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Thread: Fundamental question: how can the one David referred to be his son?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    Just knock it off and reconstruct what happened there when he shut down the Pharisees.
    Barking orders? Are you a Mod now?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    When you place it so important as to miss that Christ jesus and his gospel was what it was all about, you are worshipping David. You then think he will be reincarnated. You think his son has a magic power. These things are only true in Christ, but if they had been true in the sense which Judaism held, there would not have been the stubborn silence of rejection found in those conversations in Mt 22.

    The NT is saying that those passages are about Christ as we now know him. They are not meant in the ordinary sense about a theocracy to be set up in Judea back then or in our future.


    Poor skeptic
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    You're too literal to get it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post

    We know that Judaism was looking for David's son to appear because of all the MAD/D'ist people here obsessed with that.
    We know that many in Israel were looking for David's son to appear because Israel's prophets said so.

    There were no MADists there. MAD stands for Mid-Acts-Dispensationalism, which respects the Lord Jesus selection of Saul of Tarsus to be his unique Apostle to the nations, post-Pentecost, post-Stephen's death.

    (D'ism is a way of doing Judaism with a modern twist).
    Dispensationalism recognizes GOD's setting aside the nation of Israel from their former position of privilege and has no connection to Rabbinical Judaism.

    So it was logical in Mt 22:42 to do a climactic come-back to Judaism, to all its pesky questions. 'What do you (Judaism) think about the Christ? Whose son is he?'
    Yhe fact which Christ was pin-pointing in Mt 22:42-45 was not a denial that He was the literal genealogical descendant of King David, but that He was both that and LORD/Deity at the same time.
    Christ's deity was the reality that the Pharisees, Scribes...leadership of Israel could not accept and repeatedly attempted to kill Him for claiming it.

    We know the answer.
    Actually...you don't appear to.


    But this is not what Ps 110 is saying. The psalm is saying that he is the Lord of the universe, and David's lord. So he can't just be David's son as they knew it.
    True.

    That is the whole point.
    No...it's half the point.

    Christ is not then nor in the future to be that kind of son.
    You mean He's not intended to be the 'kind of son' that is the legitimate heir of His father David's throne as GOD plainly declared through the Prophets?


    It is not what those passages were about.
    Yes, they are. They are about David's Son as being both LORD/Deity and Messiah/man.


    They were shadows or copies or 'types' of the reality that was coming in Christ.
    No, it's plain fact.


    D'ism and MAD, like Judaism, are stuck in the former.
    Dispensationalists believe what GOD says literally about the SON of David. It's too bad, you don't.

    By the way, he won.
    Indeed, He did.

    I'm not sure if D'ism gets that.
    We get it and more than you understand.

    Then came ch 23, the blast on Judaism, which ends with the declaration that the 'house' is already desolate (the term from Dan 9, which pops up again in 20 verses), except for those who sing Psalm 118 about him.
    The 'blast' was on that generation and leadership of the nation of Israel for their unbelief.

    Those that sing Ps 118 were multitudes of Israelites in Mt 21:9 as Christ fulfilled Zech 9:9, literally. He will fulfill Zech 9:10 in the future just as literally.
    Another generation of called Israel, to whom the Kingdom will be given, will yet address Christ, "Baruch habah b'shem Yeshua Adonai!!!".



    THE SETTING
    But we can't forget that this comes after the general dismissal of Judaism in 21's vineyard parable and 22's wedding parable. The vineyard parable was 'talking about them.' He said another 'ethne' was going to take the place of Judaism. Not just take the place either. There would be destruction. There was going to be a king whose wedding invite was chided. The refused king sends his ARMY and BURNS down the city of the refusers. It was a pretty rough week for Judaism in general.
    The dismissal was of the religious leadership of Israel and the unbelieving populace of Israel in that generation.

    The 'another ethne/nation' will be another generation of that people....Israel.

    Luk 12:32 Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.



    The Body of Christ in this dispensation is not 'a nation' but is a new creation composed of believers from all nations without partiality. The 'nations', as a group, are now grafted into the position of blessing and privilege which Israel formerly occupied as the chosen nation.

