ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 3

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
Revelation 9
18: By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.
19: For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.
20: And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:
21: Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.


Will God "make sure" that these men do not repent?
 

Lon

Well-known member
But there's an extra distinction here. God is the creator. Do you believe that God created (or creates) the future? If so, His foreknowledge is necessarily linked to what determines future outcomes. If God doesn't create the future, who does?

Of course, I would agree, but the point of my address is specifically against the fact that foreknowledge eliminates will. Your question is dealing with His will/determinism and it sounds like you and I wouldn't debate that one :)
 

Lon

Well-known member
Choices do not exist before they are made. For them to be an object of certain knowledge, they must have been made. If God makes them coercively for us (?), He would know them. If we genuinely chose in real-space time in the future, then, and only then, are they known as certain vs possible.

Why do Calvinists have a problem with God allowing creatures to make choices and actualize the potential future. This is how we actually live. Clinging to a wrong understanding (hyper-sovereignty, compatibilism, exhaustive DF vs dynamic omniscience, monergism, etc.) leads to wrong conclusions, circular reasoning, etc.

Even scientists don't agree on this. Psychology doesn't agree on this.

I resisted B.F. Skinner and Pavlov for a long time. I didn't like the 'man is a machine' or is determined very well and for absolutely the same reason you do now. One day, I watched a baby's brain develop on I think Discovery. Literally, nerve endings tied together like reversing a film of ropes snapping. It was organic and mechanical. Our brains are machines (from where we make choices). God knows every tendril of our being. There is no decision we can make without those tendrils. There is no tendril unknown to God. I still see the divine spark you speak of and believe it there, but I also acquiesce that Pavlov, Skinner, and many others are observing truth. How does it connect in science? One cannot dismiss evidence. We are 'God-breathed' with a divine spark/ we are fully known 'creations' God knows us intimately.
 

King cobra

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LIFETIME MEMBER
I think, in a sense, you are correct in the assumption with the question being affirmative, but let me balance that out with the simple idea that the weather doesn't have self-determinitive qualities. At the same time, it is hard to predict and weather men still aren't 100% on their predictions.
I'm going to slow this down a bit and take it one small step at a time so we can hopefully understand each other better.

You’re saying that there is a difference between weather patterns and us in that we have self-determination; we can change course without physical influence. Do I understand you correctly?
 

Lon

Well-known member
I'm going to slow this down a bit and take it one small step at a time so we can hopefully understand each other better.

You’re saying that there is a difference between weather patterns and us in that we have self-determination; we can change course without physical influence. Do I understand you correctly?

Yes, BUT, God knows those choices.

When we make a choice, synapses fire. God who made all of them knows the order of firing and not one exists that He doesn't know.

Okay, so you make a choice as simple as Spaghetti or Steak.
What fires the order in the synapse? 1) Your body's needs. We have cravings when our bodies need something. We may need the veggies and acids or we may need the protein. Nothing really magical there.
2) Preference 3) Proximatey to the last time we had each 4) circumstance upon the last time with either.
There are many more, but God knows each and every one of them so that we really cannot choose without Him knowing but His knowing certainly absolutely doesn't 'have' to determine the outcome though we all agree it is His world, we are His creation, He can do what He wishes, even to hedging and molding our choices, especially as believers.
 

godrulz

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
Skinner and Pavlov have limited truth and application. Much of their thinking is contrary to biblical ideas of the image of God and personal responsibility and freedom. Secular behavioralism is too close to theological determinism. Both miss the mark of solid truth.
 

andyc

New member
Daniel 11
6: And in the end of years they shall join themselves together; for the king's daughter of the south shall come to the king of the north to make an agreement: but she shall not retain the power of the arm; neither shall he stand, nor his arm: but she shall be given up, and they that brought her, and he that begat her, and he that strengthened her in these times.

Does she have a choice to make an agreement or not?

Of course.
God is only saying what will happen because he has seen it from eternity (Dan 10:14 see also Rev 1:19, 4:1, 22:6).
 

andyc

New member
Yes, BUT, God knows those choices.

When we make a choice, synapses fire. God who made all of them knows the order of firing and not one exists that He doesn't know.

Okay, so you make a choice as simple as Spaghetti or Steak.
What fires the order in the synapse? 1) Your body's needs. We have cravings when our bodies need something. We may need the veggies and acids or we may need the protein. Nothing really magical there.
2) Preference 3) Proximatey to the last time we had each 4) circumstance upon the last time with either.
There are many more, but God knows each and every one of them so that we really cannot choose without Him knowing but His knowing certainly absolutely doesn't 'have' to determine the outcome though we all agree it is His world, we are His creation, He can do what He wishes, even to hedging and molding our choices, especially as believers.

