User Tag List

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 33

Thread: Was Faith Plus Works Required For Salvation Under the Law?

  1. #16
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    San Luis Potosi,Mexico
    Posts
    9,887
    Thanks
    1,087
    Thanked 7,419 Times in 4,815 Posts

    Mentioned
    82 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    2147780
    Quote Originally Posted by heir View Post
    1 Peter 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

    1 Peter 1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
    In the following verse Paul is addressing those who already enjoy the salvation of their souls:

    "And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed" (Ro.13:11).

    Here Paul is not saying that the salvation of their souls remains in the future but instead he is speaking about the time when their mortal body will put on immorality at the rapture. So it is that way that a "salvation" remains in the future.

    And that is exactly what the two verses of which you quoted above are speaking.

    Quote Originally Posted by heir View Post
    1 Peter 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
    Here the Greek word translated "receiving" is in the "present" tense. Peter is telling them that they already have received the end or result of their faith, which is the "salvation of their soul. This translation clears up the meaning:

    "for you are receiving the end result of your faith, the salvation of your souls" (1 Pet.1:9; NIV).

    I answered all of your verses but you just ignored mine which prove that these Christians were already saved:

    "Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot" (1 Pet.1:18-19).

    These Christians were already "redeemed" by the blood of the Lord Jesus but despite this fact you continue to argue that they were not saved. You must not know what 'redemption" is about.

    You also ignored these words which also demonstrates that these Christians were already saved:

    "Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed" (1 Pet.2:24).

    Even though their sins have been taken away you still insist that they were not yet saved. And here is another verse written to the same Christians which demonstrate that they were already saved:

    "And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son" (1 Jn.5:11).

    They have been given eternal life and that life is in the Son. But you argue that they are not saved yet!

  2. The Following User Says Thank You to Jerry Shugart For Your Post:

    Tambora (August 8th, 2017)

  3. #17
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    San Luis Potosi,Mexico
    Posts
    9,887
    Thanks
    1,087
    Thanked 7,419 Times in 4,815 Posts

    Mentioned
    82 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    2147780
    Quote Originally Posted by heir View Post
    Acts 15:11 KJV "shall be saved" does not equal the "are saved" to those who trusted the Lord believing the gospel Paul preached and declared in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV anymore than Acts 10:35 KJV equals Titus 3:5 KJV!
    This is the better translation:

    "We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are"
    (Acts 15:11; NIV).

    Here the Greek word translated "we are saved" is in the "aorist" tense and this defines that tense:

    "The aorist tense is characterized by its emphasis on punctiliar action; that is, the concept of the verb is considered without regard for past, present, or future time. There is no direct or clear English equivalent for this tense, though it is generally rendered as a simple past tense in most translation"
    (The Blue Letter Bible).

    So Peter uses a tense that is saying that their salvation, whenever it happens, is on the principle of grace. And since Peter makes it plain at 1 Peter 1:18-19 that these Christians have already been redeemed by the blood of the Lord Jesus it is obvious that they are already saved.

    Quote Originally Posted by heir View Post
    Why are you running to Paul to prove Peter?
    Why would you object, especially since Paul is here speaking about how those who lived under the law were saved?:

    "Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).

    According to Paul, those under the law are saved on the principle of "grace" and their salvation is received by "faith." And surely you would not object to my quoting Paul where he explains the principle of salvation by grace, would you?:

    "Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt" (Ro.4:4).[/INDENT]

    If salvation is dependent on "works" then it cannot be described as being of grace. And even though Paul makes it plain that those under the law were saved by grace you stand reason on its head and argue that they could not be saved apart from works.

    Quote Originally Posted by heir View Post
    You should be looking for what it is that Peter preached to Cornelius and his house in Acts 10.
    It is evident that Peter was preaching the identity of the Lord Jesus to Cornelius, that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. And even before Peter finished that sermon Cornelius had come to the conclusion that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. And at that moment he was born of God:

    "Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?" (1 Jn.5:1-5).

    Cornelius was born of God the moment when he believed that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. Immediately the Holy Spirit fell on him and he began to speak in tongues.

    Surely he was saved at that time because then he received life:

    "And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name"
    (Jn.20:30-31).

    The gospel message which Cornelius heard preached was the same message which was preached to the Jews who lived under the law. And the moment when the Jewish Christians believed that message they were saved by grace through faith.

    But you deny that they were even saved. And despite the fact that Paul makes it clear that those under the law were saved by grace through faith you continue to insist that they could not be saved apart from works.
    Last edited by Jerry Shugart; November 30th, 2016 at 11:25 PM.

  4. The Following User Says Thank You to Jerry Shugart For Your Post:

    Tambora (August 8th, 2017)

  5. #18
    TOL Legend beloved57's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    ATL
    Posts
    17,228
    Thanks
    266
    Thanked 987 Times in 951 Posts

    Blog Entries
    2
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    51042
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    No, it is believing which brings life:

    "And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name" (Jn.20:30-31).
    Those in the flesh cant Please God Rom 8:8. That means they cant believe Heb 11:6
    "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
    preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
    called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
    a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

    Charles Spurgeon !

