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Thread: Mad finds itself in the trash by applying simple logic

  1. #46
    Over 2500 post club andyc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by musterion View Post
    The problem doesn't seem to be that there were no witnesses. It says she was caught in the act and He did not dispute that.

    The problem, again, is that they did not also bring the man she was caught with (since "in the act" would mean exactly that).

    They were, in a very real sense, bearing false witness against her by not bringing the man who by Law bore equal guilt.

    Lots of speculation on what He wrote in the dirt. My guess is, He simply wrote Lev 20:10 and emphasized the references to the adulterous man they failed to produce, and possibly also Exo 20:16. There was no way they could spin His reply that would make Him appear guilty of anything, so they slunk away.
    All of that is irrelevant to the important fact that, the law condemned the woman as an adulteress, but Jesus didn't.
    Does this mean that she was forgiven by Jesus or not?
    If not, you must be saying that, although Jesus didn't condemn her, she was stilled condemned under the law as an adulteress.
    Delight yourself in the LORD, And He shall give you the desires of your heart. . Psalms 37:4

  2. #47
    Over 2500 post club andyc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by musterion View Post

    He did not tell that woman "Go and sin no more," He pronounced her forgiven because of her faith.
    Faith in what?

    That's the whole point of the thread!
    Delight yourself in the LORD, And He shall give you the desires of your heart. . Psalms 37:4

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  4. #48
    LIFETIME MEMBER tetelestai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by musterion View Post
    IP and Andy are lawless.
    No, it's your MAD that is the problem.

    You have been brainwashed into believing no one received grace and forgiveness before Paul, and that no one received the wrath of God after Paul.

    That's why you deny the grace and forgivness given to people by Jesus Himself before Paul, and why you deny the wrath of God upon the Jews in 70AD after Paul.

    You're MAD is a mess.
    (1 Cor 1:13 KJV) Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

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  6. #49
    TOL Subscriber musterion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by andyc View Post
    Faith in what?

    That's the whole point of the thread!
    She saw and acknowledged Who and What He was. The adulteress, as far as is recorded, did not.

    How hard is that for you to understand?
    "There is one thing worse than going to Hell. That would be going to Hell and having it be a surprise."
    Terence Mc Lean

    [most will be very surprised]


    Everyone who has not believed the Gospel of grace is not saved, no matter what else they believe or do.
    By that measure, how many professing Christians are on their way to the Lake of Fire?

  7. #50
    TOL Subscriber musterion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tetelestai View Post
    You have been brainwashed into believing no one received grace and forgiveness before Paul, and that no one received the wrath of God after Paul.
    No MAD that I'm aware of believes anything like that outside of, maybe, Acts 28 universalists, who are not represented (afaik) on TOL. But you keep on lying about us.

    Besides, you're the one who says the wrath of God was fully spent in 70 and so we're now in the Kingdom of Christ whether it looks like it or not.

    That's why you deny the grace and forgivness given to people by Jesus Himself before Paul, and why you deny the wrath of God upon the Jews in 70AD after Paul.
    Keep lying. You'll answer for it.

    You're MAD is a mess.
    We'll see.
    "There is one thing worse than going to Hell. That would be going to Hell and having it be a surprise."
    Terence Mc Lean

    [most will be very surprised]


    Everyone who has not believed the Gospel of grace is not saved, no matter what else they believe or do.
    By that measure, how many professing Christians are on their way to the Lake of Fire?

  8. #51
    Over 2500 post club andyc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by musterion View Post
    Show where she was repentant and that He told her she was forgiven, and we'll accept it.
    What's the alternative?

    The law condemned the woman as an adulteress, but Jesus didn't condemn her?
    This shows a conflict of attitudes between the law and Jesus, when from your perspective they're supposed to be in agreement.
    If she's an adulteress condemned under the law, what were her options if she was repentant?

    According to you, there were no options. She was doomed.
    Delight yourself in the LORD, And He shall give you the desires of your heart. . Psalms 37:4

  9. #52
    Get your armor ready! Tambora's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by andyc View Post

    So you think she want away condemned as an adulteress under the law,
    No, silly.
    Per the law, one is not condemned unless proven guilty per the law.
    They were not following the law as instructed for an adultery accusation.

    Trying to do away with the law in this instance is ludicrous.
    The whole ordeal was concerning the law.

    We don't tell our children fairy tales so that they will know that monsters exist.
    They already know monsters exist.
    We tell our children fairy tales so that they will know that monsters can be killed.

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  11. #53
    Over 2500 post club andyc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by musterion View Post
    She saw and acknowledged Who and What He was. The adulteress, as far as is recorded, did not.

