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Thread: War on Christmas

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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidK View Post
    Zecharias was of the order of Abijah, which served during the 4th month. His visitation was during his service, and John was conceived when his service was complete.
    Exactly where is this information found?


    I wouldn't base Jesus birth solely on Tabernacles, but the evidence in the Gospel of Luke points to the month of the fall feasts, and Tabernacles makes more sense than Rosh Hashana or Yom Kippur. Just want to reiterate I hold these things lightly, hence my use of the language "likely" and "more appropriate".
    The problem is that there is no such event as "Rosh Hashanna" in the Bible. Where does the book of Luke point to the fall feasts for the birth of Christ? I also did not say that Jesus was born at Yom Kippur, but that His sacrifice on the cross fulfilled Yom Kippur and all the other feasts.

    Clearly, our Father has appointed the times and seasons to point to His Son, as evidence by His death and resurrection with Passover and Firstfruits, and the pouring out of the Spirit on the Feast of Weeks. It makes more sense for me to teach my children about His birth around the time it happened, and show how it ties into Sukkot a lot more than the winter solstice.
    The winter solstice is not on Dec 25. People have been coming up with theories since the first century and no one is any closer to guessing the date then, as now. To think that you are teaching your children to celebrate on a day/time/season that you came up with by your own calculations is as disingenuous as the finger pointing towards Christians who use Dec 25.


    It certainly wouldn't be called Christmas, a portion of (but not all) Christmas songs would be gone. There'd be no living nativities. But winter solstice celebrations are common enough in cultures that it's entirely possible without Christianity in North America and Europe there'd still be lights on trees, swags of evergreen, red and green ribbon, gift giving and solemn but merry evening gatherings.

    Christmas as we celebrate it is a big ol' swirl of borrowed traditions and Christianity.
    The word "Christmas" means Christ was Sent. Why do you object to that?

    The birth of Christ is not a tradition. The angels who celebrated, the shepherds who worshiped are not traditions. The birth of Christ, the prophecies of His coming, His conception, the announcement by the Angel, the Angel appearing to Joseph, the Holy Spirit inspired words spoken by Zacharias, Elizabeth, and Mary were not traditions. They are actual for real events that Christians point to in recognition of the greatest gift that God has given to the world. The entire NT is full of verses recognizing His birth. The NT was written because of His birth, which was the catalyst for the Gospel.

    Traditions of lights and gatherings, songs and decorations, etc are tools that people use to dress up the occasion. There is nothing more striking than a live nativity, bringing to life what happened 2000 years ago. The old Carols and Christina music being written today are glorious Scripture set to music, declaring the Supremacy of our Lord and Savior and His saving Grace. It is a beautiful festive time of year that Christians revel in as a joyous occasion to spread the Good News throughout the world. Even the secular ends up bowing the knee to our Lord in ways they do not ever see or imagine. His birth is all around us, infusing the world with the knowledge of Christ Jesus.


    I didn't communicate very clearly the point I was trying to make. I'm not saying celebrating Christmas is "of the world". I was trying to say that if our Christian holidays had never been conflated with the larger culture's holidays, it might be easier to see ourselves as a separate people. We're supposed to know ourselves as members of another kingdom, ambassadors and sojourners in the nations in which we find ourselves. When the popular culture looks Christian, it's harder to keep our hearts on the eternal.
    Being a Christian/separated for the Lord really has nothing to do with what the world does with Christmas does it? Christmas is not about being a separate people divided from the world. The shepherds did not just go and worship Baby Jesus and then go hide so they could be "separate" - they went all over sharing the good news with everyone they came in contact with. That is what Christmas is for.

    One of the things that has kept the Jews so distinct in their identity throughout the diaspora is their adherence to custom and observance strange to the culture in which they live. It has been a common reminder to them that they have another home.
    The Jews keep Hanukkah which is now known as the "Jewish Christmas", complete with trees, gifts, lights and goodies and whole lot of trimmings You understand that Jews have no problem with people celebrating Christmas? Are you aware that most of their traditions on their feasts days have been "borrowed" from the secular and "paganism"?

