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Thread: Did God Predestinate some to Hell/Wrath ?

  1. #46
    TOL Legend beloved57's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nonon View Post
    I think you're jumping the gun in saying that it's saying that some are appointed to wrath. I believe this verse is saying the exact opposite you are.
    Ok thats fine, you can believe that, thats what God has ordained for you to believe !
    "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
    preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
    called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
    a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

    Charles Spurgeon !

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  3. #47
    TOL Legend beloved57's Avatar
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    nang

    God knew ANY and ALL men created in His image (conscious and morally accountable) would never be able to be Godly or live up to His holy standards, so before He created, He chose to shelter a remnant of created mankind for rescue in Christ Jesus from their deserved destiny (death).
    So do you believe that men and women created in Gods Image and Likeness, shall be lost ?
    "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
    preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
    called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
    a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

    Charles Spurgeon !

  4. #48
    Maranatha Nanja's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=beloved57;4815654]nanja


    beloved57
    Agreed, in fact, God ordained the sins they would be condemned for !

    Yes, He did!

    ~~~~
    My soul thirsts for God, the God Who Lives Forever:
    when shall I be brought in to see His Face? -Psalm 42:2

  5. #49
    TOL Subscriber Nang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by beloved57 View Post
    nang



    So do you believe that men and women created in Gods Image and Likeness, shall be lost ?

    Adam was created in the image of God and all his seed also thereafter bear the image of God, whether proving to be elect or reprobate not withstanding . .

    Multitudes of Adam's seed, created in the image of God, shall be lost due to sin, but multitudes of Adam's seed created in the image of God, will be saved, due to God's saving grace.

    Being created in the image of God, does not make creatures to be Gods, but only makes them morally accountable to obey God.

    Only the regeneration of men to new spiritual life in Jesus Christ, guarantees everlasting rescue from being lost to the second death of hellfire, due to sons of Adam falling short of the glory of God.
    "The immutable God never learned anything and never changed his mind. He knew everything from eternity."

    " The difference between faith and saving faith are the propositions believed."
    Gordon H. Clark

    "If a man be lost, God must not have the blame for it; but if a man be saved, God must have the glory of it."
    Charles Spurgeon

  6. #50
    Silver Member Clete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grosnick Marowbe View Post
    Perhaps it's necessary for you to "break down" that particular passage and examine it a little further? Is it REALLY speaking of "Degrees of Punishment" in the "Lake of Fire" or are you reading that into it? You must also remember, this passage was meant for the House of Israel only not to the Gentiles.
    The passage doesn't need broken down, it just need read. It means what it says.

    God is just. Everything after that is easy. The passage may not be referring to Hell at all and the principle would hold. One way or another, God is going to punish those who's punishment was not imputed to Christ before their physical death and that punishment will be just.

    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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  8. #51
    Silver Member Clete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nikolai_42 View Post
    What if man's sin is worse than he conceives it to be? Is he less responsible because he doesn't understand all the ramifications of it - yet still knows it to be wrong?
    Of course! A willful sin is more egregious than an act done in some degree of ignorance.

    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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  10. #52
    Silver Member Clete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nang View Post
    Ayn Rand was an ungodly humanist with an unrepentant and sinful mind. She was accursed by God and at enmity with God, and is no role model for anyone professing Christianity.
    Says the woman who's mind is broken and who has not read one single chapter of anything Rand ever wrote.

    She was no more accursed than any other unbeliever and far less evil than probably half a dozen authors you have no problem with at all.

    She was an unbeliever and very much did hate what she understood as Christianity but that doesn't mean that everything she wrote was evil or even false. What she got wrong, she got wrong and what she got right she got right. It takes a thinking mind and careful discernment to separate one from the other. But that can be said of any author you care to name, including Calvin and Shakespear and Dean Koontz!

    As to the subject at hand, I believe in double predestination while I deny God is the author of sin. That is because I can understand the difference between ordaining and causing.
    Explain it then.

    God created man.

    Man sinned.

    God ordained both, but Adam is held responsible for causing sin and death to enter creation. Romans 5:12
    If Adam is held responsible by God for that which he had no ability to avoid doing because of the way in which God created him then God would be unjust. God is just! Therefore, your doctrine is false!

    There is no getting around that, Nang. You and all your Augustinian buddies can dance around the obvious meaning of simple English words all you like but there are lots and lots of people in Hell right now, Rand being one of them, because they refused to believe in any God at all because of your irrational, fundamentally unjust and false version of Him.

    "Your code begins by damning man as evil, then demands that he practice a good which it defines as impossible for him to practice. It demands, as his first proof of virtue, that he accept his own depravity without proof. It demands that he start, not with a standard of value, but with a standard of evil, which is himself, by means of which he is then to define the good: the good is that which he is not.

    It does not matter who then becomes the profiteer on his renounced glory and tormented soul, a mystic God with some incomprehensible design or any passer-by whose rotting sores are held as some inexplicable claim upon him—it does not matter, the good is not for him to understand, his duty is to crawl through years of penance, atoning for the guilt of his existence to any stray collector of unintelligible debts, his only concept of a value is a zero: the good is that which is non-man.

    The name of this monstrous absurdity is Original Sin.

