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Thread: Trump Has A Mandate

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    Quote Originally Posted by annabenedetti View Post
    You mean like W had?


    You're saying the conservatives fear our government and its checks and balances working the way they were designed to work? Do you fear that?

    And a single President before that, the GOP was in charge of everything. How did that work out for us?
    that only reinforces the point that rebulicans now lead by Trump have a mandate, as voters in general will have a change of heart on ineffective leadership by any party, Bush was bad so voters gave Obama a chance at change, Obama was a terrible president so voters are now giving rebulicans another shot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rocketman View Post
    And you cannot prove if every vote was legally cast so, the notion that the popular vote is even a valid number is in question. The final tally was 306 vs. 232, Trump ended up with 74 more electoral votes than did Clinton which is the standard for winning the presidency and he beat her handily, the senate & house both maintained full majorities that translates into a republican mandate to change the direction of the country...period.
    You can't question the popular vote without questioning the electoral college. The states directly use their vote totals to chose their EC delegations, and news organizations use those same official tallies to figure out the popular vote. If there were corruption like Trump has been claiming, dangerously and without evidence, they should be pushing to prove it, because it would make the EC result just as bad. The fact that they aren't, the fact that they are trying to halt recount efforts proves that it is merely rhetoric. And it's really anti-democratic rhetoric, used to undermine the validity of elections. Coming from a President-elect, this is extremely troubling.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Town Heretic View Post
    California natives and the party at large could facilitate a significant migration of voters without remotely losing their majority, helping those activists move to other parts of the country where their numbers can then lock up the EC in line with the popular vote. What's a year or so in a life against the impact?
    it would be kinda of funny to see a radical leftist living in California move to pennsylvania in order to swing future elections but his new job ends up being financially tied to the coal mining and fracking economies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kmoney View Post
    we have to prove that every single vote is valid?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Town Heretic View Post
    Rather, anyone disputing the validity of the votes has the burden of proof and the assumption is that absent that the numbers are exactly what they purport to be...an additional irony over the dispute by the winning side is that those same numbers generated the EC victory, divided along state lines. So if the process is inherently suspect the outcome is equally suspect no matter who wins.
    Maybe in your mind but, since this institution has been working for well over 200 years with few instances of the vote being split between Popular & Electoral it is only the losers that are decrying the system is broke. Furthermore, given there is no way to validate the popular vote without a voter identification system in place the popular vote winner cannot claim victory to that number even if it was the standard, which it is not. All you have is sour grapes that your candidate could not sell her wares outside of liberal urban cities.


    Quote Originally Posted by Town Heretic View Post
    He won the EC, a victory of imagination over representation, but that's the game and everyone knew it going in so all's fair in love and politics.
    Imagination? Not so much, the electoral vote is the only vote that counts under the constitutional system that framers set up, move to a banana republic if you want mob rule. Clinton knew the standard going into this election, everyone knew the standard, and if you cannot meet the standard you lose, it is easy to whine about the rules when they don't work in your favor at the outcome. Sour Grapes...


    Quote Originally Posted by Town Heretic View Post
    Only a Republican could translate losing the popular vote handily, and losing seats in the House and Senate into a mandate to change directions.

    More like an ellipsis.
    Which party controls this government? Democrats won 1 senate seat and 10 house seats...I wouldn't call that a stunning victory by any stretch and given that since 2010 democrats have lost 900+ state legislature seats, 12 governors, 69 House seats, 13 Senate seats, one would have conclude that the democrat party is on a roll.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ok doser View Post
    we have to prove that every single vote is valid?
    If you want to say that there was widespread fraud favoring Clinton then yes I do think the burden is on you to show it. Or are we just doubting the popular vote because who knows and why not?

    If Trump had won the popular vote I'm quite confident that his supporters would be using that to press for him having a mandate even more. But since he didn't, oh, it doesn't matter. It could be fraud, EC is all that matters, etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kmoney View Post
    If you want to say that there was widespread fraud favoring Clinton ...
    what would you accept as evidence?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ok doser View Post
    what would you accept as evidence?
    The allegations seem to be mostly about illegals voting, so maybe a list of voter names compared to one of legal residents?

    Luckily it isn't on me to come up with evidence since I'm not making the claims.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kmoney View Post
    The allegations seem to be mostly about illegals voting, so maybe a list of voter names compared to one of legal residents?

    Luckily it isn't on me to come up with evidence since I'm not making the claims.

    i could make up a list for you

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    Quote Originally Posted by rocketman View Post
    Maybe in your mind but, since this institution has been working for well over 200 years with few instances of the vote being split between Popular & Electoral it is only the losers that are decrying the system is broke.
    I'm not saying it's broken. In examining the whole thing I've just about concluded that the dangers and efforts needed to end the EC are worse than the cure, though it does seem to be happening more lately and maybe if that continues the cost/benefit will shift.