    I'm not a "Christmas is of the devil and we must all return to worshipping on the proper days!" kind of person. Like I said, we still do Christmas at our house. My initial comment was throwing out the thought that maybe ramping up to defend Christmas from the Liberal War Against It might be defending ground we'd be better off not holding.
    I don't believe in "defending our ground". I believe in shouting Jesus from the housetops and if Christmas is going to help get the job done - Hallelujah
    I am redeemed, You set me free
    So I'll shake off these heavy chains
    Wipe away every stain, 'cause I'm not who I used to be ...


    ~ Big Daddy Weave ~

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    Quote Originally Posted by patrick jane View Post
    Just in time for Halloween !!
    This thread was stared in November of 2013.

    Ro 14:4, Ps 105:15

    Is Halloween Evil? Why Witches, Occultists And Satanists Celebrate Halloween And Why You Should Not

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by TweetyBird View Post
    Exactly where is this information found?
    1 Chronicles, Talmud



    The problem is that there is no such event as "Rosh Hashanna" in the Bible.
    All right, we can call it Yom Teruah if that helps.

    Where does the book of Luke point to the fall feasts for the birth of Christ?
    It describes the time of John's conception and how that relates to Christ's conception. It's my understanding that the shepherds were unlikely to be out in the fields with sheep during winter as well, so it's another bit of information that points away from late December.

    We do know that all the law and prophets testify of Christ. The feasts testify of Him.

    I'm aware Chrysostom calculated differently to get to December 25, but some time in Tishrei looks more right to me. Again, I'll reiterate I don't consider this to be some foundational issue. I could be wrong, and don't think it would matter much if I am.

    I also did not say that Jesus was born at Yom Kippur, but that His sacrifice on the cross fulfilled Yom Kippur and all the other feasts.
    I know you didn't. I was saying that it looks like He was born in the seventh month, and if I had to pick from the holy days there, Sukkot makes the most sense.

    The winter solstice is not on Dec 25.
    Four days off! Egads! Would it help if I use the term "midwinter celebration" instead? Or will you point out that technically winter starts on the solstice and ends on equinox, so midwinter would be much later? The point is that without Christ you could easily end up with the secular version of Christmas as practiced in the west.

    People have been coming up with theories since the first century and no one is any closer to guessing the date then, as now. To think that you are teaching your children to celebrate on a day/time/season that you came up with by your own calculations is as disingenuous as the finger pointing towards Christians who use Dec 25.
    Nah, we are careful to teach them why we think it's around there, but not declare it as important fact. It's good to acknowledge one can be wrong about many things.

    The word "Christmas" means Christ was Sent. Why do you object to that?
    Did I object to the name?

    The birth of Christ is not a tradition. The angels who celebrated, the shepherds who worshiped are not traditions. The birth of Christ, the prophecies of His coming, His conception, the announcement by the Angel, the Angel appearing to Joseph, the Holy Spirit inspired words spoken by Zacharias, Elizabeth, and Mary were not traditions. They are actual for real events that Christians point to in recognition of the greatest gift that God has given to the world. The entire NT is full of verses recognizing His birth. The NT was written because of His birth, which was the catalyst for the Gospel.
    Absolutely. No argument here.

    Traditions of lights and gatherings, songs and decorations, etc are tools that people use to dress up the occasion. There is nothing more striking than a live nativity, bringing to life what happened 2000 years ago. The old Carols and Christina music being written today are glorious Scripture set to music, declaring the Supremacy of our Lord and Savior and His saving Grace. It is a beautiful festive time of year that Christians revel in as a joyous occasion to spread the Good News throughout the world. Even the secular ends up bowing the knee to our Lord in ways they do not ever see or imagine. His birth is all around us, infusing the world with the knowledge of Christ Jesus.
    Except it can also have the effect of innoculating the world to the gospel. Those outside celebrate a form of truth, and think they have encountered, and therefore can dismiss truth.

    Being a Christian/separated for the Lord really has nothing to do with what the world does with Christmas does it? Christmas is not about being a separate people divided from the world. The shepherds did not just go and worship Baby Jesus and then go hide so they could be "separate" - they went all over sharing the good news with everyone they came in contact with. That is what Christmas is for.
    Not talking about hiding. I'm talking about how confused Christian's can become when they see the culture around them acting a form of Christianity but denying the power thereof. It's easy to think you are surrounded by people who have engaged with and accepted the Gospel, when really they are just following the traditions of their predecessors and thinking they are saved.