So, would it be correct according to you to say that, when it comes to the spiritual choices we make, God knows what we will choose, and he even influences us to make the right choice, even if he already knows we are ultimately going to make the wrong choice?
 

philosophizer

New member
Of course, I would agree, but the point of my address is specifically against the fact that foreknowledge eliminates will. Your question is dealing with His will/determinism and it sounds like you and I wouldn't debate that one :)

Hang on a sec, maybe I wasn't clear.

If God knows the future with 100% certainty, then He either created it directly (as in being outside of time) or He created it indirectly (as a sure result from His first cause). Those are the only two options because He is the Creator God.

If you don't like those two options then you can alter the conditions of the statement in two ways. First, maybe He's not the Creator. If that's so, then certainly, He could be outside of time and viewing as much of the future as He wants without having a hand in it. But if that's the case then someone else must be the Creator God.

Second, maybe he doesn't know the future with 100% certainty. If that's so, then certainly, He must not be the one determining the entire future.


In short, IF He is the Creator AND He knows our choices with 100% certainty THEN He created (caused) those choices by one means or another.
 

penofareadywriter

New member
No, he is trying to say that determinism isn't the only means of foreknowledge for God.

My problem with EDF is this; If God had EDF before He (this is important) FREELY created the universe, dont you have the same theological problem that Calvinism does as far as God being responsible for evil?
Whether He "determined in His will" or simply "saw the end from the begining" HE STILL FREELY CHOSE TO CREATE THE UNIVERSE! He did NOT have to create anything but ( if you hold to EDF) saw the evil that WOULD BE and thought "Hey, the good justifys the bad". But just because you can justify doing something does NOT mean that YOU DID NOT DO IT! Do you follow?
I have still not heard a cohesive answer for this yet.... good luck!
 
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Ask Mr. Religion

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My problem with EDF is this; If God had EDF before He (this is important) FREELY created the universe, dont you have the same theological problem that Calvinism does as far as God being responsible for evil?
Whether He "determined in His will" or simply "saw the end from the begining" HE STILL FREELY CHOSE TO CREATE THE UNIVERSE! He did NOT have to create anything but ( if you hold to EDF) saw the evil that WOULD BE and thought "Hey, the good justifys the bad". But just because you can justify doing something does NOT mean that YOU DID NOT DO IT! dDo you follow?
I have still not heard a cohesive answer for this yet.... good luck!
What answer are you looking for that you have yet to receive? The simple answer is that God had a morally sufficient purpose for creating, including ordaining evil. Seeking any more beyond this is a fool's folly, as Job learned the hard way. Trust that the Creator of the world will do right and you will sleep better at night knowing that He is in charge and works all things according to His purposes, whether or not He has revealed all things or not. You are trying to apprehend the mind of God, or expecting Him to give an account of Himself to you, despite the contrary teachings of Scripture on the matter.

AMR
 

Ask Mr. Religion

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So, would it be correct according to you to say that, when it comes to the spiritual choices we make, God knows what we will choose, and he even influences us to make the right choice, even if he already knows we are ultimately going to make the wrong choice?
No.

Better
:


"So, would it be correct according to you to say that, when it comes to the spiritual choices we make, God knows what we will choose, and he even influences us to make the choices we make according to our natures, even if he already knows we are ultimately going to make the wrong choice ("wrong" here being as we perceive it)?
"

God has a morally sufficient reason for ordaining the choices we freely make, "freely" defined as choosing that which we are most inclined to choose according to our natures.


AMR
 

penofareadywriter

New member
Do you have children? If so, did you know beforehand that they would do wrong, hurt people, get hurt, and eventually die?

But, you still chose to have them?

I had this debate debate with asureanceagent. Here is my problem; lets say the parents of Hitler had EDF so that they were CERTAIN he would be guilty of murdering thousands apon thousands of Jews(not to mention everything else) and they had control of exacly WHEN he would be conceived and they STILL CHOSE TO HAVE SEX AT THAT TIME WITH THE INTENT OF HAVING HIM I would say yes, they are ultimitly responsable for Hitlers actions. (Sorry for the long sentanse!)
If I am way off of where you were headed, let me know.
The open view would say(and what I think you were going to say) God, just like us, RISKS bringing people into the world FOR THE SAKE OF LOVE. I agree with this. But God would not be risking anything if He had EDF. Do you follow.....
 

penofareadywriter

New member
if I give the keys to my car to my friend and sence I have EDF I know that as soon as he drives down the road He will die in a wreck, I would be ultimitly acountible for his death because I KNEW HE WOULD DIE I COULD HAVE PREVENTED IT.
 

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
if I give the keys to my car to my friend and sence I have EDF I know that as soon as he drives down the road He will die in a wreck, I would be ultimitly acountible for his death because I KNEW HE WOULD DIE I COULD HAVE PREVENTED IT.

Why didn't God steer the two planes away from the World Trade Center? He could see them heading directly toward the towers. He could have prevented it.
 
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