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Thread: Open Theism Destroys Arminianism??

  1. #226
    Over 750 post club Derf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    So according to your view even though the LORD knows the heart of all men and knows their thoughts He was blind when it came to knowing what was in the mind of Abraham. Once again you prove that you are willing to stand reason on its head in order to cling to your mistaken ideas.

    You have gone from an assertion that the LORD actually knew the heart of one man to admitting that He knows the thoughts of all men but now you say that He didn't really know the thoughts of Abraham.



    So you think that the author of Hebrews was just guessing about what was on the mind of Abraham, even though Paul says that "all Scripture is given by inspiration of God" (2 Tim.3:16)? And then to top it off you take a victory lap!
    Only when it's deserved, Jerry. Only when it's deserved!

    You've obviously been reading into my posts your own point of view, just like you have been reading it into the scriptures. I made a distinction between our thoughts and our actions. And I think God does too. Certainly we can have evil thoughts, but we don't always act on them. And we can just as well have righteous thoughts and NOT act on them. How soon before we act or don't act do we make that decision? I don't know. But if it's right before we act, then there's just enough time for God to read Abraham's thoughts and determine that he really was going to sacrifice Isaac--and stop him. Before that time, Abraham could have backed out.


    How can you claim victory since you did not even attempt to answer my points about this subject:
    Because you referred me to someone that agreed with ME. That's as good as a concession in my book!
    Do you really think that the LORD's threat to destroy all the Jews except for Moses should be taken literally? I cannot take it literally because that causes a huge problem concerning the tribe from which the Lord Jesus was prophesised to come from. If Moses destroyed all the descendants of Judah how is it possible that the Lord Jesus would come from that tribe (Gen.49:10)?

    And how could the prophecies concerning the descendants of Jacob's other sons be fulfilled? After all, the LORD said this:

    "God is not like people. He tells no lies. He is not like humans. He doesn't change his mind. When he says something, he does it. When he makes a promise, he keeps it" (Num.23:19).
    So you are willing to take the prophecies literally (which came from Jacob), but not willing to take what God says directly literally? This amazes me! Since when do YOU get to decide if God really means what He says? Isn't that what started this whole mess in the first place?
    1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, 'You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?" [Gen 3:1 NIV]

    The serpent was saying, "You're not going to take God literally when He said that, are you?"

    And even better, Eve replied with something that was NOT what God said literally, but something that was altered, and she claimed God said it:
    3 but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.' " [Gen 3:3 NIV]

    We do ourselves and God a great disservice when we say He didn't really mean what He said, or when we say we know better what God really meant to say.

  2. #227
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post
    We do ourselves and God a great disservice when we say He didn't really mean what He said, or when we say we know better what God really meant to say.
    Since you are so sure that we must always take what the LORD says literally about His plans then I am sure that you havea good answer to this point which I made earlier.

    Do you really think that the LORD's threat to destroy all the Jews except for Moses should be taken literally? I cannot take it literally because that causes a huge problem concerning the tribe from which the Lord Jesus was prophesised to come from. If Moses destroyed all the descendants of Judah how is it possible that the Lord Jesus would come from that tribe (Gen.49:10)?

    And how could the prophecies concerning the descendants of Jacob's other sons be fulfilled? After all, the LORD said this:

    "God is not like people. He tells no lies. He is not like humans. He doesn't change his mind. When he says something, he does it. When he makes a promise, he keeps it"
    (Num.23:19).

    First you argue that He changes His mind despite what is said there. Are you now willing to assert that sometimes He says something and then does not do it?

    I really want to hear your opinion about what I said.

    Thanks!

  3. #228
    Over 750 post club Derf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Since you are so sure that we must always take what the LORD says literally about His plans then I am sure that you havea good answer to this point which I made earlier.

