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Thread: Was Faith Plus Works Required For Salvation Under the Law?

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    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Was Faith Plus Works Required For Salvation Under the Law?

    Let us look at this passage from the Bible which forbids the idea that under the Law both faith and works were necessary for salvation:

    "Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).

    In this verse the Lord Jesus was addressing Jews who lived under the Law. Here the Greek word translated "believes" and the Greek word translated "has" are both in the "present" tense.

    In The Blue Letter Bible we read the following meaning of the present tense:

    "The present tense represents a simple statement of fact or reality viewed as occurring in actual time. In most cases this corresponds directly with the English present tense."

    Therefore, John 5:24 is saying that those who were believing at the time the Lord Jesus spoke those words had already received eternal life. That is what is meant as something being "viewed as occuring in actual time."

    So once a person believes he receives eternal life. Anything which happens to anyone after he believes cannot contribute in any way to that person's receiving eternal life. And in the first epistle of John we can see that John is addressing those who have already received eternal life:

    "And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son" (1 Jn.5:11).

    Those who believed were given eternal life and here is what the Lord Jesus said about those to whom He gives eternal life:

    "And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand" (Jn.10:28).

    When we consider the words of the Lord Jesus quoted in this post it is evident that the Jews who lived under the Law were saved by faith alone and once they were saved they enjoyed eternal security.

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    TOL Legend Jerry Shugart's Avatar
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    Those who lived under the Law were saved by grace through faith:

    "Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).

    The Apostle Peter, who lived under the Law, stated in no uncertain terms that his salvation was on the principle of grace:

    "But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we are saved, even as they"
    (Acts 15:11).

    In the following two verses Paul makes it plain that "works" and "grace" are mutually exclusive:

    "Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt"
    (Ro.4:4).

    "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast" (Eph.2:8-9).

    There are many in the Mid Acts Dispensation community who teach that those who lived under the Law could not be saved apart from "works." However, the Scriptures reveal that their salvation was on the principle of grace, and if it is of works then it cannot be said to be by grace.

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    Israel's salvation was/will be dependent upon them doing something by faith (James 2:18 KJV):

    Repent, and believe the gospel (Mark 1:4 KJV) by baptism of repentance for the remission of sins (Mark 1:4 KJV, Mark 16:16 KJV, Acts 2:38 KJV), keep the commandments (John 14:15 KJV, Matthew 23:2-3 KJV, John 15:5-10 KJV), endure to the end to be saved (Matthew 10:22 KJV), go through the trial of their faith (1 Peter 1:7 KJV), receiving the end of their faith, even the salvation of their souls (1 Peter 1:9 KJV). That salvation is of the grace that "should" come unto them (Acts 15:11 KJV "shall be saved" not "are saved" like Jerry quotes from a corrupted word of God, 1 Peter 1:10 KJV). They look forward that their sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord (Acts 3:19-21 KJV).

    That's not even close to the good news of our salvation! We're in the "but now" where the righteousness of God without the law by the faith of Jesus Christ is unto all and upon all them that believe (Romans 3:21-22 KJV). To be saved today is to trust the Lord believing the gospel of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV) which is where the righteousness of God is revealed (Romans 1:16-17 KJV). Those who have trusted the Lord today having believed the gospel of Christ "are saved" presently (1 Corinthians 1:18 KJV, 1 Corinthians 15:2 KJV, Ephesians 2:5 KJV, Ephesians 2:8 KJV). We are saved not by works of righteousness which we have done (Romans 4:4-5 KJV, Titus 3:4-7 KJV). We are baptized BY one Spirit into one Body (1 Corinthians 12:13 KJV, which is the one baptism of Ephesians 4:5 KJV). We have now received the atonement (Romans 5:11 KJV). We're not waiting for it! PTL!
    2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

    Paul defines the word of truth as the gospel of your salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV, Ephesians 1:13 KJV). Now, study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed by rightly dividing it!

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    Quote Originally Posted by heir View Post
    Israel's salvation was/will be dependent upon them doing something by faith (James 2:18 KJV):
    You overlook what James said here in regard to how salvation comes to these Christians:

    "Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures" (Jms.1:18).

