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Thread: How freewillism makes God Unjust !

  1. #31
    TOL Legend beloved57's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackbirdking View Post
    Wrong again. I didn't misquote anything.

    He is not only the Savior of "specially of those that believe."

    He is also the Savior of "all men."
    "For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe."


    Study your dictionary and grammar as much as you study your own ideas, take off your colored glasses, then, read it again.

    You have chosen to be blinded by closing your mind to truth. But then again, if I used your glasses I'd probly b the same way.
    Yes you did misquote it.

    Sent from my 5054N using TheologyOnline mobile app
    "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
    preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
    called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
    a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

    Charles Spurgeon !

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    Over 500 post club ttruscott's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by beloved57
    By freewillism i mean those who hold to the ancient heresy that Christ died for all men without exception and made salvation possible, if only men by an act of freewill will accept it !

    Quote Originally Posted by Nanja View Post
    Amen! That's the fallacy of freewillism in a nutshell.
    For if Christ died for all men without exception, and yet God sent some to the second death, that would surely make Him unjust.
    Pre-Conception Existence free will is considered this way: All sinners became sinners by their free will decison to disobey YHWH. Being a sinner enslaves men's will to evil. All sinners can only be saved from that enslavement to evil by GOD's grace through faith, not by any act of free will which is destroyed by their enslavement to sin.
    I Champion GODís holiness:
    - GOD did not need evil so did not create evil for any reason.
    - All evil is creature-created.

    I Champion Our Free will:
    - All spirits created in HIS image had an equal ability and opportunity to choose either heaven or hell by their free will.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Epoisses View Post
    Jesus is the savior of all men and atoned for all sin on the cross. The belief or unbelief of man has nothing with what Christ accomplished. Belief not free-will is the requirement to be saved. Free-will is heretical because sinners don't choose Christ, Christ chooses us.
    Do you believe that or are you trying to parrot Luther? Luther didn't stop there and neither should you; Luther also taught resistible grace. If you believe in irresistible grace, then you don't believe that Christ is the Savior of all men.

    How is the ability to resist grace not equivalent to exercising one's will? If it can be resisted, it can also be accepted; therefore one must exercise his will in order for grace to be effective.

    How can the ability to choose be denied if you believe Christ is the Savior of all men? Unless of course, that you believe all men are saved!

    Are you a hybrid Lutheran/Calvinist?

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    Quote Originally Posted by beloved57 View Post
    Yes you did misquote it.
    Wrong again; and you realize it. You can't quite handle one simple little verse.

    1 Timothy 4:10
    To this end we labor and strive, because we have set our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe.

    One simple little verse refutes your whole thread!
    Last edited by blackbirdking; March 28th, 2017 at 06:49 PM. Reason: spelling

  5. #35
    TOL Legend beloved57's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackbirdking View Post
    Wrong again; and you realize it. You can't quite handle one simple little verse.

    1 Timothy 4:10
    To this end we labor and strive, because we have set our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe.

    One simple little verse refutes your whole thread!
    You did misquote it. This shows your dishonesty.

    Sent from my 5054N using TheologyOnline mobile app
    "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
    preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
    called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
    a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

    Charles Spurgeon !

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    Over 4000 post club Epoisses's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackbirdking View Post
    Do you believe that or are you trying to parrot Luther? Luther didn't stop there and neither should you; Luther also taught resistible grace. If you believe in irresistible grace, then you don't believe that Christ is the Savior of all men.

    How is the ability to resist grace not equivalent to exercising one's will? If it can be resisted, it can also be accepted; therefore one must exercise his will in order for grace to be effective.

    How can the ability to choose be denied if you believe Christ is the Savior of all men? Unless of course, that you believe all men are saved!

    Are you a hybrid Lutheran/Calvinist?
    Choice is an act of the will/intellect. Faith is a quality that springs from the heart. Now one could debate where is the heart surely not the physical heart most likely the forehead region of the brain because it is mentioned so much in scripture. The point being I can choose my favorite radio station and I can choose my favorite ice cream flavor but I can't choose God until I realize that God first chose me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by beloved57 View Post
    You did misquote it. This shows your dishonesty.
    Make excuses all you want; it doesn't hide your failure to acknowledge truth.

    1 Timothy 4:10
    Way down in the bottom of your heart you know what this verse means; and that scares you because you're wrong about God. You don't want any one to know that you realize that a god who created evil might be deceiving you, and so, you're not sure about your election.

    If you will take off your dirty glasses and read the Bible, you'll be fine, just fine. Then you will be able to love Him, freely.

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    1.
    Quote Originally Posted by Epoisses View Post
    Choice is an act of the will/intellect.
    Agree

    2.
    Faith is a quality that springs from the heart.
    Disagree
    Faith is a substance. Many people believe in 'Creation'; are they saved? Hebrews 1:1-3

    3.
    Now one could debate where is the heart surely not the physical heart most likely the forehead region of the brain because it is mentioned so much in scripture. The point being I can choose my favorite radio station and I can choose my favorite ice cream flavor...
    Agree

    4.
    ...but I can't choose God until I realize that God first chose me.
    Disagree
    Did Baal choose the people before they chose him? Joshua 24:15
    Why do you believe men cannot choose which is their God/god, but they can choose a favorite ice cream or radio station?

