulfill the rigtheous requirements of the entire Law, of which baptism was a part. Again,,,this explains:



    "And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness." Mt. 3:15 KJV



    And this explains the following scriptures:



    "And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age…" Luke 3:23 KJV



    "Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?" John 8:27 KJV



    Ever wonder why the ages of 30 and 50 are emphasized? "Why the heck" would the Jewish leadership ask about "fifty years old?" And why does the Holy Bible take note "for our learning"(Romans 15:4 KJV) that the Lord Jesus Christ was "about thirty years of age"?



    The answer:

    "From thirty years old and upward even until fifty years old, all that enter into the host, to do the work in the tabernacle of the congregation." Numbers 4:3 KJV

    "From thirty years old and upward until fifty years old shalt thou number them; all that enter in to perform the service, to do the work in the tabernacle of the congregation." Numbers 4:30 KJV

    "From thirty years old and upward even unto fifty years old, every one that entereth into the service, for the work in the tabernacle of the congregation…" Numbers 4:35 KJV

    "From thirty years old and upward even unto fifty years old, every one that entereth into the service, for the work in the tabernacle of the congregation…" Numbers 4:39 KJV

    "From thirty years old and upward even unto fifty years old, every one that entereth into the service, for the work in the tabernacle of the congregation,…" Numbers 4:43 KJV

    "From thirty years old and upward even unto fifty years old, every one that came to do the service of the ministry, and the service of the burden in the tabernacle of the congregation." Numbers 4:47 KJV

    "And from the age of fifty years they shall cease waiting upon the service thereof, and shall serve no more…" Numbers 8:25 KJV



    Age 30 was the beginning age for service for the Levitcal priests, and 50 was the ending age:



    "And the LORD spake unto Moses and unto Aaron, saying, Take the sum of the sons of Kohath from among the sons of Levi, after their families, by the house of their fathers…" Numbers 4:1-2 KJV



    And this explains all the Israelites at the Jordan being "baptized"-this was there initiation rite into being a "kingdom of priests". This has no reference to the body of Christ in this dispensation.



    2.And he observed the law, walked on water, was crucified, did not speak in tongues..............


    And?
    How do you think Jesus being baptized means we shouldn't?
    Oh how I love the Word of God!

    Do not just read the word do it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    Or you could comment on the 4 visions of Daniel instead of being mr hot shot.

    Hi and you are the EVASIVE ONE that can not say how you were saved under your one GOSPEL !!

    If you can never explain Acts 9:6 and 1 Cor 12:3 and 1 Tim 1:15 and 16 , HOW can you say that you are SAVED ??

    Tell me if you can CALLOW ONE ??

    dan p

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    Quote Originally Posted by DAN P View Post
    Hi and you are the EVASIVE ONE that can not say how you were saved under your one GOSPEL !!

    If you can never explain Acts 9:6 and 1 Cor 12:3 and 1 Tim 1:15 and 16 , HOW can you say that you are SAVED ??

    Tell me if you can CALLOW ONE ??

    dan p

    Dan,
    apparently that's not the problem. The MAD friends don't think there is two available now. So there isn't any question about that. The question is whether there ever were two.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    Dan,
    apparently that's not the problem. The MAD friends don't think there is two available now. So there isn't any question about that. The question is whether there ever were two.

    Hi and you are AVOIDING and being EVASIVE as to post 116 and the reason is , because you do not know so let's give a clue to the LEFTY'S #1 . The word LORD in Acts 9:6 , then Rom 10:9 , 1 Cor 12:3 and of course 1 Tim 1:15 and 16 , especially since you have a DEGREE and I do not , should be easy for you !!

    And I have just explained HOW I was saved !!

    So , how were you saved and , by the way do not use Paul as you are Anti-Paul and give verses like I did , IF YOU CAN ??

    dan p

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    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    They can't compete with a real writer and grammar scholar
    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    They can't compete with a real writer and grammar scholar
    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    You're too literal to get it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    The New Covenant preceded the Old Covenant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by God's Truth View Post
    How do you think Jesus being baptized means we shouldn't?
    Clueless. The Lord Jesus Christ followed, fulfilled the law-baptism was one of the righteous requirements of the law, as you have been shown.

    So, sit down, shut up, and sober up, perverter of the gospel of Christ.

    By that "argument," go to a cross.
    Saint John W

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    Quote Originally Posted by SaulToPaul View Post

    that's right STP, I wouldn't pass you on Greek grammar if you tried your Gal 2 tricks. 'Euangelizo' is one gospel and there are ways in Greek of saying that they were preaching different ones, namely, '(verb) tes euangeles.'
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