    The Jews keep Hanukkah which is now known as the "Jewish Christmas", complete with trees, gifts, lights and goodies and whole lot of trimmings You understand that Jews have no problem with people celebrating Christmas? Are you aware that most of their traditions on their feasts days have been "borrowed" from the secular and "paganism"?
    I'm still not getting my point across. Jews have, of course, adopted things from the cultures they've lived in, but the cultures didn't start mirroring the Jews and absorb their holidays. When everyone else goes off to work on the days you stay home, it is a valuable reminder that you have a different identity.

    When America celebrates Christmas, it's easy for Christians to think that America is Christian.

    I'm clearly doing a very poor job of saying what I mean.


    I don't believe in "defending our ground". I believe in shouting Jesus from the housetops and if Christmas is going to help get the job done - Hallelujah
    Great. That's not true of some. Some believers feel they need to defend Christmas against the corrupting liberals who want to secularize it. If Americans stop saying Merry Christmas as a cultural thing, then the ones left will be real believers saying Merry Christmas, and that will be more of a witness for its strangeness.
    Maranatha!

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidK View Post
    1 Chronicles, Talmud

    1 Chronicles says nothing about the 4th month being the course of Abijah.

    The Talmud is not a credible source of information regarding the courses of the Levis. It is a man made system.

    All right, we can call it Yom Teruah if that helps.
    Yom Teruah and two different celebrations. Yom Teruah is found in the OT, Rosh Hashanna is a man made event with no Scriptural support.


    It describes the time of John's conception and how that relates to Christ's conception. It's my understanding that the shepherds were unlikely to be out in the fields with sheep during winter as well, so it's another bit of information that points away from late December.
    Luke says nothing about it being winter.

    We do know that all the law and prophets testify of Christ. The feasts testify of Him.
    True enough, but pointing to Christ and revealing Him are two different things. The Mosaic Law does not reveal Christ.

    I'm aware Chrysostom calculated differently to get to December 25, but some time in Tishrei looks more right to me. Again, I'll reiterate I don't consider this to be some foundational issue. I could be wrong, and don't think it would matter much if I am.
    It's interesting that the conception of Jesus early on - 2nd and 3rd centuries put His conception and birth in the Spring. Chrys was not the original source for Dec 25. There were other dates scattered throughout the year. The 4th century solidified the Dec 25 date, but it was already a popular date for recognizing His birth. It's hard to get a solid handle on it with so many varying historical sources. One thing I do know, the connection to the winter solstice is a complete myth.

    ["According to Clement of Alexandria [200AD], several different days had been proposed by various Christian groups. Surprising as it may seem, Clement doesn’t mention December 25 at all. Clement writes: “There are those who have determined not only the year of our Lord’s birth, but also the day; and they say that it took place in the 28th year of Augustus, and in the 25th day of [the Egyptian month] Pachon [May 20 in our calendar] … And treating of His Passion, with very great accuracy, some say that it took place in the 16th year of Tiberius, on the 25th of Phamenoth [March 21]; and others on the 25th of Pharmuthi [April 21] and others say that on the 19th of Pharmuthi [April 15] the Savior suffered. Further, others say that He was born on the 24th or 25th of Pharmuthi [April 20 or 21].”

    http://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/d...ame-christmas/ "]


    I know you didn't. I was saying that it looks like He was born in the seventh month, and if I had to pick from the holy days there, Sukkot makes the most sense.
    It may make sense to you, but in all the reading I have done about the origins of Christmas, that time of year was never considered.


    Four days off! Egads! Would it help if I use the term "midwinter celebration" instead? Or will you point out that technically winter starts on the solstice and ends on equinox, so midwinter would be much later? The point is that without Christ you could easily end up with the secular version of Christmas as practiced in the west.
    Recognition of the winter solstice varies from one culture to another. The association to the Roman actual solstice of Dec 17-23 is still off. The myth is very definite - that Dec 25 was the exact solstice.

    I don't see what difference it makes if there is a secular version of Christmas to those who choose to celebrate Christ's birth on Dec 25. There is a secular version of Easter as well, that does not cancel out the Resurrection of Christ in the Spring


    Except it can also have the effect of innoculating the world to the gospel. Those outside celebrate a form of truth, and think they have encountered, and therefore can dismiss truth.
    I see it from a different angle. Even unbelievers acknowledge the reason for Christmas. No other time of year is He allowed into the secular venue as much as He is at Christmas. When secular TV Christmas progams, movies, radio, decor, store product, etc include Christmas Carols, based on Scripture, as the cultural traditions in this county, the Gospel is heard.