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    Over 4000 post club Epoisses's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackbirdking View Post
    1.
    Agree

    2.
    Disagree
    Faith is a substance. Many people believe in 'Creation'; are they saved? Hebrews 1:1-3

    3.
    Agree

    4.
    Disagree
    Did Baal choose the people before they chose him? Joshua 24:15
    Why do you believe men cannot choose which is their God/god, but they can choose a favorite ice cream or radio station?
    My understanding of election is based primarily on 3 bible commentaries I use for my bible study (Luther's commentary, Matthew Henry's commentary and Jamieson,Fausset,Brown commentary). Luther was of course Lutheran, Henry was Presbyterian and Jamieson,Fausset,Brown was a mixture of Presbyterian and Anglican authors. I lean more towards Luther's understanding of election.

  10. #40
    TOL Legend beloved57's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackbirdking View Post
    Make excuses all you want; it doesn't hide your failure to acknowledge truth.

    1 Timothy 4:10
    Way down in the bottom of your heart you know what this verse means; and that scares you because you're wrong about God. You don't want any one to know that you realize that a god who created evil might be deceiving you, and so, you're not sure about your election.

    If you will take off your dirty glasses and read the Bible, you'll be fine, just fine. Then you will be able to love Him, freely.
    You misquoted it, then you continue to lie about it !
    "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
    preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
    called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
    a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

    Charles Spurgeon !

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    Quote Originally Posted by Epoisses View Post
    My understanding of election is based primarily on 3 bible commentaries I use for my bible study (Luther's commentary, Matthew Henry's commentary and Jamieson,Fausset,Brown commentary). Luther was of course Lutheran, Henry was Presbyterian and Jamieson,Fausset,Brown was a mixture of Presbyterian and Anglican authors. I lean more towards Luther's understanding of election.
    You believe election is determined by God; He chooses.
    What does that tell us about His character? What kind of God is He?

    The whole question of election is about the sovereignty of God. If you follow your presuppositions to the end, you go into hyper-Calvinism. That's one thing Luther struggled with, and he tried to avoid the end conclusion by claiming it was non of our business. He may have been right except that, if God wants to send me to hell, fine; but that tells me something about His character. He calls that good. Then He says I should treat others good; really? Love my enemies the way He does? The world sees enough of that from religion.

    Your doctrine causes God to be the responsible party for all sin.

    The whole definition of good is...

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    Quote Originally Posted by beloved57 View Post
    You misquoted it, then you continue to lie about it !
    Accusing me does not excuse you. If I'm wrong about 1 Timothy 4:10, so be it. Then God is like you say He is and I might be damned.

    You also realize you might be wrong and are too proud to admit it. It's scary to think that your god, who created evil, is in charge of my destiny, and yours. He can't be trusted and you know it; therefore, you don't know if your god, who created evil, is playing with your mind.

    You will never know that you are elect; and, if you are, you don't even know if there is a heaven. He might have lied about it; after all, he did create evil.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackbirdking View Post
    Accusing me does not excuse you. If I'm wrong about 1 Timothy 4:10, so be it. Then God is like you say He is and I might be damned.

    You also realize you might be wrong and are too proud to admit it. It's scary to think that your god, who created evil, is in charge of my destiny, and yours. He can't be trusted and you know it; therefore, you don't know if your god, who created evil, is playing with your mind.

    You will never know that you are elect; and, if you are, you don't even know if there is a heaven. He might have lied about it; after all, he did create evil.
    You misquoted the scripture, and you continue to lie!

    Sent from my 5054N using TheologyOnline mobile app
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    a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

    Charles Spurgeon !

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackbirdking View Post
    You believe election is determined by God; He chooses.
    What does that tell us about His character? What kind of God is He?

    The whole question of election is about the sovereignty of God. If you follow your presuppositions to the end, you go into hyper-Calvinism. That's one thing Luther struggled with, and he tried to avoid the end conclusion by claiming it was non of our business. He may have been right except that, if God wants to send me to hell, fine; but that tells me something about His character. He calls that good. Then He says I should treat others good; really? Love my enemies the way He does? The world sees enough of that from religion.

    Your doctrine causes God to be the responsible party for all sin.

    The whole definition of good is...
    I personally believe that foreknowledge is inseparably linked with predestination. Calvinists present predestination as arbitrary but the bible presents predestination as a choice by an all-knowing God who knows the past, present and future intimately. God chooses those whom he foreknows. Peter said he was elect by the foreknowledge of God 1Pet. 1:2.

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    We declare officially God is Unjust, if one sinner for whom Christ died, having had that sinners sins imputed to Him, if for any one of those sins to be imputed back to that sinner, after Christ has completely satisfied Gods Law and Justice, and that sinner comes under the vengeance of God, then God has taken vengeance twice for the same sin or sins, once upon Christ and now against the sinner, which is contrary to Gods revealed Justice and Truth ! Gods Throne is established on Truth Ps 89:14

    Justice and judgment are the habitation of thy throne: mercy and truth shall go before thy face.
    "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
    preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
    called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
    a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

    Charles Spurgeon !

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