    Do you really think that the LORD's threat to destroy all the Jews except for Moses should be taken literally? I cannot take it literally because that causes a huge problem concerning the tribe from which the Lord Jesus was prophesised to come from. If Moses destroyed all the descendants of Judah how is it possible that the Lord Jesus would come from that tribe (Gen.49:10)?

    And how could the prophecies concerning the descendants of Jacob's other sons be fulfilled? After all, the LORD said this:

    "God is not like people. He tells no lies. He is not like humans. He doesn't change his mind. When he says something, he does it. When he makes a promise, he keeps it"
    (Num.23:19).

    First you argue that He changes His mind despite what is said there. Are you now willing to assert that sometimes He says something and then does not do it?

    I really want to hear your opinion about what I said.

    Thanks!
    I'm not disagreeing with Num 23:19--you are! You said God is not ABLE to do what He said He would do with Moses. I'm saying I don't know how He would do it, but that I believe He could.

    You are saying it is impossible for God to do what He said here: 10 Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation. [Exo 32:10 KJV]

    I'm saying it's not impossible with God, because: "with God all things are possible." [Mat 19:26 KJV]

    Listen, Jerry. I'm not saying God's statements about consuming Israel and making Moses great were His main plan; I don't think they were (and scripture is pretty clear in that). And I'm not saying God wasn't using the opportunity to test Moses, knowing that up until then Moses had been very meek and humble. My first thought when reading Ex 32:10 is always that God was testing Moses and wasn't planning to destroy Israel to make Moses a great nation.

    But Ex 32:14 (So the Lord relented from the harm which He said He would do to His people) is pretty clear that something was going on in God's mind about destroying Israel, OR it is a verse that conveys a falsehood about God. You've picked the latter option, I pick the former. I must say that you take on a great responsibility in deciding what God meant throughout the Bible when you think He doesn't really mean what He says.

    And if Jerry Shugart can come up with one meaning, Derf and millions of others might come up with numerous other meanings. It turns the bible into a man-centered book, and one where the more powerful get to decide what it means. I don't believe God intended the bible to be interpreted that way.

    Spoiler
    And be careful how you interpret. in your post, you said
    If Moses destroyed all the descendants of Judah...
    But Moses wasn't the one that was threatening to destroy Israel and Judah--that was God.

  4. #229
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post
    And if Jerry Shugart can come up with one meaning, Derf and millions of others might come up with numerous other meanings.
    Your ideas are based on the strange idea that the LORD did not know the thoughts of Abraham when he offered up Isaac despite the fact that the Scriptures reveal that He knows the thoughts of all men.

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    Over 750 post club Derf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Derf
    And if Jerry Shugart can come up with one meaning, Derf and millions of others might come up with numerous other meanings
    Your ideas are based on the strange idea that the LORD did not know the thoughts of Abraham when he offered up Isaac despite the fact that the Scriptures reveal that He knows the thoughts of all men.
    My ideas are based on the strange idea that one might read scripture and actually believe what it says--not just in the Abraham story, but in the Moses story, the Hezekiah story, and many others.

    My ideas are based on the idea that God knows the thoughts, including Abraham's, but early thoughts don't always translate into later actions, therefore they don't reveal actual results. In fact, the Abraham story ideally illustrates that God knows the thoughts that ARE, but doesn't necessarily know the thoughts that are NOT YET, since He waited until Abraham was poised to strike the death blow before stopping him.

    And apparently you don't have an answer to my Moses scenario, since you jump back to the Abraham story and ignore everything I said about the Moses scenario.

    YOU asked me to comment on your statement:
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    I really want to hear your opinion about what I said.
    And then you jump back to a tired defense that has already been discussed without addressing what I said.

    The quote that you used from my post ("And if Jerry Shugart can come up with one meaning, Derf and millions of others might come up with numerous other meanings") was exactly the thing that you decided to do--go back to your pre-drawn conclusions instead of letting the text speak for itself.

    But I take this consolation from your post--I think you might be considering what I'm saying, but don't want to admit it just yet. Hopefully that's the case. I'm willing to go through it again, if it's helpful to you--just let me know.