    A sin without volition is a slap at morality and an insolent contradiction in terms: that which is outside the possibility of choice is outside the province of morality. If man is evil by birth, he has no will, no power to change it; if he has no will, he can be neither good nor evil; a robot is amoral. To hold, as man’s sin, a fact not open to his choice is a mockery of morality. To hold man’s nature as his sin is a mockery of nature. To punish him for a crime he committed before he was born is a mockery of justice. To hold him guilty in a matter where no innocence exists is a mockery of reason. To destroy morality, nature, justice and reason by means of a single concept is a feat of evil hardly to be matched. Yet that is the root of your code." - Ayn Rand - Atlas Shrugged Part 3 Chapter 7


    How would you answer Rand's argument, Nang? In fact, since B57 is clearly incapable of answering my question, why don't you give it a shot. How would you answer if an unbeliever asked you the following questions...


    What is justice?

    When you hear of a judgment from a normal human court of law, how do you decide whether that judgment was just or unjust? Or when a parent punishes their children for some wrong doing or rewards them for doing rightly, how do you know a good parent from a bad one?

    Is it the parent that sends their child to their room when they talk back the good parent or is it the one who punches the child in the stomach (so as to not leave bruises) for the same offense?

    Is it the parent that gives a child anything he asks for the good parent or is it the one who rewards the child when he's done something worthy of being rewarded?

    Does the same or at least a similar standard of justice apply to God?

    If so, in what way is the God you describe just?

    If not, in what way is it meaningful to call the God you describe just and what does it mean when the bible instructs us to be godly?

    Resting in Him,
    Clete

    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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  12. #53
    TOL Subscriber Grosnick Marowbe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clete View Post
    The passage doesn't need broken down, it just need read. It means what it says.

    God is just. Everything after that is easy. The passage may not be referring to Hell at all and the principle would hold. One way or another, God is going to punish those who's punishment was not imputed to Christ before their physical death and that punishment will be just.
    I really don't believe someone can be "dogmatic" about different degrees of punishment in the Lake of Fire. I have a very good friend of mine who teaches adult Sunday School and he's very astute and in tune with the Bible. He thinks that there might be degrees of punishment, however, he can't feel certain of it. It may be so? However, it may be just a "One size fits all" situation. That's one of those great mysteries that are open to speculation.

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  14. #54
    Silver Member Clete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grosnick Marowbe View Post
    I really don't believe someone can be "dogmatic" about different degrees of punishment in the Lake of Fire. I have a very good friend of mine who teaches adult Sunday School and he's very astute and in tune with the Bible. He thinks that there might be degrees of punishment, however, he can't feel certain of it. It may be so? However, it may be just a "One size fits all" situation. That's one of those great mysteries that are open to speculation.
    I think we can agree on the following point...

    The Lake of Fire will be a "one size fits all" situation only if it is just for it to be so.

    "The [open view] is an attempt to provide a more Biblically faithful, rationally coherent, and practically satisfying account of God and the divine-human relationship..." - Dr. John Sanders

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    Nang

    Multitudes of Adam's seed, created in the image of God, shall be lost due to sin,
    Poor God, He let that which was created in His image and likeness get lost, that is a shame, you would thought He could save them.

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    Nang

    Being created in the image of God, does not make creatures to be Gods, but only makes them morally accountable to obey God.
    I would like to see that in scripture, being made in the image of God doesn't make them to belong to God !

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    Nang

    Only the regeneration of men to new spiritual life in Jesus Christ, guarantees everlasting rescue from being lost to the second death of hellfire, due to sons of Adam falling short of the glory of God.
    I believe all men in Adam originally, before the fall were also in Christ by election, or how could they have been made in the image and likeness of God apart from Christ ?

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    Nang

    Being created in the image of God, does not make creatures to be Gods,
    Adam was a Son of God at Creation Lk 3:38
    38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

    Christ lineage according to the flesh is traced back to Adam.

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    Gods reprobation of men, was deliberate and its active unto the vessels of wrath Rom 9:20-22

    20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?


    21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?


    22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

    Its deliberate, in that just as a potter deliberately makes a pot for the purpose He wants it to serve, So God contrived within Himself to make some men for the purpose of destruction.

    God is active in that He actually fits them for destruction :

    What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

    The word fitted
    katartizō means:

    to fit out, equip, put in order, arrange, adjust

    The word also in the greek is in the passive voice, meaning that they are being fitted for destruction, they are being acted upon, so God is the active primary force.

    Some may argue that its in the middle voice, and that would also be correct, because since God has all Power, men cannot but comply with the purpose of God and fit themselves for destruction at the same time, so they are culpable !
    "... I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as
    preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is
    called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is
    a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."

    Charles Spurgeon !

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    God being omniscient does not necessitate Him being the cause of mankind's decisions. God has foreknowledge, but that in no way means He makes man sin. He is completely just and wise and has no sinful quality at all. A just God would not create a creature with the specific intent to send him to damnation precluding that creature's own responsibility. God knows if I'll go to heaven or hell, but He gave each of us something called choice. He wanted us to choose to serve him rather than being created with that sole purpose and no choice, like the angels were. God knows if I'm getting ready to fall off a cliff, but it doesn't mean He pushed me.

    Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk

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