    Not talking about hiding. I'm talking about how confused Christian's can become when they see the culture around them acting a form of Christianity but denying the power thereof. It's easy to think you are surrounded by people who have engaged with and accepted the Gospel, when really they are just following the traditions of their predecessors and thinking they are saved.
    I don't see that as a problem. I do see a problem with considering it a "denial of power" which in context had to with intentional sin. For the believer, the inclusion of the secular only makes the message of Christ more powerful. The purpose of Christmas is to declare the birth of Christ, the Savior, regardless of secular or even Christian perversions. Even Paul said, "What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice. [Phil 1:18]

    I'm still not getting my point across. Jews have, of course, adopted things from the cultures they've lived in, but the cultures didn't start mirroring the Jews and absorb their holidays. When everyone else goes off to work on the days you stay home, it is a valuable reminder that you have a different identity.
    I don't see what that has to do with Christmas. Maybe you are just commenting on the Jewish religion?

    When America celebrates Christmas, it's easy for Christians to think that America is Christian.
    I think it goes much deeper than that. Christian Americans have been spoon fed the myth that the USA was built upon a Godly foundation and the God has blessed her for being so "godly", and now "losing His blessing and facing judgment" for the flavor of the week sin she is appears to promote ..... Not ...... Patriotism among Christians is very high. It has little to do with Christmas.

    Great. That's not true of some. Some believers feel they need to defend Christmas against the corrupting liberals who want to secularize it. If Americans stop saying Merry Christmas as a cultural thing, then the ones left will be real believers saying Merry Christmas, and that will be more of a witness for its strangeness.
    Christmas is secular. It will always be secularized. It's like a snowball rolling downhill. Christmas is almost year around business. Decorations make their way to the shelves earlier ever year. I started seeing it July this year! We do not need to defend Christmas. We just need to use it to our advantage, and I see nothing wrong with that. Lots of non-believers say "Merry Christmas". It tickles me, really it does

    Many, many Christians are being forced to stop saying "Merry Christmas". Back in the late 80s the principle at my daughter's high school would not allow that term to be usedb because of the diversity of religions in that school. When you go into most stores, the employees are not allowed to say "Merry Christmas". I say it often during Dec in reply to "Season's Greetings" and "Happy Holidays". It does not squelch my delight in the season in the least. People will do what they will regardless of how I feel about it all. If one is going to use that as an excuse not to find the joy in the season, it's pretty pathetic.
    I am redeemed, You set me free
    So I'll shake off these heavy chains
    Wipe away every stain, 'cause I'm not who I used to be ...


    ~ Big Daddy Weave ~

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  9. #38
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    I am redeemed, You set me free
    So I'll shake off these heavy chains
    Wipe away every stain, 'cause I'm not who I used to be ...


    ~ Big Daddy Weave ~

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  11. #40
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    He shall reign forevermore

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5UXgs6nvGM

    "He Shall Reign Forevermore" ~ Chris Tomlin

    In the bleak mid-winter, all creation groans
    For a world in darkness, frozen like a stone
    Light is breaking, in a stable
    For a throne

    And He shall reign forevermore, forevermore
    And He shall reign forevermore, forevermore
    Unto us a child is born
    The King of kings and Lord of lords
    And He shall reign forevermore, forevermore

    If I were a wise man, I would travel far
    And if I were a shepherd, I would do my part
    But poor as I am
    I will give to Him my heart

    And He shall reign forevermore, forevermore
    And He shall reign forevermore, forevermore
    Unto us a child is born
    The King of kings and Lord of lords
    And He shall reign forevermore, forevermore

    Here within a manger lies
    The One who made the starry skies
    This baby born for sacrifice
    Christ, the Messiah
    Into our hopes, into our fears
    The Savior of the world appears
    The promise of eternal years
    Christ, the Messiah

    He shall reign forevermore, forevermore
    He shall reign forevermore, forevermore
    He shall reign forevermore, forevermore

    And He shall reign forevermore, forevermore
    Unto us a child is born
    The King of kings and Lord of lords
    And He shall reign forevermore, forevermore
    I am redeemed, You set me free
    So I'll shake off these heavy chains
    Wipe away every stain, 'cause I'm not who I used to be ...


