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Thread: The earth is flat and we never went to the moon

  1. #3601
    TOL Legend Clete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post
    You've answered a fool according to his folly. Now its time to not answer a fool according to his folly.

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    I have done no such thing! I've done just the precise opposite.

    I have answered questions and rebutted arguments with sound reason and with the patience of Moses. I've not responded to moronic arguments with more moronic arguments. I've not met the fool with foolishness. In fact, I've learned more than I expected to learn from participating in this thread. Arguing a round Earth is not the intuitively easy task one might expect it to be and there are real people out there who actually do think the Earth is flat! Not making an argument in favor of the truth would be the foolishness. But there comes a point where people are no longer debating, no longer trying to decide which is right and which is wrong. It is at that point that you ought not continue making arguments and should start pointing at the real problem, which in this case is indeed foolishness on David's part, which is why he's now on my ignore list.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    There's also no evidence that Dave has done any of the tests or experiments we have given him to do that show exactly how our universe works, on the small scale, that he doesn't need high tech equipment to do, and are relatively cheap or that he can use items lying around his house to do. He has become inherently intellectually dishonest.

    I think now would be a good time for me to go through this thread and list all the unanswered questions and arguments made to him...
    I'm not so sure that we need a list of all of the unanswered questions. If Dave would simply address Knight's question about sun sets, that would be a great place to start.

    The "flat earth model" fails miserably on that one.
    Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    They can't compete with a real writer and grammar scholar
    Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

    Has Amos 9:15 been cancelled?

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    Over 750 post club Derf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    I have done no such thing! I've done just the precise opposite.

    I have answered questions and rebutted arguments with sound reason and with the patience of Moses. I've not responded to moronic arguments with more moronic arguments. I've not met the fool with foolishness. In fact, I've learned more than I expected to learn from participating in this thread. Arguing a round Earth is not the intuitively easy task one might expect it to be and there are real people out there who actually do think the Earth is flat! Not making an argument in favor of the truth would be the foolishness. But there comes a point where people are no longer debating, no longer trying to decide which is right and which is wrong. It is at that point that you ought not continue making arguments and should start pointing at the real problem, which in this case is indeed foolishness on David's part, which is why he's now on my ignore list.
    I think you've misunderstood my point. What you've done, admirably and (mostly) patiently, is to attempt to correct the folly of a fool, or "answer a fool according to his folly". What you are now doing, admirably, is to cease doing so, or "answer not a fool according to his folly".

    I don't think wise Solomon would ever suggest that we meet a fool with foolishness. I have altered the order from Solomon (my apologies), but it makes sense that way. The preceding (now following, retaining the reverse order) also makes sense:

    Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit. [Pro 26:5 KJV]
    Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him. [Pro 26:4 KJV]
    A whip for the horse, a bridle for the ***, and a rod for the fool's back. [Pro 26:3 KJV] (Are we censoring the good King James these days?)

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  6. #3604
    Your powers are weak, old man. Knight's Avatar
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    Hey Dave you mentioned that you posted a time lapse video of the sun setting which you claim demonstrates the sun disappearing into the horizon. I would like to check that video out. But this thread is a long one and I can't find it. Can you point me to it or better yet... repost it?

    Thanks in advance.
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  8. #3605
    Your powers are weak, old man. Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    ...on David's part, which is why he's now on my ignore list.
    What's the point in ignoring him?

    This has been a fun thread. Frustrating at times? Yes. But still fun.
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  10. #3606
    TOL Legend Clete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knight View Post
    What's the point in ignoring him?

    This has been a fun thread. Frustrating at times? Yes. But still fun.
    I agree that this has been a terrific thread, one of the best in a long time, in fact. But I just think Derf's point is right. It's become counter productive and while I'm more than happy to continue debating the topic, Dave is no longer debating. He has barely debated the topic from the beginning and now it just seems to me that he's decided to stubbornly cling to what he has been repeatedly shown to be not only false but just flat out dumb, and engaging him any further would seem to suggest that for him to do so is okay. It's not okay. He harms himself and, in the minds of those unbelievers he interacts with, the reputation of the whole Christian faith. If he were an atheist, I'd argue with him till the cows come home, but he's a believer. That makes his mindlessness harmful to all of us.