    And now this--this denunciation of their doctrine of the son of David, which is what our friends here think is still going to happen.
    Their doctrine of the son of David lacked the recognition of His Deity. They were not wrong concerning the physical lineage from which the Son of David was to come. The physical lineage of Luke 3 and the Kingly lineage of Mt 1, GOD placed there for an important reason. You evidently think they're not important.


    Apparently they can accuse people of making God a liar, but if God punishes a whole city for the wrong 'son of David' and then blesses that city X000 years later for the wrong son of David, it's OK. Yeah, right.
    Well, He obviously wasn't the wrong Son of David and He won't be at 'His appearing and His Kingdom'. 2Ti 4:1
    Jer 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD[YHVH], that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
    Jer 23:6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he[the Branch] shall be called, THE LORD[YHVH] OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

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    Quote Originally Posted by steko View Post
    He was of that lineage and it mattered immeasurably.
    Christ Jesus, because of His lineage, is the only man since Jehoachin qualified to inherit the throne of David.
    Yeppers.

    For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

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    Quote Originally Posted by steko View Post
    We know that many in Israel were looking for David's son to appear because Israel's prophets said so.

    There were no MADists there. MAD stands for Mid-Acts-Dispensationalism, which respects the Lord Jesus selection of Saul of Tarsus to be his unique Apostle to the nations, post-Pentecost, post-Stephen's death.



    Dispensationalism recognizes GOD's setting aside the nation of Israel from their former position of privilege and has no connection to Rabbinical Judaism.



    Yhe fact which Christ was pin-pointing in Mt 22:42-45 was not a denial that He was the literal genealogical descendant of King David, but that He was both that and LORD/Deity at the same time.
    Christ's deity was the reality that the Pharisees, Scribes...leadership of Israel could not accept and repeatedly attempted to kill Him for claiming it.



    Actually...you don't appear to.




    True.



    No...it's half the point.



    You mean He's not intended to be the 'kind of son' that is the legitimate heir of His father David's throne as GOD plainly declared through the Prophets?




    Yes, they are. They are about David's Son as being both LORD/Deity and Messiah/man.




    No, it's plain fact.




    Dispensationalists believe what GOD says literally about the SON of David. It's too bad, you don't.



    Indeed, He did.



    We get it and more than you understand.



    The 'blast' was on that generation and leadership of the nation of Israel for their unbelief.

    Those that sing Ps 118 were multitudes of Israelites in Mt 21:9 as Christ fulfilled Zech 9:9, literally. He will fulfill Zech 9:10 in the future just as literally.
    Another generation of called Israel, to whom the Kingdom will be given, will yet address Christ, "Baruch habah b'shem Yeshua Adonai!!!".





    The dismissal was of the religious leadership of Israel and the unbelieving populace of Israel in that generation.

    The 'another ethne/nation' will be another generation of that people....Israel.

    Luk 12:32 Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.



    The Body of Christ in this dispensation is not 'a nation' but is a new creation composed of believers from all nations without partiality. The 'nations', as a group, are now grafted into the position of blessing and privilege which Israel formerly occupied as the chosen nation.



    Their doctrine of the son of David lacked the recognition of His Deity. They were not wrong concerning the physical lineage from which the Son of David was to come. The physical lineage of Luke 3 and the Kingly lineage of Mt 1, GOD placed there for an important reason. You evidently think they're not important.




    Well, He obviously wasn't the wrong Son of David and He won't be at 'His appearing and His Kingdom'. 2Ti 4:1
    Very good post.

    For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tambora View Post
    Very good post.


    It is full of mistakes. Basic fundamental mistakes about what happened. D'ism is very much the continuation of what Judaism was saying. Just look at Jn 12:34 about Messiah's reign. I can't write about it tonight though. Manana.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tambora View Post
    Yeppers.