    ~ Big Daddy Weave ~

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  13. #42
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    Light of the World - Lauren Daigle

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cLhaZIBSpo

    "Light Of The World"

    The world waits for a miracle
    The heart longs for a little bit of hope
    Oh come, Oh come Emmanuel

    The child prays for peace on earth
    And she's calling out from a sea of hurt
    Oh come, Oh come Emmanuel

    And can you hear
    The angels singing

    Glory to the light of the world
    Glory the light of the world is here

    The drought breaks
    With the tears of a mother
    A babies cry is the sound
    Of love come down
    Come down, Emmanuel

    He is the song for the suffering
    He is messiah
    The Prince of Peace has come
    He has come, Emmanuel

    Glory to the light of the world
    Glory to the light of the world
    Glory to the light of the world
    Glory to the light of the world
    For all who wait
    For all who hunger
    For all who've prayed
    For all who wander
    Behold your King
    Behold Messiah
    Emmanuel, Emmanuel

    Glory to the light of the world
    Glory to the light of the world
    Glory to the light of the world
    Behold your King
    Behold Messiah
    Emmanuel, Emmanuel

    The world waits for a miracle
    The heart longs for a little bit of hope
    O come, O come Emmanuel
    I am redeemed, You set me free
    So I'll shake off these heavy chains
    Wipe away every stain, 'cause I'm not who I used to be ...


    ~ Big Daddy Weave ~

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crucible View Post
    I remember when people were outraged with Starbucks taking Christmas decorations off their cups.

    Atheists have made attempts at Christmas, trying to secularize it, but then again Christians don't make it too difficult for them
    Apart from Christmas being a disctinctly 'unchristian' holy day that was adopted by the Catholic Church inline with Catholic/Vatican policy in the middle ages for gaining converts from the pagan germanic peoples in Northern and Western Europe, it is largely a secular celebration now and has been since the reemergence of its popularity in the middle to late 1800s.

    Edward Bernays the modern father of consumerism had his work heavily lent from from corporations like Coca Cola who were keen on commercialising and capitalising financially on the xmas celebration. A celebration that incidently in early American history was banned by the Puritans and likewise was also banned for brief periods in France and England because of disputes over its pagan origins. Thanks to propoganda from Coca Cola that was inspired by Bernays who was an expert in consumerisation propoganda the 'modern' celebration of xmas with the 'bearded fat man in his red outfit' was born, along with all the other commercial trappings that encouraged consumer spending and most of all a disregard for the 'religous' element of the celebration that claims to celeberate the birth of Jesus who was postively not born on December the 25th.

    The reality is xmas is now an emotional commitment by many to ignorance encouraged largely in part by the rapacious global and capitalist machinery that encourages rampant consumerism and consumption.
    The religious element of the celebration frankly speaking is irrelavent now as the majority that celebrate the occasion arent religious. For those that are they're equally oblivious to the origins of this pagan holiday.
    John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. 2 This one was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence".

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    Steven Curtis Chapman - "Our God is With Us" [Emmanuel]

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOnk...JVEjbo&index=1

    Our God is With Us

    One of us is crying
    As our hopes and dreams
    Are led away in chains
    And we're left all alone
    And one of us is dying
    As are love
    Is slowly lowered in the grave
    Oh, and we're left on our own

    But for all of us who journey
    Through the dark abyss of loneliness
    There comes a great announcement
    "We are never alone"
    For the One who made each heart that breaks
    The Giver of each breath we take
    Has come to earth
    And given hope its birth

    And our God is with us, Emmanuel
    And He's come to save us, Emmanuel
    And we will never face life alone
    Now that God has made Himself known
    As Father and Friend, with us through the end
    Emmanuel

    He spoke with prophets' voices
    And He showed Himself in a cloud of fire
    But no one had seen His face
    Until the One most holy
    Revealed to us His perfect heart's desire
    And left His rightful place

    And in one glorious moment
    All eternity was shaken
    As God broke through the darkness
    That had kept us apart
    And with love that conquers loneliness
    And hope that fills all emptiness
    He came to earth to show our worth

    So rejoice, oh, rejoice
    Emmanuel has come
    I am redeemed, You set me free
    So I'll shake off these heavy chains
    Wipe away every stain, 'cause I'm not who I used to be ...


    ~ Big Daddy Weave ~

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