    It is word of truth and nothing else by which these Christians were born of God. And Peter also makes it plain that these people are "born again" by the gospel:

    "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God...And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you"
    (1 Pet.1:23,25).

    Quote Originally Posted by heir View Post
    We have now received the atonement (Romans 5:11 KJV). We're not waiting for it! PTL!
    Are you not aware that these Christians have already been redeemed by the blood of the Lord Jesus, as witnessed by what Peter said here?:

    "Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot" (1 Pet.1:18-19).

    Do you really think that these people are not yet saved? Do you really think that the sins of these Christians have not yet been atoned for, especially with Peter's following words in view?:

    "Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed"
    (1 Pet.2:24).

    Quote Originally Posted by heir View Post
    That salvation is of the grace that "should" come unto them (Acts 15:11
    Do you deny that those who lived under the Law were saved on the principle of grace through faith, as witnessed by what Paul wrote here??:

    "Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all"
    (Ro.4:16).

    In the following two verses Paul makes it plain that "works" and "grace" are mutually exclusive:

    "Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt" (Ro.4:4).

    "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast"
    (Eph.2:8-9).

    Do you believe that "works" and "grace" are mutually exclusive?

    Of course they are. And since those under the law were saved by grace through faith it is evident that "works" played no part in their salvation.
    Last edited by Jerry Shugart; November 29th, 2016 at 05:34 PM.

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    Yep, Jerry

    1 Peter 2:24 is right out of Isaiah 53, and also matches Romans 6.

    Just as Acts 15:8-11 is in the sense of Galatians 2:14-17.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Danoh View Post
    Yep, Jerry

    1 Peter 2:24 is right out of Isaiah 53, and also matches Romans 6.

    Just as Acts 15:8-11 is in the sense of Galatians 2:14-17.
    Fraud
    1 Corinthians 15:1-2 KJV - 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV -


    Colossians 1:13-14 KJV - Colossians 1:15-16 KJV - Colossians 1:17-18 KJV -

    Colossians 1:19-20 KJV - Colossians 1:21-22 KJV - Colossians 1:23 KJV -

    Colossians 1:25-26 KJV 27, 28, 29 - Ephesians 1:7 KJV - Ephesians 1:12-13, 14 -



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    After all these years, Jerry can't see that the requirements for Israel to be saved were different than the requirements for us even though that's exactly what the scriptures show. He also has a hard time with the timing of the atonement being different for Israel than it is for us even though that's what the scriptures show.
    2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

    Paul defines the word of truth as the gospel of your salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV, Ephesians 1:13 KJV). Now, study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed by rightly dividing it!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Let us look at this passage from the Bible which forbids the idea that under the Law both faith and works were necessary for salvation:

    "Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).

    In this verse the Lord Jesus was addressing Jews who lived under the Law. Here the Greek word translated "believes" and the Greek word translated "has" are both in the "present" tense.

    In The Blue Letter Bible we read the following meaning of the present tense:

    "The present tense represents a simple statement of fact or reality viewed as occurring in actual time. In most cases this corresponds directly with the English present tense."

    Therefore, John 5:24 is saying that those who were believing at the time the Lord Jesus spoke those words had already received eternal life. That is what is meant as something being "viewed as occuring in actual time."

    So once a person believes he receives eternal life. Anything which happens to anyone after he believes cannot contribute in any way to that person's receiving eternal life. And in the first epistle of John we can see that John is addressing those who have already received eternal life:

    "And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son" (1 Jn.5:11).

    Those who believed were given eternal life and here is what the Lord Jesus said about those to whom He gives eternal life:

    "And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand" (Jn.10:28).

    When we consider the words of the Lord Jesus quoted in this post it is evident that the Jews who lived under the Law were saved by faith alone and once they were saved they enjoyed eternal security.
    Only problem is that they which are in the flesh can't please God Rom 8:8. And believing pleases God Heb 11:6.

    That means one has to already be born again with spiritual and eternal life before they can believe!
    "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
    preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
    called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
    a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

    Charles Spurgeon !