    Outside of that, whoever makes the claim bears the burden. That's just an axiom of proof.

    Furthermore, given there is no way to validate the popular vote without a voter identification system in place the popular vote winner cannot claim victory to that number even if it was the standard, which it is not.
    That's an assertion/assumption. No serious study has ever indicated a statistically valid problem of election tipping fraud in our national history. Until that's sustained it's just political gamesmanship, whichever side is complaining. So Reagan, Bill, etc. can absolutely rest on their popular mandates and Hillary can rightly note that absent some proof to the contrary, millions more desired to see her ensconced than the fellow who won the land over hands contest.

    That said, unless and until we do away with the EC, that's the way the old political cookie crumbles and people rending garments over it is just a waste of time. The election is over. It's time to move to the next thing.

    All you have is sour grapes that your candidate could not sell her wares outside of liberal urban cities.
    You keep doing that, rm. You need to read me more widely because this is the second time you've missed the mark widely. I actually and repeatedly called for people not to vote for either. I didn't want either of these snake oil salesmen in the White House, so I'd be sour by either margin. I called her a near perfect storm of everything I dislike in politicians. Trump? As bad if in a different approach.

    But you're not being fair about the demographic. Hillary had a lot of support outside of cities. Over half the electorate went with her and a good bit of that electorate doesn't live inside a few urban centers. It's just that this was, relatively speaking, a really close election.The concentrations were enough to help Trump carry areas outside of them, many of those by not so much. Anyway, a win is a win, close or by a mile.

    Imagination?
    Sure. If you've ever flown over the country in an airplane (or, I suppose, anything else that flies) you'll notice there aren't any actual lines on the topography below.

    Not so much, the electoral vote is the only vote that counts under the constitutional system that framers set up,
    Completely undisputed by me.

    move to a banana republic if you want mob rule.
    See, that's funny. You want "mob rule" too, only you like the way we've imagined carving up that mob. There's no magic in the EC. It's only reflecting that carving.

    Clinton knew the standard going into this election, everyone knew the standard, and if you cannot meet the standard you lose
    I've held no other opinion. I've said as much in this very thread, I believe.

    Which party controls this government?
    Who seem confused on the point?

    ..I wouldn't call that a stunning victory by any stretch
    Me either. I also wouldn't call it a mandate for the side that actually lost seats.

    and given that since 2010 democrats have lost 900+ state legislature seats, 12 governors, 69 House seats, 13 Senate seats, one would have conclude that the democrat party is on a roll.
    I'd conclude that when you look at the demographics of the party and the opposition you have a problem over the long haul. Obama was terrific as a rallying point for conservatives. Now the voices that made their living saying no and pointing fingers have the opportunity to put up and make their case.

    Interesting times to live in.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffblue101 View Post
    Bush was bad so voters gave Obama a chance at change, Obama was a terrible president so voters are now giving rebulicans another shot.
    Nice try, but the two situations aren't at all comparable.

    On his way out of office, W. Bush was struggling to maintain a 30% approval rating. On his way out of office, Obama is pushing a 60% approval rating.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jose Fly View Post
    Nice try, but the two situations aren't at all comparable.

    On his way out of office, W. Bush was struggling to maintain a 30% approval rating. On his way out of office, Obama is pushing a 60% approval rating.
    Obama might as well have an approval rating of 100 as it didn't help his party to maintain control. 60% or 30% makes no difference since both Obama and Bush ended up with the same fate which is handing over the keys to the White House to the opposition party which controls the majority of state and federal legislative bodies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffblue101 View Post
    Obama might as well have an approval rating of 100 as it didn't help his party to maintain control. 60% or 30% makes no difference since both Obama and Bush ended up with the same fate which is handing over the keys to the White House to the opposition party which controls the majority of state and federal legislative bodies.
    The approval ratings show that your "Obama was so bad..." line simply isn't true. A solid majority of Americans approve of the job he's done, very close to the ratings Reagan was getting on his way out.
    "The way to deal with superstition is not to be polite to it, but to tackle it with all arms, and so rout it, cripple it, and make it forever infamous and ridiculous." --H.L. Mencken

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jose Fly View Post
    The approval ratings show that your "Obama was so bad..." line simply isn't true. A solid majority of Americans approve of the job he's done, very close to the ratings Reagan was getting on his way out.
    if Obama was so good then democrats would not have lost control of the majority of U.S. legislative bodies. The "third term of Obama" would have never come close to losing swing states if the approval rating actually meant something.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffblue101 View Post
    if Obama was so good then democrats would not have lost control of the majority of U.S. legislative bodies. The "third term of Obama" would have never come close to losing swing states if the approval rating actually meant something.
    Democrats didn't show up in the midterms in 2010, then the Republicans gerrymandered themselves into being almost unremovable. Republicans have been destroying democracy for some time now. It's just becoming more obvious now.
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