    How hard is that for you to understand?
    Because there is no forgiveness for the adulteress under the law. So what was the basis for Jesus to forgive her?
    Delight yourself in the LORD, And He shall give you the desires of your heart. . Psalms 37:4

  12. #54
    TOL Subscriber musterion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by andyc View Post
    What's the alternative?

    The law condemned the woman as an adulteress, but Jesus didn't condemn her?
    COULDN'T condemn her. Without the man present, He would have violated His own Law by condemning her.

    This shows a conflict of attitudes between the law and Jesus, when from your perspective they're supposed to be in agreement.
    No it doesn't.

    If she's an adulteress condemned under the law, what were her options if she was repentant?

    According to you, there were no options. She was doomed.
    The woman may have believed later. Maybe she didn't. We can't know.

    But as far as what the Record DOES say, she appears to have gone away in unbelief. Relieved that she wasn't stoned, sure, and maybe convicted...but no indication she repented, so no indication that He forgave her.

    Sorry you don't like that that's what it says, but that's what it says.
    "There is one thing worse than going to Hell. That would be going to Hell and having it be a surprise."
    Terence Mc Lean

    [most will be very surprised]


    Everyone who has not believed the Gospel of grace is not saved, no matter what else they believe or do.
    By that measure, how many professing Christians are on their way to the Lake of Fire?

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  14. #55
    TOL Subscriber musterion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tambora View Post
    Trying to do away with the law in this instance is ludicrous.
    The whole ordeal was concerning the law.
    Yup. The Pharisees' appeal to the Law to trap Him was hypocritical and showed how lawless they actually were. Just like the ones here who deny what the Law actually SAID.
    "There is one thing worse than going to Hell. That would be going to Hell and having it be a surprise."
    Terence Mc Lean

    [most will be very surprised]


    Everyone who has not believed the Gospel of grace is not saved, no matter what else they believe or do.
    By that measure, how many professing Christians are on their way to the Lake of Fire?

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    Quote Originally Posted by musterion View Post
    COULDN'T condemn her. Without the man present, He would have violated His own Law by condemning her.



    No it doesn't.



    The woman may have believed later. Maybe she didn't. We can't know.

    But as far as what the Record DOES say, she appears to have gone away in unbelief. Relieved that she wasn't stoned, sure, and maybe convicted...but no indication she repented, so no indication that He forgave her.

    Sorry you don't like that that's what it says, but that's what it says.

    Does Jesus say 'go now and stop sinning' to people he has not forgiven?
    All Lives Matter --Marcus Sanford, youtube.com

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    TOL Subscriber patrick jane's Avatar
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    Andyc, Tet and Interplanner routinely don't like what the Bible says -

  18. #58
    Over 2500 post club andyc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tambora View Post
    No, silly.
    Per the law, one is not condemned unless proven guilty per the law.
    They were not following the law as instructed for an adultery accusation.
    They were not intending it to be an official trial. If the woman was caught in the act of adultery, and Jesus didn't challenge this, what would this mean for the woman if the Mosaic law were to be applied?
    Now, if they were intending to take this all the way, they could have done, and she would have been put to death if they were not under Roman occupation. The witnesses would have been gathered, the man would have been brought along as well etc etc.
    What the pharisees wanted, was for Jesus to either agree with the Mosaic law, or be exposed as a fraud. Every commentary on the planet, and every study bible will tell you this because it's so obvious. But it's devastating to mad.

    Trying to do away with the law in this instance is ludicrous.
    The whole ordeal was concerning the law.
    Yeah, the law condemns adulterers and adulteresses.
    Delight yourself in the LORD, And He shall give you the desires of your heart. . Psalms 37:4

  19. #59
    TOL Subscriber musterion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by andyc View Post
    Because there is no forgiveness for the adulteress under the law. So what was the basis for Jesus to forgive her?
    How was David forgiven his adultery, murder, covetousness, etc?

    What's the one clear, Biblical difference between David and the adulterous woman?

    (and it isn't that David was a man or the king, either)
    "There is one thing worse than going to Hell. That would be going to Hell and having it be a surprise."
    Terence Mc Lean

    [most will be very surprised]


    Everyone who has not believed the Gospel of grace is not saved, no matter what else they believe or do.
    By that measure, how many professing Christians are on their way to the Lake of Fire?

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  21. #60
    TOL Subscriber musterion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Interplanner View Post
    Does Jesus say 'go now and stop sinning' to people he has not forgiven?
    He did to her. The Pharisees had already dropped their rocks and slunk off. She had no more reason to be standing around naked in broad daylight.

    Why don't you try to think for once.
    "There is one thing worse than going to Hell. That would be going to Hell and having it be a surprise."
    Terence Mc Lean

    [most will be very surprised]


    Everyone who has not believed the Gospel of grace is not saved, no matter what else they believe or do.
    By that measure, how many professing Christians are on their way to the Lake of Fire?

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