  6. #19
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    San Luis Potosi,Mexico
    Posts
    9,887
    Thanks
    1,087
    Thanked 7,419 Times in 4,815 Posts

    Mentioned
    82 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    2147780
    Quote Originally Posted by beloved57 View Post
    Those in the flesh cant Please God Rom 8:8. That means they cant believe Heb 11:6
    By the context we can see that Paul is speaking about Christians being in the flesh:

    "Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live" (Ro.8:12-13).

    If a Christian lives after the flesh and are not led by the Spirit then they cannot please God.

  7. The Following User Says Thank You to Jerry Shugart For Your Post:

    Tambora (August 8th, 2017)

  8. #20
    TOL Legend
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Posts
    13,627
    Thanks
    370
    Thanked 3,294 Times in 2,467 Posts

    Blog Entries
    1
    Mentioned
    26 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    1111801
    Yes indeed to your last two posts above your last one Jerry - note...

    Romans 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

    1 Peter 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

  9. The Following User Says Thank You to Danoh For Your Post:

    Jerry Shugart (November 30th, 2016)

  10. #21
    TOL Legend beloved57's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    ATL
    Posts
    17,228
    Thanks
    266
    Thanked 987 Times in 951 Posts

    Blog Entries
    2
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    51042
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    By the context we can see that Paul is speaking about Christians being in the flesh:
    "Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live" (Ro.8:12-13).

    If a Christian lives after the flesh and are not led by the Spirit then they cannot please God.
    Those in the flesh cannot please God. Everyone by nature are in the flesh !

    Paul plainly says believers are not in the flesh Rom 8:9

    But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
    "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
    preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
    called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
    a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

    Charles Spurgeon !

  11. #22
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    San Luis Potosi,Mexico
    Posts
    9,887
    Thanks
    1,087
    Thanked 7,419 Times in 4,815 Posts

    Mentioned
    82 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    2147780
    Quote Originally Posted by beloved57 View Post
    Paul plainly says believers are not in the flesh Rom 8:9

    [FONT="]But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.[/FONT]
    Of course at that time these Christians were not in the flesh because they were reading Paul's epistle.

    but you just IGNORED the verses which demonstrate that a Christian can indeed walk after the flesh.

  12. The Following User Says Thank You to Jerry Shugart For Your Post:

    Tambora (August 8th, 2017)

  13. #23
    TOL Legend beloved57's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    ATL
    Posts
    17,228
    Thanks
    266
    Thanked 987 Times in 951 Posts

    Blog Entries
    2
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    51042
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Of course at that time these Christians were not in the flesh because they were reading Paul's epistle.

    but you just IGNORED the verses which demonstrate that a Christian can indeed walk after the flesh.
    So, you can't be a believer,with the Spirit of God in you and be in the flesh. So those in the flesh are the unregenerate without the Spirit. They can't please God!
    "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
    preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
    called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
    a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

    Charles Spurgeon !

  14. #24
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    San Luis Potosi,Mexico
    Posts
    9,887
    Thanks
    1,087
    Thanked 7,419 Times in 4,815 Posts

    Mentioned
    82 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    2147780
    Quote Originally Posted by beloved57 View Post
    So, you can't be a believer,with the Spirit of God in you and be in the flesh. So those in the flesh are the unregenerate without the Spirit. They can't please God!
    Is Paul addressing Christians here or unbelievers?:

    "Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live" (Ro.8:12-13).

    Of course these words are addressed to Christians and reveals the possibility that a Christian can live after the flesh.

  15. The Following User Says Thank You to Jerry Shugart For Your Post:

    Tambora (August 8th, 2017)

  16. #25
    TOL Legend beloved57's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    ATL
    Posts
    17,228
    Thanks
    266
    Thanked 987 Times in 951 Posts

    Blog Entries
    2
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    51042
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Is Paul addressing Christians here or unbelievers?:

    "Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live" (Ro.8:12-13).

    Of course these words are addressed to Christians and reveals the possibility that a Christian can live after the flesh.
    Read it for yourself who he is addressing, that's not my emphasis,my emphasis is on what He wrote. He wrote that those who are in the flesh can't please God Rom 8:8. He also wrote to belivers ye are not in the flesh if the Spirit of God is in you ! Rom 8:9 so believers according to Paul aren't in the flesh. That reasonably means that them who are in the flesh are the natural unregenerated man. That man can't please God. Since Faith pleases God Heb 11:6, they in the flesh can't have Faith, or believe!
    "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
    preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
    called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
    a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

    Charles Spurgeon !

  17. #26
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    San Luis Potosi,Mexico
    Posts
    9,887
    Thanks
    1,087
    Thanked 7,419 Times in 4,815 Posts

    Mentioned
    82 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    2147780
    Quote Originally Posted by beloved57 View Post
    Read it for yourself who he is addressing, that's not my emphasis,my emphasis is on what He wrote. He wrote that those who are in the flesh can't please God Rom 8:8.
    It is obvious to anyone who will use his brain that Paul's following words are addressed to believers and those words reveal the possibility that a Christian can live after the flesh:

    "Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live"
    (Ro.8:12-13).