  6. #231
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post
    My ideas are based on the idea that God knows the thoughts, including Abraham's, but early thoughts don't always translate into later actions, therefore they don't reveal actual results.
    Here are the thoughts of Abraham concerning his intentions in regard to Isaac:

    "By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called: Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure"
    (Heb.11:17-19).

    The LORD certainly knew those thoughts of Abraham and therefore He knew that Abraham would not hestiate to kill Isaac. And knowing those things the LORD certainly knew this is "bold" about Abraham before he took the knife:

    "And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me"
    (Gen.22:12).

    Here is what we know about those who fear the LORD:

    "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, And the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding"
    (Prov.9:10).

    Of course Abraham feared the LORD because to him the LORD inspired reverence, godly fear, and awe. Therefore, he had a true knowledge of the Holy One and that is the result of fearing Him.

    But according to you the LORD really did not even know if Abraham feared the Him until he took the knife in hand. Of course Abraham had reverance, godlyfear, and awe of the LORD before he took the knife in hand because he believed that the LORD would raise up Isaac from the dead if he killed him. Besides that, you would have us believe that the LORD imputed righteous to Abraham at a time before he feared the LORD (Gen.15:5-6).

    You say that it is impossible that the LORD knew that Abraham feared Him until he took the knife in his hand! Imagine that! The Lord imputed righteousness to Abraham even before he feared Him:

    "For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness"
    (Ro.4:3).

    Unfortunately you are unable to distinguish between things which should be taken literally and things that should not be understood in that sense.

  7. #232
    Over 750 post club Derf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Here are the thoughts of Abraham concerning his intentions in regard to Isaac:

    "By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called: Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure"
    (Heb.11:17-19).

    The LORD certainly knew those thoughts of Abraham and therefore He knew that Abraham would not hestiate to kill Isaac. And knowing those things the LORD certainly knew this is "bold" about Abraham before he took the knife:

    "And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me"
    (Gen.22:12).

    Here is what we know about those who fear the LORD:

    "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, And the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding"
    (Prov.9:10).

    Of course Abraham feared the LORD because to him the LORD inspired reverence, godly fear, and awe. Therefore, he had a true knowledge of the Holy One and that is the result of fearing Him.

    But according to you the LORD really did not even know if Abraham feared the Him until he took the knife in hand. Of course Abraham had reverance, godlyfear, and awe of the LORD before he took the knife in hand because he believed that the LORD would raise up Isaac from the dead if he killed him. Besides that, you would have us believe that the LORD imputed righteous to Abraham at a time before he feared the LORD (Gen.15:5-6).

    You say that it is impossible that the LORD knew that Abraham feared Him until he took the knife in his hand! Imagine that! The Lord imputed righteousness to Abraham even before he feared Him:

    "For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness"
    (Ro.4:3).

    Unfortunately you are unable to distinguish between things which should be taken literally and things that should not be understood in that sense.
    I think what we are dealing with here is what is called the "part-to-whole" fallacy. That's where you assume that what is true in one instance is true in all instances. And I think you are doing it twice.

    Let me explain.

    Firstly, when you quote Heb.11:17-19, you don't make any distinction in time. You assume that Abraham always had that kind of faith in God. But we know people have different levels of faith, and I think we can say there are different levels of fear of God. Jesus didn't throw His disciples into the world all at once at the beginning of His ministry. He taught them for awhile, then He sent them out, and then He taught them some more and sent them out some more. Then He warned them over and over again that He was going to be killed prior to His crucifixion, and they still had a hard time with it, but when He rose, He came to them and explained things some more and showed them His hands and feet and the wound in his side. And that was still not enough! They still needed the Holy Spirit to give them the full understanding of what was going on.
    John 14:26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have told you.
    Abraham had strong faith to leave his home and family to go to a foreign land. His faith grew stronger as he went through difficulties with the people he dealt with (he lied twice about Sarai not being his wife--where was his faith??), but it wasn't perfected yet. Did God know before Isaac was even born that Abraham would be willing to sacrifice him? I don't think so. Remember that Abraham laughed when God told him he would have a son by Sarah. His faith was not perfected then, but it was growing stronger.