    There is no NT indication anywhere that it matters. It was FULFILLED. Do you understand the difference between type and reality? Between shadow and reality? But look at what kind of event the Gospel is, Rom 3:21-31. What is the NEED? Ie, what need is there for anything to go back to what you are talking about? it was trying to go forward to FULFILLMENT which is why Hebrews will never fit inside D'ism and why D'ism is part of the stream of mistakes made by Judaism, replacing the promise with itself/Law.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SaulToPaul View Post


    Poor skeptic


    There can't be any skepticism when its not there, which is the case in Hebrews, and all ordinary-language NT passages on the question. It is a fantasy of modern times.
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    You mean He's not intended to be the 'kind of son' that is the legitimate heir of His father David's throne as GOD plainly declared through the Prophets?
    Christ the son of David, was anointed King over Israel at His baptism and He did reign for over three years and then He was killed.

    So you see only Christs reign from the Heavenly Jerusalem upon His Fathers Throne with all of His saints is yet to be fulfilled completely.

    All this talk about a future throne of David is just religious junk from man.

    LA
    My theology is that the elect of Israel became the scattered church among the nations, and when filled up with the full number of gentiles who believe to become one with them, then Christ will return and gather them, and God will then pour out His wrath on the unbelievers of both Jew and Gentile.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lazy afternoon View Post
    Christ the son of David, was anointed King over Israel at His baptism and He did reign for over three years and then He was killed.

    So you see only Christs reign from the Heavenly Jerusalem upon His Fathers Throne with all of His saints is yet to be fulfilled completely.

    All this talk about a future throne of David is just religious junk from man.

    LA

    Not sure about the 'reigning 3 years' concept, but the rest is obviously true.

    I don't know what it will take for D'ists to realize there is NO NEED for what they think will happen, but I am not able to communicate that yet. The strongheld misconception exists about the other gospel in Acts. Or that the apostles validated another. Not.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    There is no NT indication anywhere that it matters. It was FULFILLED. Do you understand the difference between type and reality? Between shadow and reality? But look at what kind of event the Gospel is, Rom 3:21-31. What is the NEED? Ie, what need is there for anything to go back to what you are talking about? it was trying to go forward to FULFILLMENT which is why Hebrews will never fit inside D'ism and why D'ism is part of the stream of mistakes made by Judaism, replacing the promise with itself/Law.
    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    They can't compete with a real writer and grammar scholar
    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    You're too literal to get it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    The New Covenant preceded the Old Covenant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    I don't know what it will take for D'ists to realize there is NO NEED for what they think will happen,
    Why do you DESPISE the idea of the 2nd Adam doing what the first one failed to do?


    Gen 1
    27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

    28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.



    1 Cor 15
    24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

    25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

    26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    They can't compete with a real writer and grammar scholar
    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    You're too literal to get it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    The New Covenant preceded the Old Covenant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SaulToPaul View Post
    Why do you DESPISE the idea of the 2nd Adam doing what the first one failed to do?


    Gen 1
    27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

    28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.



    1 Cor 15
    24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

    25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

    26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

    I don't. I reject YOUR location, which Judea in a millenium on earth. Nothing supports that. It is Christ in the NHNE, where 'the streets have no name'--there are no nations, etc. You are trying so hard to find 'Israel-Uber-Alles' in the Bible. Waste of time.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    I don't. I reject YOUR location, which Judea in a millenium on earth. Nothing supports that. It is Christ in the NHNE, where 'the streets have no name'--there are no nations, etc. You are trying so hard to find 'Israel-Uber-Alles' in the Bible. Waste of time.


    Become a Bible believer.
    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    They can't compete with a real writer and grammar scholar
    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    You're too literal to get it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    The New Covenant preceded the Old Covenant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SaulToPaul View Post


    Become a Bible believer.


    I am--the kind that uses the NT to interp the OT. You would never end up with your position if you accepted the NT interp of the OT. Like snowflakes in hell. 2P2P dangles from just a few misunderstood verses, not whole chunks like 2 Cor 3-5, Hebrews, Gal 3-4. That is is why it/you are so hostile when they are truly unpacked. Why you have such obtuse beliefs as 2 gospels in Acts.
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