    Of course you do not want to discuss these verses because it destroys your interpretation of Romans 8:8.

  18. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Jerry Shugart For Your Post:

    steko (November 30th, 2016),Tambora (August 8th, 2017)

  19. #27
    TOL Legend beloved57's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    ATL
    Posts
    17,228
    Thanks
    266
    Thanked 987 Times in 951 Posts

    Blog Entries
    2
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    51042
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    It is obvious to anyone who will use his brain that Paul's following words are addressed to believers and those words reveal the possibility that a Christian can live after the flesh:

    "Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live"
    (Ro.8:12-13).

    Of course you do not want to discuss these verses because it destroys your interpretation of Romans 8:8.
    Those in the flesh can't please God Rom 8:8! You looking for reasons for your rejecting the truth of God!
    "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
    preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
    called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
    a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

    Charles Spurgeon !

  20. #28
    TOL Legend
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Posts
    13,627
    Thanks
    370
    Thanked 3,294 Times in 2,467 Posts

    Blog Entries
    1
    Mentioned
    26 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    1111801
    Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

    That there is the same "cannot please God" as in verse 17 in...

    Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

    5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

    5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

    5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 5:26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

    In both, the "can not please God" is the issue of finding oneself unable to SERVE God.

    That was what Paul was talking about when he then went into the above in Romans 8.

    Romans 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

    He was not referring to the sense you have turned Romans 8:8 into, B57.

    For the fact of the matter is that the Believer has been accepted in the Beloved.

    Why? To what end?

    Ephesians 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

    The issue Paul is dealing with in Romans 6-8 is the issue of what will get in the way of the Believer's being ABLE TO serve God.

    The issue is service ENABLEMENT.

    As it also is in...

    Galatians 5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

    Romans 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

    The answer to this sense of failure; of condemnation?

    Walk in an understanding as a reminder...of who you are in Christ.

    Walk in that as the reminder...as a result of what "God through our Lord Jesus Christ" accomplished....

    The reminder that as a result of that...

    Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

    That last part is not so much talking about lost people, as about what the Believer has access to because of who He now belongs to.

    Sort of like saying to someone about to go outside on a bitter cold day for a minute without a coat - "anyone who does not have a coat; is going to freeze..."

    In other words "you have a coat - put it on!"

    In other words - you ARE the Lord's - walk in Him! It's who you now are!

  21. #29
    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    San Luis Potosi,Mexico
    Posts
    9,887
    Thanks
    1,087
    Thanked 7,419 Times in 4,815 Posts

    Mentioned
    82 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Rep Power
    2147780
    Quote Originally Posted by Danoh View Post
    Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

    That last part is not so much talking about lost people, as about what the Believer has access to because of who He now belongs to.

    Sort of like saying to someone about to go outside on a bitter cold day for a minute without a coat - "anyone who does not have a coat; is going to freeze..."

    In other words "you have a coat - put it on!"

    In other words - you ARE the Lord's - walk in Him! It's who you now are!
    EXCELLENT!

  22. The Following User Says Thank You to Jerry Shugart For Your Post:

    Tambora (August 8th, 2017)

  23. #30
    TOL Legend
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Posts
    13,627
    Thanks
    370
    Thanked 3,294 Times in 2,467 Posts

    Blog Entries
    1
    Mentioned
    26 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)
    Rep Power
    1111801
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    In the following verse Paul is addressing those who already enjoy the salvation of their souls:

    "And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed" (Ro.13:11).

    Here Paul is not saying that the salvation of their souls remains in the future but instead he is speaking about the time when their mortal body will put on immorality at the rapture. So it is that way that a "salvation" remains in the future.

    And that is exactly what the two verses of which you quoted above are speaking.



    Here the Greek word translated "receiving" is in the "present" tense. Peter is telling them that they already have received the end or result of their faith, which is the "salvation of their soul. This translation clears up the meaning:

    "for you are receiving the end result of your faith, the salvation of your souls" (1 Pet.1:9; NIV).

    I answered all of your verses but you just ignored mine which prove that these Christians were already saved:

    "Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot" (1 Pet.1:18-19).

    These Christians were already "redeemed" by the blood of the Lord Jesus but despite this fact you continue to argue that they were not saved. You must not know what 'redemption" is about.

    You also ignored these words which also demonstrates that these Christians were already saved:

    "Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed" (1 Pet.2:24).

    Even though their sins have been taken away you still insist that they were not yet saved. And here is another verse written to the same Christians which demonstrate that they were already saved:

    "And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son" (1 Jn.5:11).

    They have been given eternal life and that life is in the Son. But you argue that they are not saved yet!
    Good, solid post; Jerry.

    Or as Paul had described Israel's Believing Remnant...

    But some insist on fusing together an Believing Israelite's PERSONAL salvation with the Nation Israel's COLLECTIVE salvation.

    There is this...

    Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

    And there is this...

    Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
About us
Since 1997 TheologyOnline (TOL) has been one of the most popular theology forums on the internet. On TOL we encourage spirited conversation about religion, politics, and just about everything else.

follow us