    If Dave decides to repent and begins to actually debate the issue with some intellectual honesty, I'll reconsider. Until then, I'm not going to waste my time arguing with someone (especially a professing believer) who has turned off his mind.

    Clete
    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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  14. #3608
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudgeRightly View Post
    cool video.

    Flat earthers must believe that the moon is many times smaller than it is which accounts for its apparent size in the sky.

    I wonder then how they account for the fact that our current understanding of both the Moon's size (it's mass) and it's distance accounts perfectly for the tides and that a linear reduction in mass along with a decrease in distance would not make the numbers come out right in an attempt to figure out the tidal forces because of the inverse square law.

    In other words, if an object is half as far away, in order for its apparent size to remain the same, its size must be reduced by half as well. But gravity doesn't work in this linear fashion. An object that is half as far away doesn't pull twice as hard, it pulls four times as hard. This exponential relationship between the pull of gravity and the distance of an object makes the flat earth model unworkable. There is simply no way to rigorously account for the observable facts of reality from within their ridiculous model.

    Clete
    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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    Silver Member JudgeRightly's Avatar
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    https://www.reddit.com/r/space/comme...out_this_view/

    No, the roundness of the earth in this gif is not caused by a fisheye lens.

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    Over 750 post club Derf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    cool video.

    Flat earthers must believe that the moon is many times smaller than it is which accounts for its apparent size in the sky.

    I wonder then how they account for the fact that our current understanding of both the Moon's size (it's mass) and it's distance accounts perfectly for the tides and that a linear reduction in mass along with a decrease in distance would not make the numbers come out right in an attempt to figure out the tidal forces because of the inverse square law.

    In other words, if an object is half as far away, in order for its apparent size to remain the same, its size must be reduced by half as well. But gravity doesn't work in this linear fashion. An object that is half as far away doesn't pull twice as hard, it pulls four times as hard. This exponential relationship between the pull of gravity and the distance of an object makes the flat earth model unworkable. There is simply no way to rigorously account for the observable facts of reality from within their ridiculous model.

    Clete
    How do we determine the mass of the moon? Isn't it by the orbit it is in, its apparent size, and the effects it has on the earth, including the tides? If the moon were just 3000 miles away, and it's apparent size were the same, then to make its gravity the same would mean a decrease in density/mass.

    I'd be curious to see what the flat earth model would do for the tides, with the moon and sun pulling in the same direction (up). But even before that, you have to find out how they pretend to deal with the gravity of the moon and sun, since the earth gravity is generated by acceleration. How do the sun and moon stay in their 2-d precessing circular orbits around the vertical extension of the north pole?

    If the gravity is generated by acceleration, the tidal bulges become...what? daily sloshing from a wobble in the flat earth as it accelerates upward?

    And, once you get back to talking about acceleration causing the appearance of gravity, there are so many other things to deal with--like the problem of the atmosphere being held in place by...what? the ice walls? They sure have to be a lot bigger than the few hundred feet or even thousand feet shown in Dave's pictures.

    I tend to agree with Knight that it's an interesting discussion, because you have to get beyond the things you've been taught all your life. But i also agree with you that Dave isn't really wanting to consider the evidence.

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    Black Rifles Matter Nick M's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evil.Eye.<(I)> View Post
    Much of this is blunt honesty... but... Dave Loves Jesus and that is a plus!
    Always remember;

    Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made.

    Dave has said many true things here. This anti-Bible makes no sense other than to discredit his own arguments in other places.
    Jesus saves completely. http://www.climatedepot.com/ http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

    Titus 1

    For there are many insubordinate, both idle talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, whose mouths must be stopped

    Ephesians 5

    11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them. 12 For it is shameful even to speak of those things which are done by them in secret

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    Black Rifles Matter Nick M's Avatar
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    I had not looked at my "friends" list in more than a year. Maybe 2, I don't remember. I had to make sure Dave was not on it, he wasn't. Sadly, I saw 2 that are deceased. But we will see them again some day.
    Jesus saves completely. http://www.climatedepot.com/ http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