    Secondly, when you talk about God knowing the thoughts of Abraham, you make no distinction of when Abraham had those thoughts, so there's another time distinction. You seem to think Abraham was ready to sacrifice Isaac from the moment he was born, or even before he was born. But before he was born, Abraham was still dealing with whether he could have a child, and whether he could have one by Sarah. He certainly wasn't thinking about sacrificing his not-yet-son. So if God knew at that time that Abraham would be willing to sacrifice Isaac, it wasn't from knowing his thoughts, and it wasn't from knowing how great faith he had when he left his family. It had to have been from knowing what was going on in Abraham's mind as he prepared Isaac for the journey to Moriah, as he bundled up the sticks for the sacrifice, as he traveled for three days, as he explained to Isaac that God would provide a sacrifice knowing all the while that Isaac was the sacrifice. And as the journey continued, we don't know what was going through Abraham's mind--whether he had doubts (I expect he did) or whether he was ready to turn back at any point. But God did. He knew those thoughts all along the way. And at the end, God said "Now I know...", because he saw that Abraham, despite the doubts, was willing to go through with it. To persevere to the end. In the following verse, the love (of God, I suppose, or maybe of brother to brother) changes, but those that maintain their love until the end are the ones that are saved:
    [Mat 24:12-13 KJV] 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

    So the 2 points on which you are committing the part-to-whole fallacy is that you don't recognize Abraham's growth in faith (you think his fear of God was completely mature from the very beginning), and you think that God was able to know all of Abraham's thoughts at every instance of Abraham's life. Maybe these two points are one and the same. Whatever the case, it might be a result of your understanding of time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post
    Firstly, when you quote Heb.11:17-19, you don't make any distinction in time. You assume that Abraham always had that kind of faith in God.
    From what is said in those verses it is certain that Abraham had that kind of faith before the time when he took the knife to kill Isaac:

    "By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called: Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure" (Heb.11:17-19).

    The reason Abraham offered up Isaac is because he thought that the LORD would raise Isaac up from the dead--"accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead."

    Those thoughts of Abraham cannot be in regard to what he was thinking after he took the knife because the passage is giving the reason why Abraham was willing to offer up Isaac.

    Let us look at this verse again:

    "And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me" (Gen.22:12).

    Again,here is what we know about those who fear the LORD:

    "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom
    , And the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding"
    (Prov.9:10).

    We can see the same truth expressed here:

    "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge, but fools despise wisdom and instruction"
    (Prov.1:7).

    When we search the Scriptures we can see that Abraham had this knowledge of the Holy One way before the events at Genesis 22:12:

    "And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness" (Gen.15:5-6).

    Although Abraham was childless he believed what the LORD told him, proving that Abraham feared the LORD because to him the LORD inspired reverence, godly fear, and awe. Therefore, he had a true knowledge of the Holy One and that is the result of fearing Him.

    But according to your ideas the LORD did not even know if Abraham had a fear of Him until he took the knife to slay Isaac.

    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post
    But we know people have different levels of faith, and I think we can say there are different levels of fear of God.
    You make a distinction between different so-called levels of fearing God despite the fact that the Bible never does. Besides that, before Abraham offered up Isaac his faith was sufficient so that he was declated righteous in the eyes of the LORD.

    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post
    So the 2 points on which you are committing the part-to-whole fallacy is that you don't recognize Abraham's growth in faith (you think his fear of God was completely mature from the very beginning)...
    I know that Abraham's fear of the LORD was a fact well before He offered up Isaac and you have said absolutely nothing which proves it wasn't.

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