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    You overlook what James said here in regard to how salvation comes to these Christians:

    "Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures" (Jms.1:18).
    James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

    James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

    James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

    James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

    James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

    James 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

    James 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

    James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
    2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

    Paul defines the word of truth as the gospel of your salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV, Ephesians 1:13 KJV). Now, study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed by rightly dividing it!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
    Do you really think that these people are not yet saved?
    1 Peter 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

    1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

    1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

    1 Peter 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

    1 Peter 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

    1 Peter 1:6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:

    1 Peter 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

    1 Peter 1:8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:

    1 Peter 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

    1 Peter 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

    1 Peter 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

    1 Peter 1:12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

    1 Peter 1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
    2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

    Paul defines the word of truth as the gospel of your salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV, Ephesians 1:13 KJV). Now, study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed by rightly dividing it!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post

    Do you deny that those who lived under the Law were saved on the principle of grace through faith, as witnessed by what Paul wrote here??:
    Why are you denying the passage (Acts 15:11 KJV)? Why are you running to Paul to prove Peter? You should be looking for what it is that Peter preached to Cornelius and his house in Acts 10.

    Acts 15:11 KJV "shall be saved" does not equal the "are saved" to those who trusted the Lord believing the gospel Paul preached and declared in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV anymore than Acts 10:35 KJV equals Titus 3:5 KJV!

    Not to mention looking in 1 Peter as I cited in the post above! When does it say "grace" will come into play for Peter? When will you believe it is when the scripture says it is and not until then?
    Last edited by heir; November 29th, 2016 at 12:43 PM.
    2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

    Paul defines the word of truth as the gospel of your salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV, Ephesians 1:13 KJV). Now, study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed by rightly dividing it!

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    Quote Originally Posted by patrick jane View Post
    Fraud
    Yep

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    Quote Originally Posted by heir View Post
    After all these years, Jerry can't see that the requirements for Israel to be saved were different than the requirements for us even though that's exactly what the scriptures show. He also has a hard time with the timing of the atonement being different for Israel than it is for us even though that's what the scriptures show.
    Why did you just ignore this verse which demonstrate how the Jews were saved?:

    "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God...And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you"
    (1 Pet.1:23,25).

    According to the Bible the Jews were saved when they believed the good news of Christ.

    Does this verse mean nothing to you?

    Evidently not!
    Last edited by Jerry Shugart; November 29th, 2016 at 06:04 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by heir View Post
    James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
    This verse is the key in understanding the verses which you quoted from the second chapter of the epistle of James. The verses which you quoted are in regard to what one man can know about another man's faith. If a man does not see the evidence of another man's faith then as far as a man can tell then that faith is dead because it bears no fruit.

    Quote Originally Posted by heir View Post
    James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
    Justified in the eyes of whom? Not justified in the eyes of the Lord, and Paul makes that plain:

    "What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness"
    (Ro.4:1-3).

    Sir Robert Anderson, the father of systemized Mid Acts Dispensationalism, wrote:

    "Paul's Epistle (Romans) unfolds the mind and purposes of God, revealing His righteousness and wrath. The Epistle of James addresses men upon their own ground. The one deals with justification as between the sinner and God, the other as between man and man. In the one, therefore, the word is, 'To him that worketh not, but believeth'. In the other it is, 'What is the profit if a man say he hath faith, and have not works?' Not 'If a man have faith', but 'If a man say he hath faith' proving that, in the case supposed, the individual is not dealing with God, but arguing the matter with his brethren. God, who searches the heart, does not need to judge by works, which are but the outward manifestation of faith within; but man can judge only by appearances...He (Abraham) was justified by faith when judged by God, for God knows the heart. He was justified by works when judged by his fellow men, for man can only read the life "
    [emphasis added] (Anderson, The Gospel and Its Ministry, [Kregel Publications, 1978], pp.160-161).

    This is the only way to reconcile what is written in the second chapter with what is written here in the first chapter:

    "Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures" (Jms.1:18).

    You quoted that verse and then just ignored it!

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    Quote Originally Posted by beloved57 View Post
    Only problem is that they which are in the flesh can't please God Rom 8:8. And believing pleases God Heb 11:6.

    That means one has to already be born again with spiritual and eternal life before they can believe!
    No, it is believing which brings life:

    "And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name" (Jn.20:30-31).

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