    Titus 1

    For there are many insubordinate, both idle talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, whose mouths must be stopped

    Ephesians 5

    11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them. 12 For it is shameful even to speak of those things which are done by them in secret

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  24. #3613
    TOL Legend Clete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post
    How do we determine the mass of the moon? Isn't it by the orbit it is in, its apparent size, and the effects it has on the earth, including the tides? If the moon were just 3000 miles away, and it's apparent size were the same, then to make its gravity the same would mean a decrease in density/mass.
    A decrease that would be dramatic in the extreme!
    3000 miles is 1.26% of its actual distance. It would have to be made of mostly nothing at all for the gravity to remain the same. Flat Earthers know this. It doesn't move them an inch. They are fully irrational.

    I'd be curious to see what the flat earth model would do for the tides, with the moon and sun pulling in the same direction (up). But even before that, you have to find out how they pretend to deal with the gravity of the moon and sun, since the earth gravity is generated by acceleration. How do the sun and moon stay in their 2-d precessing circular orbits around the vertical extension of the north pole?
    Well, they consider the whole thing to be one contiguous system that is accelerating together.

    The real problem with their exceleration idea is the fact that accelerating at 1G gets you to the speed of light in about a year (353 days). Just how fast do the Flat Earthers think the Earth is moving?

    If the gravity is generated by acceleration, the tidal bulges become...what? daily sloshing from a wobble in the flat earth as it accelerates upward?

    And, once you get back to talking about acceleration causing the appearance of gravity, there are so many other things to deal with--like the problem of the atmosphere being held in place by...what? the ice walls? They sure have to be a lot bigger than the few hundred feet or even thousand feet shown in Dave's pictures.

    I tend to agree with Knight that it's an interesting discussion because you have to get beyond the things you've been taught all your life. But i also agree with you that Dave isn't really wanting to consider the evidence.
    There are so many problems with the Flat Earth model that they can hardly be exhausted. We're over 3600 posts on this thread alone. If the material here is insufficient to convince anyone that the flat earth model is ridiculous then it's just proof that they aren't interested in being convinced.

    Clete
    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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    TOL Legend Clete's Avatar
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    Dave,

    I've remembered something that has caused me to remove you from my ignore list! There is something I want you to see.

    I happen to agree with you about the need to question modern cosmology. Relativity and Quantum Mechanics don't cut it for me any more than they do for you. But this flat Earth model is contemptible stupidity.

    I was skimming back through the early posts in this thread and remembered something that I want to bring up to you now. I had hoped to bring this up as an alternative AFTER you had decided to reject this flat earth crap but that never happened and I had forgotten about my intention to bring this up.

    I'd like for you to watch the following video...



    I want to state quite clearly that I do not endorse everything said in this video. Some of it is clearly off the deep end and I simply despise the fact the those who produce this video are the same lot that wants people to believe in the ancient alien nonsense but IGNORE ALL THAT and just listen to the arguments and pay attention to the evidence the speaker presents. I offer up this video not because it nails the ideas down realy well but because it serves as a good primer to the whole idea. The idea being that you don't have to make up "dark matter" and "dark energy", dozens of dimentions, multiverse and all sort of other exotic things to explain the observable universe. And I think that this Electric Universe idea has potential as a cosmology that is not only consistent with what can be directly observed but consistent also with a biblical worldview. All without having to turn off our minds in order to accept it.

    Clete
    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    The real problem with their exceleration idea is the fact that accelerating at 1G gets you to the speed of light in about a year (353 days). Just how fast do the Flat Earthers think the Earth is moving?
    Col 2:9 (AKJV/PCE)
    (2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    1Tim 4:10 (AKJV/PCE)
    (4:10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    They can't compete with a real writer and grammar scholar
    Something that was SPOKEN OF since the world began CANNOT be the SAME thing as something KEPT SECRET since the world began.

    Has Amos 9:15 been cancelled?

    Eph 2:8-9 (AKJV/PCE)
    (2:8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: (2:9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.

    The list: http://theologyonline.com/entry.php?...quot-list-quot Great Bible software: http://www.theword.net/

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