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Thread: Open Theism Destroys Arminianism??

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    Over 500 post club Derf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    I cannot believe that when the LORD told Hezekiah that he would die and then changed his mind had anything to do with Him seeing Hezekiah's future. I believe that the LORD was aware that he had a fatal disease and was going to die in short order no matter what. It was Zecekiah's plea for a longer life which lead to the Lord to heal him so that he lived another fifteen years.

    And of course the LORD's change of mind can only be understood in a "figurative" sense, the figure of speech known as "Anthropopathy--Ascribing to God what belongs to human & rational beings."

    Can you see the possibilty of things happening that way?

    Thanks!
    You're contradicting yourself. What is a fatal disease? One that will kill you IN THE FUTURE.

    Also, an anthropopathism is an ascribed FEELING or EMOTION. What feeling is being ascribed to God in these passages?

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    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post
    You're contradicting yourself. What is a fatal disease? One that will kill you IN THE FUTURE.
    That has nothing to do with seeing the future and then as a result of that knowledge changing the present. Instead, by looking at Hezekiah in his present condition the LORD knew that it was fatal. Do you deny that the LORD can know the health of those He created in their present condition and does not have to know anything about their future in order to know that someone will die in short order?

    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post
    Also, an anthropopathism is an ascribed FEELING or EMOTION. What feeling is being ascribed to God in these passages?
    That figurative sense also includes the LORD changing His mind as men do.

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    Over 500 post club Derf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    That has nothing to do with seeing the future and then as a result of that knowledge changing the present. Instead, by looking at Hezekiah in his present condition the LORD knew that it was fatal. Do you deny that the LORD can know the health of those He created in their present condition and does not have to know anything about their future in order to know that someone will die in short order?
    Of course he could tell what kind of disease it was. And of course he could also tell what the future would be in your view. But you can't tell the difference. It's your systematic that is telling you which to believe.
    That figurative sense also includes the LORD changing His mind as men do.
    That's not a feeling or emotion. It's a copout to call it such. And ascribing a changing of God's mind to God when he didn't really change His mind seems to be ascribing a lie to God's word.


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    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post
    Of course he could tell what kind of disease it was. And of course he could also tell what the future would be in your view. But you can't tell the difference. It's your systematic that is telling you which to believe.
    The LORD knew that Hezekiah's malady was fatal and He also knew that his death was imminent if He didn't intervene. There is nothing which even hints that the LORD's action in regard to Hezekiah was shaped or formed by something which He saw in the future.

    Quote Originally Posted by Derf View Post
    That's not a feeling or emotion. It's a copout to call it such. And ascribing a changing of God's mind to God when he didn't really change His mind seems to be ascribing a lie to God's word.
    Do you really think that the LORD did not know beforehand if Abraham actually had faith or not until he took a knife to kill Isaac?:

    "And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me" (Gen.22:12).

    If we are to take this literally then we must believe that before Abraham took the knife the LORD did not know whether or not he feared Him (or had reverence for Him). And then He had a change of mind about that when He saw Abraham actually take a knife to kill Isaac.

    But that idea is ridiculous. The LORD know the heart of man and does not need to see anything from man in order to know whether or not a person fears Him:

    "But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart"
    (1 Sam.16:7).

    So it is evident that the LORD knew that Abraham feared Him before He saw Abraham take the knife. His mind did not really change about this when He saw him take the knife. Besides that, earlier the LORD knew that Abraham feared Him (Gen.15:6).

    So are you going to say that the Lord was telling a fib when He said those things to Abraham?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    The LORD knew that Hezekiah's malady was fatal and He also knew that his death was imminent if He didn't intervene. There is nothing which even hints that the LORD's action in regard to Hezekiah was shaped or formed by something which He saw in the future.
    Good! so you agree with me that God didn't look into the future for either the first prophecy (he would die of the disease) or the second one (he would survive the disease). That's great. Then if God wasn't going to prolong Hezekiah's life in the first case, but He was going to in the second case, then He must have changed His mind between the two.

    So your following diatribe about Abraham is unnecessary.

    Do you really think that the LORD did not know beforehand if Abraham actually had faith or not until he took a knife to kill Isaac?:

    "And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me" (Gen.22:12).

    If we are to take this literally then we must believe that before Abraham took the knife the LORD did not know whether or not he feared Him (or had reverence for Him). And then He had a change of mind about that when He saw Abraham actually take a knife to kill Isaac.

    But that idea is ridiculous. The LORD know the heart of man and does not need to see anything from man in order to know whether or not a person fears Him:

    "But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart"
    (1 Sam.16:7).

    So it is evident that the LORD knew that Abraham feared Him before He saw Abraham take the knife. His mind did not really change about this when He saw him take the knife. Besides that, earlier the LORD knew that Abraham feared Him (Gen.15:6).

    So are you going to say that the Lord was telling a fib when He said those things to Abraham?

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